PresRDC From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 651 posts, RR: 1 Posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 13887 times:
This is the report of my experience on the MS 986, Egypt Air’s daily non-stop service from New York to Cairo. There is precious little information available on the Internet concerning Egypt Air’s in-flight service, except for a few not very detailed reports on Epinions and Skytrax and general declarations about how awful it is. Hopefully, this will add some additional information.
I have started a Oneworld Explorer RTW ticket in Cairo. Of course, starting a ticket in Cairo requires that one get to Cairo to actually start the ticket. My original plan for this was to use a Oneworld Business Class award for 80,000 AAdvantage miles, routing JFK-DUB-LHR-CAI using Aer Lingus and British Airways. Since one of the main goals of my RTW was to accrue AAdvantage miles, I was no thrilled with burning miles to get to Cairo, so I began to look at other options. I knew that Egypt Air had a daily flight to Cairo from New York, so I looked into it and found that I could fly in Business Class for $1200. I then checked First Class and saw it was only $300 more. I figured that if I was willing to pay $1200 for Business, I might as well, just spring for the additional $300 and go in First. After a few more weeks of debating, I decided to buy the ticket, which I did through ITN.net.
Saturday, February 21, 2004
Egypt Air flight MS 986
Route: New York (JFK) – Cairo (CAI)
Departure Terminal: Terminal 4
Arrival Terminal: Terminal 1
Scheduled Departure: 6:30 PM
Scheduled Arrival: 10:30 AM
Total Sector Time: 10 hours
Equipment: Boeing 777-200ER
My car service arrived a few minutes before my scheduled 3:00 PM pick-up and, as I was ready, I left early. There was no traffic and I was at JFK by 4:00 PM. An uneventful drive to the airport – the best kind!
Egypt Air uses Terminal 4 at JFK, which is the newly built International Terminal (occupying the sight of the infamous windowless IAB). When facing the check-in islands, Egypt Air’s counter was the one to far right, facing the Delta terminal. Ground handling was done by Swissport. Although there was a sign over one counter saying First Class, there was no line set-up for the counter and it was in the middle of the Economy Class check-in desks. As it turned-out, there was no line to check-in, so it was not a problem, but if there was a line, I am not sure if First Class passengers can bypass it. Egypt Air does not pre-assign seats, even in First Class, but I was able to make a request for a window seat when I reconfirmed my flight (an MS requirement) earlier in the week. My request was honored and I was assigned Seat 2A. I asked the agent if the seat next to me would go unoccupied and she assured me it would, which is always nice (call be unsocial, but if there is going to be an empty seat, I would just assume it is the one next to me). My ticket was pulled at check-in and I was given a lounge pass and sent on my way (no luggage to check for me).
Egypt Air uses the Swiss Business Class lounge for its premium passengers. Although I asked, I was not granted access to the First Class lounge. The Swiss lounge was nice and featured a selection of cheese, crackers and cookies, along with soft drinks and alcohol. I got a Diet Coke and some cheese and relaxed overlooking the Swiss A340 to ZRH and the A330 to GVA. Not having been completely confident in Egypt Air, I did not cancel my award booking as Aer Lingus uses the same terminal and I figured, if the Egypt Air flight was delayed, smoking or if they made me check my quite heavy rollaboard, I would just go on my award flight. Since I was told the flight would be non-smoking, the plane was already in and my bag was allowed as a carry-on, I canceled the award ticket from the lounge with no problem.
After changing some money, I headed through the B concourse security a few minutes before 5:00 PM. I was told at check-in that I needed to be at the gate by 5:00, and I did not want to risk being denied boarding, so I followed their instructions, even though it was awfully early. The gate area (B20) was roped off and I could see that everyone’s carry-ons were getting a look through. I took a few minutes to wander the concourse and got a nice look at the Swiss A340 as well as a PIA 747-300 to Manchester, Lahore and Karachi, a Virgin 747-400 (Virgin just moved to Terminal 4 from Terminal 1); a Varig 767-300 and a North American 767-300.
