Spinzels From United States, joined Jun 2004, 321 posts, RR: 0 Posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1436 times:
The shamefully deceitful campaign by the group calling itself the “Swift Boat Veterans for Truth” against John Kerry’s Vietnam War record has been taking a huge amount of hits in the past few days. First, there are the numerous factual errors in SBV's television commercials that have been discovered both by objective, media watching organizations like the Annenberg Public Policy Center’s “factcheck.org”: http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231 as well as journalists trying to examine the truth of the story, see: http://www.latimes.com/news/yahoo/la-na-kerryswift17aug17,1,2438842.story (free registration required); http://www.slate.com/id/2105353/
But now we have direct evidence that one of the key members of the SBV team, Larry Thurlow, is lying. The Washington Post recently requested Thurlow to release his military records. He refused and with good reason because Thurlow's military records obtained under a Freedom of Information Act request flatly contradict the story he tells in the SBV commercials. In the commercials, Thurlow claims that the flotilla of five swift boats of which he and Kerry were commanding separate boats, came under no direct fire from the enemy on the Bay Hap river on March 13, 1969, the day Kerry won his Bronze star (that Bronze star is of course in addition to the silver star and three purple hearts that he was also awarded for his service in Vietnam). But Thurlow’s records obtained by the Washington Post contradict Thurlow’s statements. According to the very citation awarding Thurlow his Bronze Star, “enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" were directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla on March 13, 1969. The citation further praises Thurlow for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him." See the article here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html
So which is the truth? Either Thurlow is lying or the citation giving him his Bronze Star is wrong. Either way, for his own good, it would be helpful if President Bush would join John McCain and denounce these commercials as untruthful and un-American.
Jaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1411 times:
"it would be helpful if President Bush would join John McCain and denounce these commercials as untruthful and un-American."
But you see, Bush had nothing to do with these commercials. He said so on Larry King. And he must be believed because he has such a fine tradition of telling the truth.
N6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1406 times:
I agree that Bush should join with McCain in denouncing this crap. But by the same token shouldn't Kerry denounce the moveon.org bullshit that is out there?
ConcordeBoy From United States, joined Feb 2001, 18542 posts, RR: 79 Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1401 times:
Either way, for his own good, it would be helpful if President Bush would join John McCain and denounce these commercials as untruthful and un-American
...or, Kerry could release his own damn records and make this all go away in an instant-- assuming of course, the Swift Vet campaign is all just "shamefully deceitful"
Until then: in silencio consentium Mr. Kerry.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1383 times:
Why should Kerry denounce Moveon.org? As far as I can see, they're not making up slanderous lies about Bush, but for the most part, are just stating facts about his administration.
Bush is, in my mind, obviously, being two-faced about this. To the public, he says "Kerry served honorably", but I'm convinced that this group has indirect ties to the Bush campaign (didn't I read the bankroller of this group is a Bush buddy in Texas?), and, like they did to McCain in SC in 2000, they're hiding behind this group, and avowing no knowledge of this.
This is a Karl Rove job if I've ever seen one, and it's exactly what Bush's people did to McCain in the '00 primaries.
L-188 From United States, joined Jul 1999, 28158 posts, RR: 70 Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1377 times:
What are you smoking Alpha 1.
Moveon.org was created for the specific purpose of circumventing the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance laws.
It doesn't surprise me that this group is under attack, the only way the democrats can stay on target is to demonizing people who question their totalian agenda.
Unfortunately weak minded individuals such as Alpha (L-188 is not a centerist) one buy into it without examining the facts.
So far as far as the anti-swift boat groups go all they have is a bronze star report for the founder that is written with simular language as the one that Kerry got......Oddly enough considering that it was the same alleged action, that shouldn't be that suprising.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
N6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1372 times:
I have yet to hear Kerry (himself) deny the allegations. In fact, some of the claims that these guys are making have since caused Kerry to "clarify" his own claims.
Airplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1366 times:
Perhaps in this case it should be called the "Freedom of Humiliation Act.
With respect to special interest groups, it is wisest for the parties to keep them at arm's length. There is always potential for embarrasment from some of the more extreme groups.
If I was Bush or Kerry, I would make clear that I support the special interest groups right to free speech but that their message is not directly supported by the party and as such the "facts" presented should be treated as suspect.
Jaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1350 times:
"I have yet to hear Kerry (himself) deny the allegations."
Kerry's response:
""Of course, the president keeps telling people he would never question my service to our country. Instead, he watches as a Republican-funded attack group does just that. Well, if he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam, here is my answer: Bring it on!" Kerry challenged."
www.cnn.com
I'd love to see this in a national debate. Should make jibjab seem tame in comparison !
B757300 From United States, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 24 Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1348 times:
I have yet to hear Kerry (himself) deny the allegations. In fact, some of the claims that these guys are making have since caused Kerry to "clarify" his own claims.
Kerry hasn't denied any of the allegations. All he has done along with his DNC cronies is try and smear the Swift Boat Vets. As with the standard DNC tactic, attempt to smear and discredit the accusers without refuting the charges. If Kerry would release his records the matter could be settled once and for all. Of course he won't do this probably because it would scuttle his campaign.
