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MUC To LAX: Northwest A330 And Trouble At DTW!  
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6371 times:

30. August 2004
Muenchen (MUC) - Amsterdam (AMS)
KLM KL 1792
10:30-12:00 (10:42-11:56)
Boeing 737-306
PH-BDG (1986 model, msn 1317)
Economy seat 14A




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Ground
Unlike many other trips to the US in the past I chose a convenient departure time this summer with my first flight going out at 10:30. I arrived at MUC's terminal 1E about 90 minutes prior to departure and waiting in front of KLM's counters just took some minutes. I wasn't concerned about getting a good seat because I had reserved it all before. But at the counter it turned out that my reservation on the NWA A330 was changed by more then 25 rows. Though I had had a reservation for 36J it suddenly showed 11A for me. I really hate to sit in the front or middle of the aircraft so I wanted a seat in the rear and the only one left was 33J. Better than nothing and I took it. On the KLM service to AMS only middle section was available and I chose 14A. My reservation for the LAX flight had remained unchanged.

Flight
Boarding was started on time and after people being seated it showed a load factor of about 70%. The 18-year old aircraft, PH-BDG, was painted in the new color scheme which really looks fresh and modern. Listen Air France, just keep your hands off that!  Angry
The cabin was clean, the cloth seats looked a bit worn but though they were comfortable. We taxied to the northern runway and departed in western direction. There was nothing really notable about the departure, certainly the B737 classic is not a rocket.  Yawn
I had the middle seat next to me empty and could stretch out. Breakfast was served, just like most airlines KLM introduced snack boxes. They are green with fruit painted on and I wish the content would match the exterior...inside was a cheese roll sandwich made of dark bread which was not only tasteless but totally dry. Without drinking anything that roll can cause serious problems...but that's the orange juice in the box is for. 'Dessert' was a big peppermint candy which was not bad at all. Cabin crew was friendly but not special or outstanding.
Some minutes prior to landing the captain spoke a few words, and amazingly, he addressed passengers starting with 'Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls...' I haven't heard that before anywhere, I can only remember a friend telling me once a similar experience on Virgin Blue.
Though I had spent a few days spotting at AMS in the weeks before I wasn't really sure about our approach and I kept guessing until the end. I expected we would land at the 'Kaag' runway but on short finals and already being very low we flew a sharp 60 degrees turn and landed on the runway next to the KLM maintenance hangars. Even more strange, we didn't use a taxiway but turned on the runway and taxied back. I have no clue about the purpose of that all.  Confused


30. August 2004
Amsterdam (AMS) - Detroit (DTW)
Northwest NW 053
14:20-16:55 (14:48-17:23)
Airbus A330-323X
N803NW (2003 model, msn 542)
Economy seat 33J




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Ground
After getting off the 737 I first tried to get all 'registrations' around and then proceeded to the gate area for the US flights. I had expected that viewing possibilities would be the same in that concourse but then I found out that the large windows had sun covers all over and blocked off good views. Quite strange only that concourse had these covers.
At the entry to my gate I found a long row waiting at security so I decided to walk around some more. I went down to the ground level which was empty all over but it allowed a nice view at the aircraft. It was N803NW, the third A330, delivered to NWA in September 2003.
Later the row was smaller and I was then questioned by security. Unlike last time flying with AA I could proceed to the gate without an extra search of shoes, bag and so on.

Boarding and take off
Boarding was started early and I soon entered the cabin. I noticed a different, more modern cabin styling compared to former A340 and A330 flights. The cabin looked roomier and lighting seemed to be improved. Seats were comfortable, though the coloring could be more attractive. Why not try dark red or gray seats to better match the new livery? Blue seems to be the standard almost everywhere.
Leg room was quite limited due to the IFE box under the seat but for eight hours it is ok. And for getting audio/video on demand I can well tolerate the box! As usual (and against my wild expectations  Nuts ) my seat neighbor turned out to be an older lady but she was in for a nice conversation.
While our departure seemed to be delayed, the latest A330, sister ship N808NW, parked next to us. Boarding had seemed to take forever, obviously a larger group of people had arrived very late. Load factor must have been well above 90%. Push back finally took place 20 minutes late and after 10 more minutes we turned in for departure. Take off was not very exciting, the A330 was definitely not take to its power limits.  Yawn