At the gate, my bags were given a cursory check. Boarding had not yet begun and I observed my fellow passengers. The median age of the passengers appeared to be 975, most of whom appeared to be Americans on tour groups. There were a few Egyptian passengers, but by far the vast majority were American.
Boarding began at 5:30 PM and I went on board immediately, despite there being no special call for First and Horus (MS’ Business Class) Class passengers. They started boarding my row numbers, but I figured the old people would take forever to work their way onto the plane and I was not in the mood to wait behind them.
On entering the aircraft, which, by the way, was named Nefertiti, I was pointed to my seat. Egypt Air has twelve First Class seats, arranged in a 2x2x2 lay-out. Seat pitch was very generous ( I would guess 60 inches) and the seats were as wide as American’s 777 First Class seats. The cabin was clean, but looked worn-in, although not, IMO, worn-out. The seats were a mix of leather and cloth with a pink leather boundary and a tan cloth center. The arm rests had wood trim and the belt buckles were gold. Seat 2A is the left hand window seat in the second of the two rows of First Class. The same interior colors seemed to be in use in Horus Class. Incidentally, both First and Horus Class are located between the L/R1 and L/R2 doors, the rest of the plane is Economy Class.
Boarding continued for the next hour. Despite having my jacket on my lap, no flight attendant offered to hang it for me or, for that matter, offer me a drink. As our 6:30 PM departure time neared, I was the only passenger in First Class, but two off-duty pilots settled into the window and aisle seats opposite me in Row 2. While the flight attendants were on board when I boarded, the pilots did not board until 30 minutes before departure. Just before departure, I was offered a drink, a choice of various fruit juices offered from a tray by a very nice older woman flight attendant. I was also given a flower. The final two on board where the security guys doing the bag searches, one of whom settled into Seat 1A, while the other (the younger), went aft, presumably to make sure the old people did not get rowdy. I do not know if these guys were packing heat, but, as they were the ones doing the bag searches, they were far from anonymous.
We pushed from the gate at 6:30 PM sharp and I was the only revenue passenger in First Class, which is always a nice feeling. The captain announced our flying time at 10 hours and 30 minutes. The screens in the front of the cabin showed the view from the plane’s nose, which was a nice feature. Takeoff was a few minutes before 7:00 PM from Runway 31L and we were airborne after what struck me as a very short take-off roll. Once airborne, the camera view switched to a belly camera, giving a nice view of southern Long Island as we followed the Canarsie Climb out of JFK enroute for Nantucket.
I reclined the seat and tested out the footrest. The footrest and recline where both electronic as was the four way lumbar support. The foot rest did not come quite to the horizontal, but was close. The seat reclined a fair way, but was not flat. I would describe the recline and legrest extension as very similar to that offered on American’s 767-200s in First Class. Comfortable and nice, but no longer state of the art.
The in-flight service began soon after take off while we were still over Long Island. First, I was offered a hot scented paper (not cloth) towel and the curtains where closed. My table was set with a pink table cloth. There was no meal trays and everything was served from the galley – no carts or trolleys, but this may have been due to the low passenger number (me). I was given a linen napkin and plastic cutlery. There was no printed menu, which I found surprising. I do not know if this was an oversight, or if Egypt Air just doesn’t do printed menus.
The first course was a cold appetizer plate (all plates where square or rectangular) and two warm rolls. The appetizer plate featured a smoked fish product that I did not eat, a pâté of some sort and some cold vegetables. I ate the pâté and the vegetables. I was not offered a drink before the meal started, but was offered one when the appetizer was served. I had a Diet Cole with lemon and was offered a full can and a small glass with Egypt Air’s Horus logo emblazoned on it.
