Quote:
"What once was a glamorous job...doesn't look so good any more," says Andy Roberts, executive vice president of operations for Northwest Airlines Corp. Mr. Roberts says Northwest and its peers used to have a list of applicants "as long as your arm." Now, "we have to go seek them out, even pilots."
That's not good news for passengers, as the combination of fewer and less experienced workers is causing more service problems. Planes sit on tarmacs because airlines are short on gate workers. Service on planes is slower because many airlines are flying with fewer flight attendants. When bad weather hits, tight staffing may mean more delays or canceled flights.
The situation isn't likely to improve anytime soon. Although airlines were able to raise fares the last two years as travel surged, customers have begun to resist fare increases, domestic demand is softening, and jet-fuel prices have started rising again. These are the same pressures that contributed to more than $50 billion in net losses from 2001 through 2005.
later in the article
Quote:
Advances in technology account for some of the declining need for workers. Many passengers book their tickets on the Internet and check in via self-service kiosks. Also, airlines need fewer gate agents because passengers are now generally required to check in at the main terminal before undergoing security screening.
with the counter point late in the article:
Quote:
Despite the additions, US Airways Chief Executive Doug Parker says the low-fare market leaves airlines with little choice but to operate lean staffs. "You can't get the passengers to pay more so the airlines can staff another flight attendant. It's the reality of the business and what the consumer has told us they want," he said in an interview.
XJET From United States, joined Feb 2007, 369 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4851 times:
This is very true. We are already looking at a fair sized pilot shortage at the regional airline level. Last year their were no flight instructors, now there is a lack of regional pilots to hire. This will continue as the majors start hiring again. I know RP has already had to announce a reduction in block hours due to staffing shortages. 9E has removed destinations to train pilots. Piedmont, American Eagle, Comair, and Mesa are all offering signing bonuses which is unheard of. The only places that aren't having too much trouble are the regionals with good pilot contracts that haven't been forced to take pay cuts.
Continental From United States, joined Jun 2000, 4941 posts, RR: 18 Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4836 times:
Quoting Lightsaber (Thread starter): Service on planes is slower because many airlines are flying with fewer flight attendants.
Is that right? I thought there had to be a certain number of flight attendants per aircraft in order to fly. Did the airlines used to have more flight attendants on their aircraft than necessary?
Futurecaptain From , joined today!, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4836 times:
Thats alright, the market will rebalance itself. If airlines are short applicants then they will raise sign on bonuses, benifits, pay, ect until qualified applicants are once again attracted to the job offers. Everything works out in the end with a free market.
RoseFlyer From United States, joined Feb 2004, 5237 posts, RR: 17 Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4794 times:
I think the premise of the article is a good one, but I don't think it is very true. To an economist, the flexibility of wages in aviation would imply that wages go down in times of low profit. Staff retention goes down as part of it. Workers become hard to find to work at the lowest pay. From an economics point of view, a firm should always pay the lowest it can to employees to get the required productivity.
However, I don't think the airlines are paying as low as they could. United started hiring flight attendants and they got something like 15,000 applications for 1,000 jobs. There's still glammer is some places. But airport workers are getting way less than they once did. They are becoming harder to find, but airlines can still outsource and don't seem to have trouble finding people.
One area that airlines are having trouble is in the management area. They pay so low that they can't get the qualified accountants, business people and planners necessary. Airlines pay less than other industries for professionals, and they can have a hard time getting qualified professionals.
Quoting Lightsaber (Thread starter): That's not good news for passengers, as the combination of fewer and less experienced workers is causing more service problems. Planes sit on tarmacs because airlines are short on gate workers. Service on planes is slower because many airlines are flying with fewer flight attendants. When bad weather hits, tight staffing may mean more delays or canceled flights.
As much as I want to believe that this is because of them having trouble recruiting workes, I think it is because they want to staff less. Airlines want to staff on a minimum basis. It saves them money. But there is a balance and if there are too few workers, flights do get delayed. But I think they could have more employees if they paid more. The excepetion I think is when it is -10 at ORD and all the underpaid workers call in sick.
Quoting Continental (Reply 2): Is that right? I thought there had to be a certain number of flight attendants per aircraft in order to fly. Did the airlines used to have more flight attendants on their aircraft than necessary?
On narrowbodies airlines have been staffing with the minimum necessary to fly for decades. It is 1 flight attendant per 50 passengers. But on planes larger than a 757, US airlines pretty much always staff more flight attendants than necessary to improve service. But the number of flight attendants on 767s, 777s and 747s has gone down from where it was not too long ago in an attempt to save money as they cut service levels and quality.
I design airplane parts for a living and am that guy that mechanics hate and blame for everything... the Design Engineer
Quote: OCEANSIDE, N.Y. — Workers at many airlines have been forced to take huge pay cuts in recent years, and they have watched 100,000 or so of their colleagues lose their jobs.