Entertainment
Some 15 minutes after take off it was announced that AVOD would soon start but I guess it took a total of 30 minutes after departure for the system to be activated. At the beginning I was close to a shock as it seemed my AVOD unit had a serious problems. Every command on the control pad was delayed by several seconds and I already wanted to complain. But after 10 minutes it suddenly worked normally, I guess it needed some time to heat up.
As a fan of AVOD systems I totally checked every single feature and was impressed by a large number of movies and music songs being available at all time. Some of the movies could also be watched in German and French. I also liked the map sections where you could not only follow the usual flight path but where you also zoom in and out and see even small towns, airports and borders along the route. There were also other features available, such as a view of the globe, night views, city maps and background information on countries.  Big thumbs up
However, my favorite entertainment option turned out to be what's called the Inflight Trivia Challenge. It's a game, better a quiz with questions and multiple choice answers. Topics are general knowledge, sports, history, geography, literature & arts and others and the questions can be really hard. You can enter a name and just take part in the never ending rounds, with 20 questions in each round. The sooner you press the answer the more points you get. Best is that passengers throughout the cabin can play simultaneously and you can play against them. After every question it shows name and seat numbers of all players and their respective results. It was real fun, I almost got addicted to it and I think, after the meal had been served, I played it for four hours. I didn't even find the time to watch a movie - so the flight should have lasted some more hours. It's so amazing seeing that kind of advanced IFE system on Northwest after having experienced their stone age entertainment on the DC-10. But well, some certain airlines continue to show that stone age entertainment is not related to an old plane type...even A340-600s can feature 1980s entertainment as we all know...well., for those who like it...
Just as a side note, it seemed that many passengers used their PTVs and it opposes the often heard opinion that PTVs aren't used intensively. And in terms of quality, NWA's PTVs offered a very clear screen which was no displeasure for the eyes at all.  Big thumbs up

Cabin service
Meal service was a bit late, it didn't appear until about one and a half hours after departure. Prior to that pretzels were served. Unfortunately there was no choice of main course and I got a 'vegetarian pasta'...I don't know if they had run out of the other choice but there were some eleven rows behind me which were served after me. I don't mind about a light meal on a flight but the pasta had a quite wet spinach mixed by and it and the taste was not one which you want to keep in memory. Thumbs down, NWA!  Angry
The salad however tasted fresh, the dessert was a tasty chocolate cake with pinnacle cream on top and berries in between.
Drinks selection was another negative aspect as they didn't have bitter lemon, tonic and ice tea. Just normal soft drinks, though their inflight magazine promised something different. However, FAs passed through the cabin every 25 minutes with water or orange juice which I found very positive. Prior to landing a snack was served, consisting of a tasty pizza bread and pistachio ice cream.
Cabin crew btw were mostly 'seniors' who were partly very kind and partly just 'friendly', not to say 'neutral'.

Approach was started soon after snack time and we soon were on final approach to Detroit. Touchdown was very smooth and amazingly quite a number people started to applause - hey, never seen (or heard) that 'touri bomber behavior' on a transatlantic flight!  Insane


30. August 2004
Detroit (DTW) - Los Angeles (LAX)
Northwest NW 331
19:30-21:18 (19:53-21:16)
Boeing 757-251
N527US (1987 model, msn 136)
Economy seat 39A