The second course was soup, which was a bowl of chicken noodle soup. It was fine, but not particularly good. The third course was a small salad bowl, offered with a choice of French, thousand island or blue cheese dressing. I was not thrilled with any of the dressings, but picked French. The salad was iceberg lettuce with tomato, olives and a few other vegetables. The fourth course was the main course. I was offered a choice of lamb, chicken or fish (no more detail given) and could choose between ravioli or potatoes as a side dish. I opted for lamb with ravioli. An interesting combo, I know. I was given four small lamb chops with the bone and a nice size helping of ravioli, which was in a tomato sauce and had melted cheese on top. The lamb was good, but, predictably, overcooked and the ravioli was good, but not anything better than you would get from a can. I do not think the main courses were pre-plated as the food was hot, but the plate was not.
After the main course, I was offered fruit and cheese. I was two small wedges of cheese (one a sharp cheddar and the other a blue cheese), which was served with some crackers and some vegetable sticks. I was given a massive bowl of fruit with banana, grapes, kiwi and few others, out of which I just ate the kiwi. Dessert was a tart of glazed fruit in a chocolate shell with whipped cream. The meal service was done very quickly and was completed within an hour of take-off. I suspect that it would be longer if the cabin was more full. Service was attentive with two flight attendants working First Class, but was not up to the level of Cathay Pacific or Lan Chile.
For the bulk of the flight, I was left alone and watched the moving map display. There was a video monitor in the arm rest and they showed cycled films, none of which appealed to me. I slept on and off for the duration of the flight. Each time I went to use the bathroom, I was offered more to drink. There were two bathrooms for First Class, one near the flight deck and the other near the First Class galley. It seemed the crew used the one near the flight deck and kept the other one free for my use. I was actually surprised how big and clean it was.
Our route of flight was more northerly than I expected. We overflew southern Long Island and Nantucket before entering the Gulf of Maine. We passed well north of Halifax and began our trans-Atlantic crossing after skirting the north coast of the Island of Newfoundland. We made landfall over extreme southwestern Ireland and overflew southwestern England quite near Penzance. After crossing the English Channel, we made landfall in France over Brittany and left France near Marseilles. We overflew Corsica and tracked parallel off the coast of Italy, overflying Reggio di Calabria. Over the Mediterranean, we took up a westerly track, passing over Crete and then turning south, entering Egypt west of Alexandria and following the Nile down to Cairo.
Breakfast was served over Italy and was just a continental breakfast of warm rolls, croissant, fruit, cheese and yogurt. It was fine, but nothing special.
We began our approach into Cairo at 11:00 AM local time and overflew the city before turning west toward the airport. We landed at around 11:30 AM, a full hour later than scheduled. This is my biggest gripe about Egypt Air. For a 5600 mile flight, they scheduled a sector time of 10 hours. It doesn’t take a genius to see that that is, at best, an ambitious schedule and my informal monitoring of arrival times reveals that the MS 986 always arrives at least an hour late. If you are planning to connect in Cairo, leave yourself plenty of time.
After a long taxi, we arrived at our remote parking stand. First and Horus Class passengers were allowed to deplane first through the L1 door and we were taken to Terminal 1 in a separate bus. Fortunately, we arrived at a slow time and immigration and customs was empty. Despite having to buy the visa stamps, I was out of the airport within 15 minutes of deplaning (having no checked luggage helped).
Overall, I was quite happy with Egypt Air and would recommend it. It was definitely worth the $1500 fare. Just be advised when making connections to add at least an hour to the arrival time.
Oh yeah, the pilot did not fly the airplane into the Ocean, which is always appreciated!
Jaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 13676 times:
Very good report.
My opinions of an airline's inflight meal service usually have a threshold salad test: If the salad is good and fresh and imaginative, the meal that follows is usually perfect. If not, the meal is usually average to miserable.
The777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6315 posts, RR: 56 Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 13656 times:
Great report! I flew EgyptAir a few years ago, BKK-MNL-NRT in economy class and can somewhat relate to the service; it's very basic but they do meet some basic needs. I posted the trip report here, do a search if you are interested.
Need a Boeing 777 Firing Order....Further to fly...T5, CI, LX and LH 777s
PresRDC From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 651 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 13542 times:
Thanks for the replies.