Of course the Washington Compost used the Freedom of Information Act to access the SBV records but will not do the something and take a look at Kerry's records.
_________________________________________________________________
Actually, the President has denounced all of the ads by these 527's such as Moveon.org and such. He said that all should be stopped, not just the Swift Boat Vets. So in other words, Kerry should stop George Soros funded Moveon.org if they want Bush to ask the Swift Boat Vets to stop. (And BTW, the SBV have said they will not stop, even if the President asked.)
Just remember that under current campaign laws, the parties and candidates cannot have any connection to the 527 groups.
_________________________________________________________________
If one reads the article, they will see that in fact the headline is very deceiving. In reality, much if what it says supports with the SBV have been saying.
"For much of the episode, Kerry was not in a position to know firsthand what was happening on Thurlow's boat, as Kerry's boat had sped down the river after the mine exploded under another boat. He later returned to provide assistance to the stricken boat."
Let's remember, Thurlow wasn't the only eyewitness that day. It was a squadron of five PCFs. Apparently, there was a net in the river, and rightly or wrongly, they tried to sail around through a narrow gap. And there was a watermine planted right in that narrow gap. The PCF-3 was launched about six feet into the air. Other boats opened fire presuming, as in present-day Iraq, that the mine was remotely detonated as the opening of a high-firepower ambush. But they stopped shooting because they received no return fire.
As everyone knows, Kerry meanwhile had panicked and ordered his craft out of the area. Rassman may have been sitting on the stern, eating a cookie (although there are something like five or six different stories about where he was, and on what boat). And if so, he was tossed overboard by Kerry's own actions.
The after action report for the incident, in which both Thurlow and Kerry won the Bronze Star, was submitted by who? John Kerry. Thurlow has maintained that he believed the award was for saving the men from PCF-3, not for taking enemy fire. If the Bronze Star was just for taking enemy fire, Thurlow has said it would be a fraudulent metal and he wouldn't want it.
_______________________________________________________________-_
Oh, and if this was nothing but a pack of lies, then why is "Unfit for Command" still Number 1 on Amazon.com after nearly three weeks and Number one on Barnesandnoble.com since it went on sale? (B&N does not count pre-orders as sales until the book is officially released.) Also, why is the publisher doing their 7th printing of the book in order to keep up with demand?
_________________________________________________________________
If Kerry wants to this go away and show that it is nothing but a smear campaign, then all he has to do is release his military records. Of course the media won't demand this or do a FOI request as they did to President Bush.
ConcordeBoy From United States, joined Feb 2001, 18542 posts, RR: 79 Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1337 times:
if he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam
...the immediate followup jumping to mind being: the f^ck should that matter?!
You're a liar, Bush is a liar, Clinton was a muthafriggin liar, and so is every godforsaken politician who's ever held an office. We know that already, give it a rest (both sides!)
Why not debate what you Mr. Kerry would specifically do to assist in the times we're in..... not what some said you ~did~ 30years ago in a war half your voters weren't alive to care about??????????????????????????
Thus far, all you have made us privy to is that you would somehow pull a Rabbit out of your hat and convince two/three countries [with absolutely nothing to gain from doing so] to assist us with peacekeeping in Iraq. That sir DOES NOT CUT IT.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
Jaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1328 times:
"Why not debate what you Mr. Kerry would specifically do to assist in the times we're in..... not what some said you ~did~ 30years ago in a war half your voters weren't alive to care about??????????????????????????"
The lady doth protest too much. Why can't Kerry do both? As he is doing.
Pity the GOP strategist who brought up the draft dodger issue in 1992. The GOP made its bed back then. Now it gets to lie in it.
And why shouldn't Kerry bring up his war service? Or at least defend it from the attacks of Bush's attack dogs. Even today the Moonie controlled sorry right wing rag "The Washington Times" is running excerpts of that book as a headline ! Even as a war is being raged on in Najaf !
Sorry, but voters still do care about Vietnam, service, and the ignoble intentions of those who attempt to sully the service of others.
Has anyone noticed how Kerry's ratings have been rising even as the Swift Boat Veterans and Bush have been slowly sinking?
Jaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1318 times:
Besides, Concorde, if Kerry's three medals are so inconsequential and his Vietnam era record so pointless to the national debate, why even respond to his natter?
Let the GOP and its minions just prattle on about substantive policy issues instead of bringing out the portly Swift Vets for Truth (more like Swift Vets for "we can't just quite get our story right but lets poison the waters anyways" - but I digress). Take the high road on current issues rather than defame the events of 30 years ago. Because theyr'e so irrelevant to the raging national debates of our time, as you indicate.
Alas.
The truth is that Bush and his buddies are scared of losing this election and will do anything to win. The political heirs of Lee Atwater have obviously learned well.
Slider From United States, joined Feb 2004, 4917 posts, RR: 34 Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1314 times:
Just remember that under current campaign laws, the parties and candidates cannot have any connection to the 527 groups.