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Ground
Immigration could be passed very quickly, I waited probably only two minutes. Luggage showed up fast as well and customs was just another five minutes deal. All the officers were very kind and they gave the impression of being welcome all over. NWA's new World Terminal at DTW is really a great place, very bright and in modern shape all over. It's one endlessly long building and there's even a train connecting the two ends, with a stop in the middle. I took the train to the middle and in the gate areas I found very large windows without viewing restrictions. There were masses of NWA and NWA Airlink aircraft around and they were a tempting sight, though I tried to be very discrete with writing down numbers.
After walking up to the top end of the building I returned to my gate where N527US just arrived. As hoped before, it was painted in the new colors which make the good old B757 appear even more sharp than usual. I decided not to wait until boarding but walked around for another while and returned to my gate exactly 30 minutes prior to departure. However, when I reached the gate nobody was there except two NWA employees and I wondered - they had indeed already boarded! So I hurried up and quickly entered the plane, being among the last persons to board. I went to the very end of the cabin and took my window seat in row 39. Seats looked quite old and showed an ancient shape and design but they still were comfortable and leg room was not bad at all.

Trouble!
Just as I had taken my seat I took out my binoculars and continued to write down the registrations of aircraft moving around. And I had to hurry because there were many! Once within the aircraft I didn't act discretely any more...and the result came fast. Though the middle seat next to me remained empty a girl and her mother in the row on the opponent side saw enough. Deeply convinced that they obviously had identified a registration noting member of 'Al Qaida', they must have approached the flights attendants immediately. While I was expecting push back soon, the female purser came to my seat and asked me: "Can you please explain what exactly you are writing down in your book?" I replied it was my hobby and that I collect tail numbers but she didn't understand. Of course I had expected questions like these before and that's why I had taken copies of the "jp airline fleets" and the latest "World Airline Fleets News" issue. I handed it all to her, along with my registration book and my passport. While about all passengers around looked at me she asked: "Would you mind if I take this all to the front and show it to the pilots?". Of course I agreed and then she walked away quickly. For some moments I wasn't sure how they would react but I hoped the captain would be intelligent enough to realize I wasn't a danger to the flight. However I thought about the option that they might take me off the plane. While the purser was gone, people, especially the woman and her daughter, stared at me. I was starting to get pissed about their "heroic courage", I shook my head, grabbed my binoculars and continued spotting and writing down. They must have been shocked about that but I really enjoyed that moment of writing down the next number while they all stared at me.  Acting devilish
Definitely the flight was already delayed due to these people's "terror fear" and ongoing "investigation". After some five minutes the purser returned and gave me my stuff back: "The captain said it's alright. I hope you didn't feel offended by that but these people were really scared. Would you mind to answer some questions to anyone who wants to know what you are doing?" "Sure" I replied. I felt really comfortable after that...but guess, the 16-or 17-year old cry baby girl just about started to turn on her panic program. She might had expected I get removed from the flight and when she saw I got my stuff back she started crying and crying and her mother got in panic as well. "Oh my god, my daughter cannot go on this flight!!!" Damn I thought, these crazy people delay the departure even more.  Nuts The purser addressed the mother: "The captain has said everything is fine, we checked him and there's no danger". It didn't help, the girl didn't stop crying and the purser offered: "Would it help if the captain came down to you? He will tell you it's alright." The mother replied: "Oh my god, tell this to my daughter!". I thought they were joking, would they really call the captain now? And they really did, two minutes later the captain appeared and said some words to the girl. I couldn't believe all the mess going on. He told her: "As soon as we are in the air you might feel better". He then went back and the girl didn't stop crying. Paranoia is something really bad...