But for many of them, the industry’s financial woes have taken another toll: a sense of love lost for the business.
Some airline mechanics, for example, are fond of saying that they have jet fuel in their veins. For the Schalk family of Oceanside, N.Y., it even coursed through two generations. Until recently.
SunTan Airlines is now boarding rows Pina Colada through Dacquiri
Bahadir From United States, joined Oct 2001, 1030 posts, RR: 8 Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4700 times:
Let's see:
- fuel is twice of what it used to be in 2001 (or maybe 3 times more)
- housing is untouchable
- CEOs are taking millions despite of all the cuts they are asking from the employees
- Getting the pilots license is more expensive compared to 6 years ago.
Why should i work for a job that pays me $19/hr with a take home pay of 13,000/year in my first year? As soon as he got released of IOE , my sim partner in Skywest declared Ch. 7. He had 100,000 in debt and 500 dollar paycheck. (Yeah he was stupid enough to go to delta connection academy).
Bicoastal From , joined today!, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4651 times:
We love to complain about lack of service or unknowledgeable staff at airlines. But the low pay and high turnover is a big problem. At many stations, they'd love to have more customer service and ramp agents to serve us, but the applicants aren't exactly beating down the doors. 10 year background checks, drug testing and a clean record weed out many. And your ticket/itinerary issue that should be a simple fix? Sorry, it's getting harder and harder to find a customer service agent who knows enough to help you. They are new and don't stay around long enough to learn how to solve your problem.
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 4): They are becoming harder to find, but airlines can still outsource and don't seem to have trouble finding people.
I disagree. In house and contract workers are hard to find and retain. Contract workers are even harder to retain. They get no flight benefits in most cases. Why work very hard outside in the heat and cold, when Starbucks and McDonalds pay more??
Tango-Bravo From United States, joined Jun 2001, 2972 posts, RR: 28 Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4564 times:
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 4): I think the premise of the article is a good one, but I don't think it is very true.
May I be so forthright as to suggest that you pull your head out of the sand... Moreover, how can it be possible for the premise to be good and not true at the same time
If anything, it is in the best interests of the WSJ agenda to minimize or even ignore the issues of low pay = low caliber staff and understaffing due to attrition outpacing the ability of airlines to fill vacancies due to uncompetitive pay and undesirable working conditions. In the real world that can only be observed from above the level of the proverbial sand, the issues of low pay = less capable staff and/or understaffing = declining airline service levels has reached a point where even the corporate greed-driven aganda of WSJ can no longer ignore the issue.
Many seem to think, and justifiably so, that staffing issues will be among the components that add up to the liklihood of widespread collapse of service reliability in the U.S. during the summer travel season lurking just around the proverbial corner. Whatever may happen, or not happen, one thing that summer travelers can count on is that there will be plenty of ugly, frustrating delays and megadelays and poor service due to understaffing and inexperienced staff plus indifferent staff who will do nothing more than the minimum required of their position.
Style From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 181 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4356 times:
Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 7): At many stations, they'd love to have more customer service and ramp agents to serve us, but the applicants aren't exactly beating down the doors. 10 year background checks, drug testing and a clean record weed out many. And your ticket/itinerary issue that should be a simple fix? Sorry, it's getting harder and harder to find a customer service agent who knows enough to help you. They are new and don't stay around long enough to learn how to solve your problem.
Well said. Sure its easy to hire somebody, but to hire a knowledgeable dedicated person who will be around for more than a year is a big task now a days. Why do double the work, for less pay when you can go to another industry for better wages and benefits with less headache?
It's starting to catch up and I think eventually the s*** will hit the fan.
DALMD88 From United States, joined Jul 2000, 1678 posts, RR: 7 Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4320 times:
I don't think this is true for the skilled jobs like pilots and mechanics. Right now we have a bunch of openings for mechanics here in BOS due to recalls to ATL and new stations opening. We posted 6 opening internally and to the public. We got over 70 apps. I didn't see them so some may not be qualified. They are going to interviewing soon to fill these openings and then will do it again to fill 6 more openings.
Lightsaber From United States, joined Jan 2005, 3768 posts, RR: 71 Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4281 times:
Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 3): Thats alright, the market will rebalance itself. If airlines are short applicants then they will raise sign on bonuses, benifits, pay, ect until qualified applicants are once again attracted to the job offers. Everything works out in the end with a free market.
Exactly. But it might require a capacity reduction (other side of supply and demand). I'm a strong poponent for more job flexibility in the industry. (Transfer of seniority from company to company.) Yea... that won't happen...
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 4): However, I don't think the airlines are paying as low as they could. United started hiring flight attendants and they got something like 15,000 applications for 1,000 jobs.