To answer a few questions:
1. I will not be flying MS back to JFK, as I started a Oneworld Explorer in Cairo. I flew-out on Wednesday 2/25 on the morning BA departure. For those interested, my routing is: CAI-LHR-FRA-DFW-LGA//JFK-BGI-JFK//LGA-AUS-LGA//JFK-LAX-SCL-GIG-SCL-JFK-HKG-AA), Japan">NRT-HKG-SIN-MEL//SYD-LHR-DXB, using AA, BA, QF, CX and Lan Chile. It is a first class RTW.
2. My $1500 was a straight F fare and, the day before my flight, MS was selling F for the exact same price. I don't know why they don't charge more, but I guess they feel they cannot sell the seats at a higher price, seeing as the seats are not state of the art and no alcohol is served.
3. I really don't know whether the pilot of MS 990 crashed the plane on purpose. My understanding is that nothing was found wrong with the plane and there was no evidence of a bomb. That coupled with the pilot's unusual actions immediately before the plane began its descent makes me think the U.S. theory is the likely scenario. I included my reference to it for the purpose of humor. I hope no one was offended.
4. I was clearly joking when I saud the median age was 975. I was emphasizing just how old the other passengers were. Good for them, I say. I would love to be old and still able to travel some day.
MSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6349 posts, RR: 50 Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 13441 times:
Are you sure you didn't see any live chickens in the aircraft? My boss flew JFK-CAI on the same aircraft that was flown into the Atlantic and he said there were quite a few chickens in coach. He was not overly impressed to say the least. He said as soon as the plane landed, every passenger on board erupted into a thunderous round of applause. Interesting eh?
Cambrian From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 619 posts, RR: 5 Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 13377 times:
Great report- I flew LHR-SSH in Horus class in December and whilst Egyptair is probably not the most polished airline in terms of service and presentation, I got there and back in one piece for a good business class fare. I even took my own wine- I made a trip report which I posted here.
Interesting not to have a menu in First, as on my flights there were menus offered in business. I too found the meal service to be very rushed, which then left me twiddling my thumbs for the next few hours. They also didn't serve drinks until after I had been served dinner, and coffee appeared a long time after dinner was cleared away.
I don't want to be controversial, but I am a bit confused as to the title of your post:
Where Few Would Dare
Although it is a good rhyme, I think that lots of people in the US have problems with foreign airlines. I know lots of Americans who refer to any carrier outside North America and mainstream Europe as "Oddball Airlines". I find that really strange, as many of these "second rate" carriers offer a product which far outstrips many US carriers. For example, you were flying on a 777 whereas airlines such as NW are still using DC10's and 742's to cross the pond.
I am not having a go at you, but I am always amazed that people in the States have this view when their own carriers are not so great. I flew BGI-MIA a while back on American, and on this 3.5 hr flight those poor sods in economy only got a drink and some peanuts, and what was on offer in Business wasn't so great.
every passenger on board erupted into a thunderous round of applause. Interesting eh?
MSYTristar, those folks clapping were probably the octogenarian Americans who were about to embark upon their 1 week's sightseeing tour of Egypt for $500 all inclusive.
Horus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 61 Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 13103 times:
Well, like everyone else said, thanks for your detailed report. My most recent experiences with Egyptair were really good. I flew with BA from LHR to FRA(B767) then:
All the flights were more or less on time, the food was really nice and the legroom is excellent in economy class on all their fleet, especially the 777s. But my last flight was amazing (CAI-LHR). There economy class has a 3-4-2 layout, and I was assigned a window seat on row 29. I was sitting next to this really rude guy (he looked African). As soon as I sat down, he kept on swearing and cursing, but I just ignored him. This seemed to irritate him so he kept quite for a bit then began leaning into my seat. All this happened before we even began taxing. I got a bit pissed off, so went to the steward and complained, and without hesitating he went to this guy and told me stop irritating other passengers, but the guy just kept quite. So the steward just turned around to me, told me to get by bags and to follow him. I expected him to take to another seat but he took me to Horus (Business) Class. I was absolutely amazed, and couldn't stop thanking him. In addition to this, the steward told his collegues to keep an eye on me if I needed anything, which is what happened. For the whole flight the service was fantastic (even though the cabin was full), the seats were very comfortable with personel T.Vs and the meals were great.
