L-188 From United States, joined Jul 1999, 27949 posts, RR: 69 Posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 8530 times:
Well since we had a thread on the 10 greatest bombers of all time, I think it is time we have one on the 10 greatest fighters of all time.
I'll go ahead and list my top 10 list of the greatest fighters and let you take shots at it. I have to tell you guys, that I think this list was harder to put together then the bomber list I did.
So here we go with my list
10:Fokker Eindecker-This was the aircraft that started it all. The first fighter to be fitted with a gun synchronizing gear, and a staple of the early german air force.
7:Fokker VII-Arguably the greatest fighter of the first world war. It was this aircraft that the Allies had to design aircraft against and train against. The majority of the Red Barons kills where in this aircraft.
6:McDonnell Douglas F-4-One of the most powerful fighters ever developed. Used by both the US Navy and USAF. Was able to be deployed effectively against smaller and lighter Migs in Vietnam. Had a near 40year US service life.
5:Supermarine Spitfire-Iconic of the Battle of Britain and British aviation in general. It's racing airplane heritage gave the aircraft an elegance that is not always common on combat aircraft.
4:General Dynamics F-16- The first "Electric Jet" The technology employed forced changes in tactics. Much of the same technology pioneered is being used as a basis on the aircraft that will replace it. Became a staple of Western Air Forces
3: ME-262-The first operational jet fighter, would have had a much bigger impact if political considerations and the orders of a Bohemian Corporal hadn't caused it to be delayed and initially mis-deployed as a bomber.
2:North American Mustang-Iconic of the US fighters of the aircraft and Iconic of WWII aviation in general. It was the long range escorts of US Bombers over Germany that made those raids successful and really broke the industrial spine of that country.
1:Mitsubishi Zero-A whole generation of US aircraft where designed to specifically counter this aircraft. The F4U Corsaid, F6F Hellcat, and F8F Bearcat may have been much less capable aircraft if it hadn't been for the Zero.
Grumman F4F Wildcat-This aircraft proved useful well past it's prime, serving as a fighter through out the war. It was a front line fighter at the start of the war, and still employed as one at the end. And it's ruggedness allowed it to stand up to a lot of damage. If the right tactics where employed it could hold it's own against the best the Japanese had to offer.
ME-109-Germanys iconic WWII fighter. This plane was the staple from the Spanish Civil war through to the surrender. Successfully discourage the British from running unescorted daylight bomber raids, and did a lot of damage to the US Bombers when they tried to do the same.
Mig-15-The opponent aircraft to the F-86 in Korea. The aircraft of the original "MIG ALLEY". It's later cousin the Mig-17 tried to run the tables on the US in Nam. Was very common during the mid-east wars of the 1960's.
Rwessel From United States, joined Jan 2007, 511 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 8520 times:
The P-38 belongs in the list. Despite being misused early in the ETO (bad air-to-air tactics**), given a wholly incorrect reputation for short range (mind you the P-38 had the range to escort bombers long before the Mustang came on the scene*), and fighting in an environment *much* more favorable to the Axis in those early years, it still racked up a winning kill ratio (basically all of the Lightning’s ETO kills were against the Luftwaffe in its best shape, many of the Mustang kills were against obsolete airplanes and under-trained pilots).
Also the only fighter in production on the first and last day of the war (at least counting the U.S. entry), and IIRC, three of the top five U.S. Aces flew Lightnings.
Several people in the AAC hated the Lightning for various reasons, and numerous chances for making a great plane even better were ignored (despite numerous requests, it was never authorized to even test fit Merlins to the Lightning).
*Using drop tanks. Of course the P-51 needed drop tanks as well for that mission, but around the same time the Mustang was introduced the *prohibition* against using drop tanks was dropped. And mind you all those "short range" Lightnings were withdrawn from the ETO and sent to the *Pacific.*
**And there were major tactical changes just in time for the Mustang too.
Pelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2399 posts, RR: 6 Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 8464 times:
Nice thread and I won't argue about your choice because it makes a lot of sense.
Edit: Perhaps the Sopwith Camel should be mentioned, too.
Quoting L-188 (Thread starter): t was the long range escorts of US Bombers over Germany that made those raids successful and really broke the industrial spine of that country.
Just one note. This is a myth which is told again and again on this site (not only here). In October 1945 the United States Strategic Bombing Survey assessed that only 17 per cent of the fixed assets in Germany were destroyed. Although the transportation system was more severe damaged than the industrial capacities it's an exaggeration to speak of an industrial break down of Germany during WW2.