Flight
After a delay of 20 minutes we were finally pushed back and we headed for the runway. The evening rush at DTW was not that bad and the two PW powerplants could soon go to work. We took off into a beautiful orange sky over Detroit and turned west immediately.
Shortly after take off a snackbox was served, consisting of a large sandwich (roastbeef or turkey), mustard sauce, a small bag of peeled carrots and vanilla wafers. I went for roastbeef and I liked it really much. Though American carrier are often criticised for their meal or snack service, this time it's KLM which can learn from Northwest. Drink selection wasn't very bid again but it seems here's where NWA saves.
FAs didn't pass through the cabin very often but you could get drinks in the galley all the time. FAs were very friendly and appeared motivated throughout.
Later in the flight I went to the galley and talked to the purser for a while. I explained my hobby and we had a really good chat. She indeed told me that they had considered to put me on a later flight but then decided against that option. Great.
Meanwhile the girl and her mother seemed to have recovered very quickly. However I was still pissed about them and while walking through the aisle I had my famous evil look on them...sorry, couldn't resist...  Acting devilish
After some four hours we reached the outer LA areas and I enjoyed the view of millions never ending lights. As the plane moved slightly and the gear came out the girl again started to cry and it seemed she was afraid from flying in general...hey, why not try AmTrak next time and let people do their hobby?  Wink/being sarcastic
Touchdown was smooth and the aircraft was stopped quite slowly. As we taxied to our gate a male flight attendant thanked passengers for flying Northwest and mentioned that this flight had been operated in conjunction with KLM and "Air Alaska"...then he added: "aaah, sorry, Alaska Airlines." Well, airline names is a science for itself, right?  Laugh out loud

The first trip was over...though with trouble...and just yesterday I went on a day trip to Phoenix on Southwest and America West, ahh, America Worst...and I got trouble again...watch out for the trip report!  Wow!



Regards
Udo


33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirxLiban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4518 posts, RR: 53
Reply 1, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6218 times:

Great report Udo  Smile

now for some LAX spotting...

incidentally Udo you might make it into some paper for doing suspicious activities!

by the way...scroll your mouse over LAX!

Edited for the last comment

[Edited 2004-09-04 06:36:59]


PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
User currently offlineThe777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6672 posts, RR: 55
Reply 2, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6119 times:

Great report Udo! Really sad and scary in a way with people being so paranoid. I had my JP stolen by a lady in a wheelchair at Gravelly point about a month ago but got it back!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Looking forward to hear more about your trip to PHX.

The777Man



Need a Boeing 777 Firing Order....Further to fly....CI, MU, LX and LH 777s
User currently offlineCOEWR2587 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 607 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5781 times:

Nice report. Some people are such over the top freaks.


Newark Airport...My Home Away From Home
User currently offlineNdebele From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 2901 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5666 times:

Hi Udo,

interesting report, which took an unexpected turn, but...
I was starting to get pissed about their "heroic courage", I shook my head, grabbed my binoculars and continued spotting and writing down.
...it really made me laugh when I read this. I'm sure you didn't make any friends on this flight Big grin

Shame on you for prefering the A330 over the DC-10, though.

Regards, Alex.


User currently offlineGnomon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5636 times:

What a ridiculous incident on board your last leg.

Given the proliferation of airline enthusiasts, one would think airlines would brief front-end employees on what sort of behavior is benign and what isn't. The F/A should have been intelligent enough to know your recording of regos was harmless.

Nice report, in any event.


User currently offlineJAXpax From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5637 times:

Given the proliferation of airline enthusiasts

Aviation enthusiasts who jot down reg numbers, take photos, collect items, certainly are a very small percentage of the traveling public. Certainly not a proliferation.... when you are surrounded by them it seems like there are a lot, but look at the nation overall....


User currently offlineN808NW From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 374 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5552 times:

I think us aviation enthusiasts need to make a speech on TV telling the people of America about our hobby. They need to understand who we are. Common Americans are soooo dumb!  Nuts

I think the rest of the planet's people have a bit more common sense.

BTW, Nice report. Yes people, the A330 IS BETTER THAN THE DC-10! Not by to much though.



All flights have great IFE...get yourself a window seat, thats something no PTV can beat! flew 808 Pacific an Atlanic
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5524 times:

Hi everybody,

and thanks for reading and your comments.


@Michel,
I probably made it into paper at NWA since the flight was clearly delayed due to my "suspicious" behavior. Since Monday I have made it two more times into papers...when police at Ontario Airport stopped me, and when Phoenix Police checked me. In both cases they filled a form. However, at PHX spotting is indeed tolerated at the parking structure.
If I go on that way, I will be a well known person with the police in California and Phoenix...