Overall it was a great experience, and I wish I could mention that steward by name (but I don't think its allowed). I'm looking forward to flying with them in May.
Horus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 61 Reply 15, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 12909 times:
All of Egyptair's F/As are originally Egyptians, but many were born or have lived abroad, which is why some of them speak foreign languages very fluently. The same goes with their pilots who are usually taken from the Egyptian Air Force.
Artsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 36 Reply 17, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 12828 times:
How do you know that is what happened on the Egypt Air flight?
Because that is the conclusion of every single official investigation that was done. It was supported by numerous facts, endless data from the flight recorders, and the voice recorders, and the only people that are questioning it are the Egyptian authorities, who have yet to offer up any plausible, reasonable, factually supported alternative.
LatinAviation From Ireland, joined Nov 2003, 1276 posts, RR: 16 Reply 18, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 12750 times:
Thanks, PresRDC. One question, I didn't think AA/Oneworld allowed back-tracking on their RTW tickets. Did you buy these separately or in combination with FF miles? Almost all of the RTW deals I have seen have "back track" and mileage stipulations. Great trip though, a lot of flying.
Horus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 61 Reply 19, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 12753 times:
How do you know that is what happened on the Egypt Air flight?
The official report has been disputed since day one. The NTSB, clealy left out very important parts which the Egyptian aviation authority clearly stated were possible areas where mechanical failure occurred.
When you refer to the flight voice recorder, I assume you mean what the pilot was saying. In the report the translation 'I rely on God' is used ('Tawakalt Ala Allah' in Arabic). As I am sure it has been explained on numerous occasion this is said all the time by Muslims whenever they face a problem and look to God for guidance. It is not, like what other sinics may suggest that the pilot purposely put the plane into a dive.
I won't dwell on this too long as this is the trip report forum.
Docpepz From Singapore, joined May 2001, 1955 posts, RR: 3 Reply 20, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12624 times:
Interesting trip report. Actually it's the "Where few Would Dare" caption that drew my attention to this.
I have friends who took EgyptAir when they used to do CAI-SIN-SYD. They used Egypt Air on the SIN-SYD vv sectors. They used to charge something like $450 Singapore dollars (US$275) for SIN-SYD vv, which is about a 7 hour flight.
Whereas Singapore Airlines, Qantas and BA charged up to double that amount.
Of course, MS arrived in SIN at 3am and only did it a few times a week which is why they had to charge that price.
On the whole my friends said it was a satisfactory airline which got them there in one piece and on time. (Though really, if it arrived at 2am or 4am it really won't make any difference since i doubt there would be connecting flights leaving between 2 and 6am.)
(On a side note, MS pulled out of the SIN-SYD market a couple of years back. EK came into the market offering daily DXB-SIN-SYD service, and when EK started doing SYD direct from DXB, they switched SIN-SYD and launched a daily DXB-SIN-Brisbane service, while Gulf Air now flies SIN-SYD daily. Oh all the middle eastern airlines taking turns to fly from SIN to Australia!!!)
Horus, if you have not received the message I sent you, could you please contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org? Thank you.
Artsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 36 Reply 21, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 12621 times:
How do you know that is what happened on the Egypt Air flight? ****** How do you know it isn't what happened ?
The official report has been disputed since day one.
The report was only disputed by the Egyptian authorities, every other official body agreed with it. Not only that, the explanation made sense, and they pieced together all the different facets of the case, and everything pointed to the same thing, not just what the pilot may have said.
As I am sure it has been explained on numerous occasion this is said all the time by Muslims whenever they face a problem and look to God for guidance.