This leads often to an overestimation of the influence of bombing raids on the outcome of WW2 in Europe (Japan of course is a very different thing).
Connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 1107 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 8429 times:
Overall a nice list. I'd include the P-38 and F-86 at least as honourable mentions.
Quoting L-188 (Thread starter): 2:North American Mustang-Iconic of the US fighters of the aircraft and Iconic of WWII aviation in general. It was the long range escorts of US Bombers over Germany that made those raids successful and really broke the industrial spine of that country.
Nazi industrial production didn't peak until, IIRC, November 1944. It was the transportation infrastructure damage that rendered them incapable of getting product to the field that effectively ended their ability to fight. Bombing the industry, much of which had moved underground, didn't do it.
Quoting Pelican (Reply 3): Just one note. This is a myth which is told again and again on this site (not only here). In October 1945 the United States Strategic Bombing Survey assessed that only 17 per cent of the fixed assets in Germany were destroyed. Although the transportation system was more severe damaged than the industrial capacities it's an exaggeration to speak of an industrial break down of Germany during WW2.
This leads often to an overestimation of the influence of bombing raids on the outcome of WW2 in Europe (Japan of course is a very different thing).
Pelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2399 posts, RR: 6 Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 8426 times:
Quoting L-188 (Thread starter): 7:Fokker VII-Arguably the greatest fighter of the first world war. It was this aircraft that the Allies had to design aircraft against and train against. The majority of the Red Barons kills where in this aircraft.
I know I look like a smartass but I have to correct you. Freiherr Manfred von Richthofen didn't use the Fokker D.VII in combat although he helped during its development. He died in April 1918 while the D.VII didn't saw any combat until a few weeks later in May. He used the famous Fokker Dr.I Triplane and the Albatros D.III and I think D.V
CF188A From , joined today!, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 8395 times:
Many will argue the Spitfire or P-51 Mustang belong in the top 1/2 because it is these two aircraft which ultimately defeated the Luftwaffe and more blatantly, had the largest effect on history as we know it.
L-188 From United States, joined Jul 1999, 27949 posts, RR: 69 Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 8371 times:
Quoting Keesje (Reply 4): Other fighters standing out in their time FW190, F15, Mirage III
Agreed, But I wanted to keep the list to 10 and the HM to 3. So some very worthy aircraft where left out.
Quoting Pelican (Reply 6): I know I look like a smartass but I have to correct you.
No problem. So I might have the wrong aircraft up there then.
Quoting Rwessel (Reply 1): The P-38 belongs in the list.
I really considered it because of it's work in both the South Pacific and the Aleutians, but unfortunately it's reputation in Europe cut it out of consideration.
Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 5): I'd include the P-38 and F-86 at least as honourable mentions.
I have to tell you that I was torn on if I should but the F-86 or the Mig-15's on the honorable mention list. The Mig ended up winning out because of it's wider distribution and service life.
L-188 From United States, joined Jul 1999, 27949 posts, RR: 69 Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 8349 times:
Quoting Rwessel (Reply 1): Also the only fighter in production on the first and last day of the war (at least counting the U.S. entry), and IIRC, three of the top five U.S. Aces flew Lightnings
I wanted to check up on that, but I don't think that is correct.
The F4F was clearly in production at the start of the war, and I have found references that the FM-2 version built by General Motors was still in production at the end of the war. I am still tryingt to find a hard date. The Cavanagh Flight Muesum says their FM-2 was accepted by the Navy days before the Japanese Surrender.
My understanding was that it was in production through the war because it was able to be operated off the small escort or "Jeep" carriers. Something that the larger and heavier Corsairs and Hellcats would have had trouble doing.
My understanding was that the F8F Bearcat that missed the war was designed to replace the Wildcats on the Escort Carriers.
I would be curious to hear an official end date on Wildcat production if somebody has one.
BigJKU From United States, joined Feb 2007, 474 posts, RR: 3 Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 8339 times:
Quoting L-188 (Thread starter): 4:General Dynamics F-16- The first "Electric Jet" The technology employed forced changes in tactics. Much of the same technology pioneered is being used as a basis on the aircraft that will replace it. Became a staple of Western Air Forces
I suppose. The original F-16 was not the greatest thing around. It grew into a better aircraft but the original concept of it was a cheap day fighter as conceived by the fighter mafia. The F-16 really found its success as a multi-role ground attack craft as opposed to a pure fighter.
Quoting L-188 (Thread starter): 1:Mitsubishi Zero-A whole generation of US aircraft where designed to specifically counter this aircraft. The F4U Corsaid, F6F Hellcat, and F8F Bearcat may have been much less capable aircraft if it hadn't been for the Zero.