@Lars,
your jp was stolen? That's unbelievable! You get to tell me more about that next week! Phoenix report is to come by tomorrow or Monday at the latest.

@Alex (Ndebele),
I guess I really didn't make any friends on that flight. But nothing's more important than registrations, once I am at Detroit!  Wink/being sarcastic
My conscious is ok for preferring the A330. I had NWA's DC-10 in 2000 and so I could go for comfort this time. Though it was quite tempting to take it again...

@Alex (Gnomon),
it seems cabin crews are not well trained, though spotters are around throughout the world. At least the captain knew what's going on and that counts. Btw, the police at ONT and PHX knew well about spotters...Luckily!

@Jason,
when I was sent off at ONT airport, the officers told me people were calling in at the police every five minutes, reporting a stranger with binoculars. After that I also thought about it would help to bring us spotters on TV or into newspapers. People should know we are the good guys. Maybe it would help to wear a t-shirt with large "Plane spotter" titles on both sides?



Regards
Udo


User currently offlineLHR27C From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 1279 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5354 times:

Well done Udo, good to hear about the NW A330 experience.


Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
User currently offlineSATL382G From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5340 times:

Well the trouble is the bad guys use binoculars, paper & pencil, and aviation books too. And how then is the non-spotting public supposed to know the difference?

I am curious to know why you continued spotting on the plane after you
were questioned? Were those registrations really that important? Such behavior is usually the trigger for more aggressive action on the part of the authorities. Interference with a flight crew is a federal beef had it escalated just a little more.

And while I don't condone or excuse the girls behavior, clearly your behavior instigated the incident.

Did you know that NW routes to the west coast from DTW have had a lot of publicity lately regarding unusual behavior of passengers? Did you consider that before you picked up your binocs?

I enjoying spotting as much as the next guy.. but, holy cow, we need to keep the concerns of those around us in mind and act accordingly...

SATL382G


User currently offlineWidgetBoi From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1432 posts, RR: 19
Reply 11, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5280 times:

nice report!

jeremy


User currently offlinePatroni From Luxembourg, joined Aug 1999, 1403 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5155 times:

Thanks Udo for your interesting report!

Your experience on the NW flight and SATL382G's reaction have convinced me that I should not connect via the USA on my next trip to Canada, despite a substantially lower fare... sorry guys 'n' gals, but if one should already feel guilty when doing something legal and explainable, there is something going wrong. I understood that you were friendly and cooperative, so in my eyes there is no fault on your side. Sad that paranoia ruined the spirit of freedom....

Cheers,
Tom






User currently offlineWarszawa From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 727 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5098 times:

SATL... what are you talking about?

" I am curious to know why you continued spotting on the plane after you
were questioned? "

Why shouldent he? Last time i checked... spotting at an airport wasnt illegal.

" Were those registrations really that important? "

I take it your not into aviation much...

" Such behavior is usually the trigger for more aggressive action on the part of the authorities. "

Behavior? Sitting in a seat, writing on a notepad, and looking out the window, triggers more aggresive behavior for the authorities? Guess i'll stand next time.

" Interference with a flight crew is a federal beef had it escalated just a little more. "

Didnt know sitting in a seat, looking out the window, and writing information down on a notepad was interfering with the flight crew. I was told only electronic devices had such issues. Must be something new...?

" clearly your behavior instigated the incident "

Well, lets see, the girl is crying, almost screaming, and go's to the FA's to complain, while Udo sits in his seat, calmly, looking out the window, writing in his notepad. Whos the instigator again?

" Did you know that NW routes to the west coast from DTW have had a lot of publicity lately regarding unusual behavior of passengers?

What if he flew Spirit? Then it would have been ok? Ever since 9-11 ANY route... is cautiously looked at.

" I enjoying spotting as much as the next guy "

What? That basically contradicts everything that you've said above.

Cmon' now.

--- Sorry Udo, just felt i had to buzz in here. Totally rediculous.