Except that he started saying this before there was a problem. According to the cockpit voice recorder, and the flight data box, within 15 seconds or so of the captain leaving the flight deck, the co-pilot said the words you mentioned above (and it is important to note, that the aircraft was in smooth flight, no bumps, and no strange readings from any flight data boxes), he then disconnected the auto-pilot (another odd thing to do at this point in flight), then the flight controllers show that he put the plane into a dive from his set of controls, and continued to say the saying mentioned above calmly. When the Captain made it back into the flight deck, he tried to pull the plane out of the dive (recorded on the flight data recorders, and may it be noted that the Captains actions were consistent with protocol for such situations, while the co-pilot continued to force it the other way. Then the Captain is heard saying to the Co-pilot "What are you doing ? why are you doing this ? (or words to this effect).
Therefore you have a list of items that support one theory, and support it very clearly.
The Egyptian authorities offered zero credible, or likely alternatives, but, for the sake of politics, the NTSB, FAA, Boeing etc, all ran simulations of what the Egyptian authorities suggested, and in each of these cases, it did not have an even remotely similar outcome.
Therefore, you have endless government bodies coming to the same conclusion, based on facts that to most people (except Egyptians) make a pretty obvious, clear and factually supported case, and then you have the Egyptian government calling it all a coverup with zero evidence (and more importantly) zero logic to support their allegations.
Lastly, for the sake of argument, let's say that it was not a suicide, it is surely pilot error on the part of the co-pilot if he did the opposite of what all training tells him to to do, and disregards the captains commands and lastly logic to pull out of the dive
So, whatever way you look at it, the co-pilot is responsible
PresRDC From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 651 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 12473 times:
A few other comments.
1. All the FAs I encountered spoke fluent English. All looked Egyptian. The female FAs were attired in western style uniforms.
2. I am breaking this RTW into three distinct long trips, plus two weekend jaunts. I live near NYC, so that is my base for the trip. The first leg, which I already completed was: CAI-LHR-FRA-DFW-LGA. I did this as my return from Cairo, stopping for two days each in London and Frankfurt. Next, I will do JFK-BGI-JFK as a day trip, mostly because I am not really into beaches and I don't want to spend the money to overnight there. It is a pure mileage run and, with my AAdvantage Platinum double miles bonus and the double miles promotion currently in effect, will earn me approximately 12,000 miles or three times the base round trip mileage. In May, I will do LGA-AUS-LGA as a weekend trip to get together with my college friends. June will be most grueling part of the trip. I will do: JFK-LAX-SCL-GIG-JFK as a week long trip with stops in Rio and Santiago. Then, becasue the fare rules do not permit two stopovers in North America, I will continue JFK-HKG-AA), Japan">NRT with only a half day break between the SCL-JFK and JFK-HKG flights. Once I get to AA), Japan">NRT, I will start an award ticket and fly AA), Japan">NRT-JFK on American's non-stop flight. I will pick the ticket up again in November, flying JFK-SFO-AA), Japan">NRT on AA and JAL as the second half of my award ticket. Once back in AA), Japan">NRT, I will start another award ticket on JAL to fly AA), Japan">NRT-AA), China">PEK and will spend a week in Beijing and Shanghai, before flying PVG-NRt as the second half of the award ticket. Once back in AA), Japan">NRT, I will pick-up the RTW ticket and route AA), Japan">NRT-HKG-SIN, spending three days in Singapore. I will then take the SIN-MEL flight, spending two days in Melbourne, before flying MEL-SYD on a separate ticket, before flying SYD-LHR on the QF 001. Once at LHR, I will continue to JFK on another ticket, saving my LHR-DXB segment for a later date to be determined, but, in any event, before February 25, 2005, when the ticket expires.
3. The rules on my RTW, which is a Oneworld Explorer permit backtracking within continents, but not between continents, except as a transit without stopover (less than 24 hours), when flying from Australia to Europe via Asia and/or when flying from South America to Europe, Asia or Australia via North America. The Oneworld Explorer is not a mileage based RTW, but is based on the number of continents visited, with a minimum of three and a maximum of six. Mine is a five continent first class Oneworld Explorer (fare basis AONE5). I am eligible to use any Oneworld carrier and will be using American, Cathay Pacific, British Airways, Qantas and Lan Chile.