Touche'. I agree. The glamor jobs will get filled. The less glamorous need to increase the pay to the point where they have enough applicants that they can "man up" for bad weather. But that requires reducing costs in other areas. Passangers have found internet based ticket services and won't ever give that up. I consider price transparency a good thing... Deliver more for the same and you will always get the business. I've often paid $100 more for a coast to coast airfare based on the airline I perceive offers better service/room. But mostly its been off schedule. Like it or not, I'm one of those customers who doesn't have enough free time (for vacations) to not consider frequency.
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 4): One area that airlines are having trouble is in the management area. They pay so low that they can't get the qualified accountants, business people and planners necessary. Airlines pay less than other industries for professionals, and they can have a hard time getting qualified professionals.
This is what pilots/flight attendents/others should do. Proffesionals by definition can transfer their experience company to company. I'm very glad that when I shift employers what matters is what I can do, not how long I've done it. There is a market rate for any manufacturing/repair engineer. Applicants will apply with the airlines, the airframes, the engine makers/repair shops, etc. They then take the offer they like the best.
Don't worry, that is about to correct in a big way. (I post more now on housing blogs than a.net, so I admit my bias.)
Give it 30 or so months.
What I take out of this is that there will be some wage inflation at significant cost of capacity. The capacity reduction will not be fairly distributed. The LCC's will probably continue to grow while those with higher CASM will have to provide something more to earn higher RASM. (It can be frequency, connections, a meal, more legroom, international service... whatever.)
I believe the industry must continue to cut costs. Now since fuel is #1 on the plate, that is to hire more R&D engineers.
Lightsaber
ps
came back since it was the thread I started... this is my last post until mid-June when I return from my honeymoon.
COEI2007 From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1158 posts, RR: 4 Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4279 times:
Well, this is why I dont work for a US airline anymore!!!! As much as cutbacks, fuel etc is affecting European airlines, they pay a hell of a lot more!
Lotsamiles From United States, joined May 2005, 234 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4176 times:
I recently applied for a Sr. Ops Analyst position with a major, thinking a stint with an airline would be great experience for my career. I got short listed but then I found out the pay was less than half of what I make today. There goes that idea...
USFlyer MSP From United States, joined May 2000, 600 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4099 times:
Quoting Sean-SAN- (Reply 10): From my experience, most ground staff get paid so low that nonreving is pointless, because once you get there you can't afford anything.
AMEN!!!
Thats why I got out. $9.47 hr was not enough to take the abuse from pax. I always had to do day trips when I non-revved beacuse I couldnt afford a hotel and pray that I got into first or business for the free food.
UALFAson From United States, joined Mar 2004, 358 posts, RR: 4 Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4071 times:
I think we may have finally reached a tipping point or are at least getting close in terms of balancing costs versus maintaining a sufficient (read: not minimum) staff.
Although anecdotal, at my employer many former United frequent flyers have given up on flying the airline because of their awful customer service. I stick with them mainly because of family loyalties (see Username), but it is getting harder and harder to defend their customer service and product. A large chunk of their problems result from not having enough airport staff. With major hubs in some of the most weather-delay prone cities in the country (Chicago, San Francisco) the airline can't claim to be surprised by weather delays. It is not uncommon to see 40-50 standing in line at the Customer Service Centers in Denver or Chicago with maybe 2 agents working a counter built to accommodate 8. The stories I could tell you about indifferent ground staff at LAX, IAD, etc. rank up there with the best of them.
Perhaps it's not anecdotal, though, judging by United's recent last-place finish in that customer satisfaction survey. I think people are finally starting to complain with their wallets and not just their mouths, and are deciding that other airlines offer a "less-bad" flying option.
Every time I read the latest corporate mumbo-jumbo on SkyNet (United's Intranet) about "focusing on the customer" it makes me want to throw up. Seriously, have these people actually flown their product lately?!? Seriously!
2008 so far: HNL, LIH, OGG, LAX, BUR, SFO, PHX, DEN, BZN, DFW, IAH, ORD, IAD, DCA
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 2927 posts, RR: 13 Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3994 times:
We are facing an explosion in commercial air travel in the PRC, the Indian sub-continent and throughout South East Asia if current forecasts are to be believed.
Airlines like Emirates serving Asian markets have huge aircraft orders placed with both Airbus and Boeing.
I believe that Asian trained airline pilots are relatively next to non-existant. One scenario is that pilots wages will escalate as world-wide demand outstrips world-wide supply. What will happen in the US when this happens?
Sponsor Message: 
From United States, joined Jan 2005, 3768 posts, 
From , joined today!, posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 181 posts, 
There is a market rate for any manufacturing/repair engineer. Applicants will apply with the airlines, the airframes, the engine makers/repair shops, etc. They then take the offer they like the best. 
From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1158 posts,