Nice trip report by the way, how did you like DTW? I was in there back in 2002, great airport, especially the Mcnamara terminal!



Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
User currently offlineTrickijedi From United States of America, joined May 2001, 3266 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5046 times:

Some people just overeact sometimes.

Nice report!!!



Its better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Fly safe!
User currently offlineAviaction From Germany, joined Nov 2003, 256 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5032 times:

Warszawa
Thanks for putting it right. I couldn't have expressed it more clearly. As long as the use of binoculars and a note pad on board is not prohibited, everybody should feel free to use them!

SATL382G
In case you haven't noticed ... or it has slipped your attention, it was Udo who was extremely harrassed. Just imagine ... on YOUR next flight, your neighbour doesn't like the look of you (dark "sinister" eyes, an evil look, a beard perhaps ...) and throws a fit, demanding you be removed from the plane. The situation Udo described resembled a witch-hunt of sorts ... C'mon, despite terror attacks it is still the year 2004 we live in, not the middle ages. What happened to plain old "common sense", to yours and that of mother and daughter?

Peaceful flying to all of us.
Aviaction








German by nationality, European by heart!
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4979 times:

I do it all the time, nobody gives me any S**T.

Patroni-
Its quite obvious the girl was afraid to fly, so dont take a 1 in a million and say i wont fly via the U.S. ive never had a problem and then SATL382G responce was just rediculous.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4953 times:

Hi again,

thanks for all your comments and also for discussing the issue. I was two days offline but now I'm back!


SATL382G,
- first of all: can you show me a proof that the bad guys (like the 9/11) hijackers use binoculars and take down numbers in a book? What effect would that have for their plans? You can be sure, these guys DO NOT do that because they want to be discrete and remain undiscovered. People like YOU think they do...Stop claiming things which are totally untrue.

- why should I have stopped spotting after questioning? It's not illegal what I did. No law can stop me from that. And I was not asked to stop.

- yes, the numbers were important to me. If you were a true registration spotter you would understand. Sorry, I don't pass through DTW every week and therefore I have to use the chances I get.

- flight crews might have been agressive? Hm, they were very kind in fact.

- interference with flight crews? It was the purser who appologized (read the report again) and the captain was the one who said it was OK. When I left the aircraft I again asked the captain if I had caused much confusion. He just smiled...so much for interference with flight crews. Remember: I did not drink, smoke, or offend anyone.

- yes, I read all the reports about NWA DTW-LAX flights being affected by incidents. But why should that stop me from doing something legal? Btw, I talked to the purser about these incidents, and she didn't even know.

- and note: I'm not responsible for girls who are not able to fly...

Hey mister, I'm glad you weren't on that flight! Oh my god...  Wink/being sarcastic



@Tom,
Don't be concerned about the incident. It might happen only once in 100 flights. Go through a US gateway, let's not react to these paranoids! Enjoy your flights to Canada!


@Warszawa,
thanks for your kind words! I loved the DTW terminal, bright, modern, convenient. Great place to be!


Regards and always happy spotting!
Udo


User currently offlineSATL382G From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4952 times:

Wow -- Guess I struck a nerve...

I didn't say Udo did anything illegal. I didn't say anything about Udo having "dark skin" or looking suspicious, and I don't believe Udo did either so I don't know where that came from Aviacion.

All I'm saying here is that if you're doing something on the airplane that's making the other pax uncomfortable maybe you should reconsider your behavior.

I agree with Udo up to the point where he continued spotting after it was apparent he was causing a problem for others. And frankly it probably wasn't the spotting as much as the use of binocs. After that point it appears he was trying to egg these people on.

There are lots of things that are legal that people don't, normally, do on airplanes. It's legal to scream at the top of your lungs, fart prodiciously, and generally smell bad. But do you want to sit next to that person? Airlines
understand this and will remove people for things that are "legal"

By conciously making the decision to continue Udo risked the following:

1. Having himself removed to a later flight
2. Getting himself attention from the authorities -- he lucked out though and had a decent crew.
3. Delaying EVERY single other passenger on the aircraft with a myriad of consequences for passenger and airline. Do you have any idea what a delay like this could potentially cost?