This is a very common myth. The original contract for the fighter development was let before the war even started. Some changes were made to designs to improve the performance of the F6F, mostly putting a more powerful engine on it which would have been done anyway since more power is almost always good.
Not just that but the Zero vs Wildcat battle hovered around a 1-1 kill ratio through the first part of the war. While the Zero was certainly a quick turning fighter US pilots figured out in short order how to handle it so that the F4F was giving as good as it took.
As Hellcats came into the force the Zero quickly found itself on the wrong end of a 10-1 kill ratio.
The Zero was a nice plane that lots of nations could have built if they sacrificed all the things that were considered pretty standard for other fighters, self-sealing fuel tanks, a little bit of cockpit armor ect.
I just think its a bit of a stretch to put the Zero at #1 for fighters considering it never really did much better than break even. I would not consider the Zero a top 5 fighter of WWII placing it after the P-51, Spitfire, F6F, ME 109, FW 190, P-47 and the P-38. It had a poor record against even the Wildcat.
I think you might have better luck if you compared prop fighters on one list, gun fighting jets on another and modern AC on another. Its pretty impossible to compare the F-4 to anything, considering it has a very skimpy air combat record.
EBJ1248650 From United States, joined Jun 2005, 947 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8268 times:
Quoting Pelican (Reply 3): Nice thread and I won't argue about your choice because it makes a lot of sense.
Edit: Perhaps the Sopwith Camel should be mentioned, too.
I for one would have the F-86 in the top ten, not sure just where, and the Zero removed. Keep in mind that while the Zero had incredible performance, it was a flimsy airplane in a dog fight; no armor to protect aircraft systems or the pilot. Under the guns of a P-38 or P-47, the airplane would come apart as a result of a well aimed shot.
Spad 13 also belongs among the honorable mentions, as might the Nieuport 28. F-80 Shooting Star would go in there too as significant because it was among the first full scale production jet fighters and proved mighty rugged during the Korean conflict.
Your list, as is, shows signs of being well thought out and I do commend you for that.
Pelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2399 posts, RR: 6 Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8214 times:
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 13): Your list, as is, shows signs of being well thought out and I do commend you for that.
Thanks but give credit where credit is due - the list was made by L-188. I added the Sopwith Camel because it was the single most successful fighter of WWI.
XT6Wagon From United States, joined Feb 2007, 1505 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8205 times:
Quoting L-188 (Thread starter): 1:Mitsubishi Zero-A whole generation of US aircraft where designed to specifically counter this aircraft. The F4U Corsaid, F6F Hellcat, and F8F Bearcat may have been much less capable aircraft if it hadn't been for the Zero.
sorry but the zero was a terrible aircraft. Looked good against the obsolete aircraft it faced early on, but the vastly underpowered wildcat is hardly a good thing base performance on.
More air to air kills than the F16 in the 1st gulf war.... Also has held its own in wargames in Air to Air thanks to being slow, low, and having a very nasty gun. Sure its useless as a air superiority fighter, but damn nasty in self-defense. Oh and great for sniping helicopters.
TAZA From United States, joined Feb 2007, 32 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 6 days ago) and read 8101 times:
L-188...Very nice thread and good choices.
As for US aircraft I would submit the following : (Data from Air Force Magazine - Walter J. Boyne)
# 1 North American P-51 Mustang. First flight on October 25, 1940 ( 117 days from first drawing to first flight)
NUMBER BUILT: 15,621 SPEED: cruise @ 362 mph max @ 437 mph MAX RANGE: 950 miles (no drop tanks)
KILLS: AIR to AIR: 4,950 GROUND: 4,000 plus 230 V-1 buzz bombs
ACES: 274 w/ 17 "Aces in a day" (saw action in all WW !! combat zones)
# 2 Grumman F6F Hellcat. First flight on June 26, 1942
NUMBER BUILT: 12,275 SPEED: cruise @ 160 mph max @ 375 mph (specific to F6F-3) MAX RANGE: 1,590 miles
KILLS: 5,156 total (4,947 by Navy Aviators) ( 209 by land based Marine Corps Pilots)
ACES: 305 ( most of any US fighter in WW !! )
Sponsor Message: 
From United States, joined Jul 1999, 27949 posts, 
From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 3301 posts, 
From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 7815 posts, 
From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 1107 posts, 
From , joined today!, posts, 
From Malta, joined Dec 2004, 946 posts, 