Again I will ask, was it worth it to get those registrations?

Again I do not condone the actions of the other passengers.

Why didn't he just chill for a couple of minutes 'til the F/A came back?

Folks, I've been in the aviation business a long time and I've seen pax do some silly things that have gotten them in a lot of trouble and cost the airline a lot of money. And afterwards the pax who did the silly thing usually says "Gee if I'd thought about it I wouldn't have done it". In this case I think this applies to both Udo and the irrational girl.

SATL382G


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4947 times:

It seems we are stuck with different opinions. Fine, let's keep it here.

I'm in no way considering my behaviour as misplaced or inappropriate. I will do it again and I will do it all the time. If the flight is delayed it's not my fault and it's a question of the airlines dealing with people like me. In the case of NWA I can only say "well done", they knew how to handle the situation. If they had put me on another flight, well. I would have accepted the consequences.

Again I must ask: what the heck can anyone do with binoculars? They just make things appear larger, that's all. People should THINK sometimes, it would help. I'm not resonsible for stupid people being scared of anything.
Mabye the next step is banning binoculars from airports and planes...if that happens, then I can only say: stupidity has won...

Btw, comparing spotting with other "legal" behaviour like "farting" or "smell bad" can only make me wonder...



Regards
Udo


User currently offlineSATL382G From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4938 times:

SATL382G,
- first of all: can you show me a proof that the bad guys (like the 9/11) hijackers use binoculars and take down numbers in a book? What effect would that have for their plans? You can be sure, these guys DO NOT do that because they want to be discrete and remain undiscovered. People like YOU think they do...Stop claiming things which are totally untrue.


The bad guys are smart, they will use all the tools and implements that modern society has to offer to achieve their ends. I'm sure that they use pencil, paper, and binoculars in the course of their business. I never said that they used them from a window seat of an aircraft.

- why should I have stopped spotting after questioning? It's not illegal what I did. No law can stop me from that. And I was not asked to stop.

Because, given the situation that you described, it would have been the reasonable thing to do. Further, I gather from your description of events that you were simply trying to egg the girl on and perhaps she was trying to do the same to you....

- yes, the numbers were important to me. If you were a true registration spotter you would understand. Sorry, I don't pass through DTW every week and therefore I have to use the chances I get.

Sorry the "if you were a true spotter" argument doesn't cut it. Why not just answer my question?

- flight crews might have been agressive? Hm, they were very kind in fact.

I said "authorities" not flight crews. You lucked out and got a reasonable crew.

- interference with flight crews? It was the purser who appologized (read the report again) and the captain was the one who said it was OK. When I left the aircraft I again asked the captain if I had caused much confusion. He just smiled...so much for interference with flight crews. Remember: I did not drink, smoke, or offend anyone.

In the airline business, as in many others, the motto a "customer is always right" is often the way to go. Sometimes its just simpler to agree with a paying customer rather than aggravate them further. Goes for F/As and flight crews too. If what you were doing didn't offend anyone than what was the girls problem? And obviously you did offend some folks because as you state "people, especially the woman and her daughter, stared at me"

- yes, I read all the reports about NWA DTW-LAX flights being affected by incidents. But why should that stop me from doing something legal? Btw, I talked to the purser about these incidents, and she didn't even know.

Again a smile and a bit of ignorance will go a long way to help a, perhaps tired, F/A deal with a paying customer.

- and note: I'm not responsible for girls who are not able to fly...

Never said you were and never said she was right either.

Hey mister, I'm glad you weren't on that flight! Oh my god

That's a bit sad given the little that you know about me. I on the other hand would be happy to fly with you, provided that you are not trying to antagonize the other passengers. For the record I'm not thrilled about flying with irrational teenagers either...

SATL382G


User currently offlineWarszawa From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 727 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4929 times:

SATL... Guess we should all just live in a cave, isnt that the safest option?  Insane

Stripping yourself and others of legal rights, is, in fact, letting the terrorists win, so if thats what you think is right, so be it.

" For the record I'm not thrilled about flying with irrational teenagers either..."

Great! Happy to have you offboard any of my future flights.  Big thumbs up



Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
User currently offlinePatroni From Luxembourg, joined Aug 1999, 1403 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4923 times:

@ Udo & Burnsie28:
Don't be concerned about the incident. It might happen only once in 100 flights. Go through a US gateway, let's not react to these paranoids!

Well, between 1992 and 2000 I used to visit the USA about 3-4 times a year and loved every single trip. Beautiful country, nice people. Then was a longer pause until November last year when I went on a business trip to JFK, then to IAH , SEA (via DEN), SFO and LAX. As the US domestic sectors were all oneway tickets, I was "randomly" (haha..) selected for detailed search on every single flight. On a nearly empty evening flight from DEN to SEA I was asleep during the drink service. When I woke up, I wanted to walk a few steps so went to the forward galley to ask for a coke. Uhhh... big mistake... when reaching about row 6 I was yelled at by the flight attendant: "Stop where you are, don't come any closer!!", with all faces turning towards me. Very embarrassed I went back to my seat and pushed the f/a button...Seriously, I didn't feel comfortable on these flights. Reading your story now on top of my own experiences makes me not really keen on a transfer in the US. Besides, I have a visa in my passport, so I think I will have to go through all this finger printing excercise now? Sorry, but not if I can avoid it by either transferring somewhere else or taking a direct flight....

And another sorry to Udo for this of-topic contribution!

Cheers,
Tom


User currently offlineSATL382G From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4907 times:

For the record..

I'm not talking about terrorism or the unfortunate security paranoia.

I'm talking about passengers who intentionally antagonize other passengers aboard commercial aircraft. It's not just a US problem, it happens on all airlines in all countries, though it does seem to be more prevalent in the US.

It seems that both parties on this flight were simply trying to antagonize one another. They were both wrong.

When it happens between drivers on the highway, it's called "road rage" and it doesn't do anybody any good there either.

Before 9/11 this problem on commercial aircraft was called "Air Rage" and it was considered a major airline security problem, if not the #1 issue. So it's not new or a result of 9/11

If you feel you can do as you please on a commercial aircraft, regardless of the discomfort you cause other pax or yourself, then please don't complain about the consequences of your actions and don't use our hobby as an excuse.


SATL382G


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4852 times:

Patroni- All one way tickets are subject to SSSS.

If you go through Canada, your going to have to go through Customes twice, once upon arrival, once upon departure.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
25 Post contains images Lucky727 : Oh, effing great, the flame wars have begun in the TRIP REPORTS forum...of all places. @SATL382G and Udo : ok, you've made your points - can we cut th
26 Udo : SATL382G, Oh wow, it goes on and on...but I will reply once more. - yes, the bad guys might use pencil, paper and binoculars...but they don't do that
27 Post contains images Sabena332 : Hey Udo, great report, nice to hear that NW offers good PTV entertainment in it's Eco Class, especially I like the feature where you can play against
28 Post contains images Udo : Hi Patrick, Are you back from Asia? I haven't checked the new reports yet. NWA's quiz is indeed a great feature. Sure, it will never have the personal
29 Post contains images Sabena332 : Are you back from Asia? I haven't checked the new reports yet. Yes unfortunately I am back, the time there passed way too fast. I will not write a rep
30 Nwcoflyer : Udo, Great trip report. Good to see you gave NWA a try and enjoyed.
31 Q330 : Great report Udo! Really entertaining to read. -Q
32 Post contains images 9V-SPF : Another great report, Udo ! I´m currently not willing to add much to that unbelievable crybaby discussion but let me tell you that I think it was ver
33 Post contains images Udo : Hi Daniel, Thanks for your kind comments on the issue! I wish you good luck with a NWA/KLM combo, plenty of DC-10 flights should still be possible for
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