Bingo...and Kerry knows it, because they both were conprehensively briefed on the "coordination clause" of the McCain-Feingold act, whereby NO CANDIDATE can COMMENT or endorse or denounce independent 527 ads...that's one of the provisions of the act, in order to maintain--at least in some formal sense--autonomy between a candidate, his party and the 527s.
240 Swift Boat Vets can't be wrong.
There are enough facts to stick. And the Democratic attack dogs have now put out 5 different versions of the Cambodia matter, while Kerry hasn't refuted or commented about that or ANYTHING related to his service.
And why hasn't he released those military records? Funny how Bush can be skewered for that, yet Kerry seems to be getting a free pass on all of that.
I agree with the reasoned folks that say we shouldn't make military service a prerequisite for a presidential campaign, but when Kerry has made it his CENTRAL FOCUS almost entirely, well, all's fair in love, war and politics.
Spinzels From United States, joined Jun 2004, 321 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1299 times:
Until then: in silencio consentium Mr. Kerry.
No reason to be quiet when your opponent is talking trash!!!
Kerry speaking today to the International Association of Fire Fighters:
"Of course, the President keeps telling people he would never question my service to our country. Instead, he watches as a Republican-funded attack group does just that. Well, if he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam, here is my answer: Bring it on."
Slider From United States, joined Feb 2004, 4917 posts, RR: 34 Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1293 times:
Oooh- interesting strategy by Kerry, thanks for the tidbit Spinzels.
Jaysit- that knife cuts both ways, clearly...to whit:
"If most of Kerry's fellow Swift veterans don't support him, then who were all those guys with him at the Democratic Convention? They made it appear that Kerry has the complete support of his "Band of Brothers" from Vietnam.
John Kerry has been able to convince about 13 men who served on Swift boats in the Mekong Delta to support him, 7 or 8 of whom were at various times crew members on his own 6-man boat. Those are the men the Kerry campaign so prominently featured at the Democratic Convention. The photograph we have posted at SwiftVets.com shows Kerry with 19 of his fellow Swift boat OICs (Officers In Charge) in Coastal Division 11. Four OICs were not present for the photograph. Only one of his 23 fellow OICs from Coastal Division 11 supports John Kerry.
Overall, more than 250 Swift boat veterans are on the record questioning Kerry's fitness to serve as Commander-in-Chief. That list includes his entire chain of command -- every single officer Kerry served under in Vietnam. The Kerry game plan is to ignore all this and pretend that the 13 veterans his campaign jets around the country and puts up in 5-star hotels really represent the truth about his short, controversial combat tour.
The Swift boats fought in groups, so the other OICs who fought alongside Kerry know him well and can accurately describe what he did and did not do. In many cases Kerry's fellow OICs had a better perspective than his own crew members, since the latter had no way to determine whether he was following orders and how well he worked with his peers.
Slider From United States, joined Feb 2004, 4917 posts, RR: 34 Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1291 times:
And something else that seems to be lost in the shuffle throughout the discussion of Kerry's war affairs: his story, what little he's divulged, has already changed. We're on the 5th iteration of the Cambodia matter already, yet the SBVT group has stood by it's work, stands by the facts it has reported.
"An impartial reader (if there is still such a beast in this election season) would have to conclude that either the book is a pack of lies or John Kerry is in fact a reckless, lying man who misrepresented the facts in order to receive medals he didn't deserve, and is indeed unfit to command even a tug boat, let alone the United States military as president.
The book appears to be meticulously researched and reported. It is replete with copious footnotes, a detailed index and two appendices. First-hand witnesses are named and quoted verbatim to support each specific, shocking charge. Each charge of false heroics is logically presented. Theauthors quote the official Navy citation and then present the purported eyewitnesstestimony that refutes the official finding. The witnesses who are summoned forth are officers and men who served simultaneously with Mr. Kerry in Coastal Division 11 and purport to be eyewitnesses to the events in question. "
N6376m From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1291 times:
Jay,
Arguing a bit out of both side of your mouth aren't you. It was Kerry who has made the issue of his service to the country the central issue of his campaign. I remember him saluting the country and indicating that he was "reporting for duty" at the DNC. So it's not the GOP who has tried to make his medals in consequential - they're just questioning whether he truly earned them?
Why is it okay to question whether GWB showed up for service but it isn't okay to question whether JFK earned his medals?
Your very own post, quoting Kerry still shows that he hasn't denied it. IMO this is all bullshit, I'm 100% sure GWB pulled strings to get into the ANG and in all probability skipped some days of service. I'm 90% sure that Kerry has "sexed up" in UK speak his accomplishments. At the end of the day, do the actions of two 20's something silver spoon kids 30 years ago really matter when determining who should lead the country today?
But to argue that the GOP started this when it was the Democrats who for 8 years argued that service to the country doesn't matter is disingenuous. Kerry opened the door, GWB and crew are entitled to cross-examine.
I think Kerry should end this today by coming out and categorically and unequivocally deny these accusations.
Jaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1284 times:
"But to argue that the GOP started this when it was the Democrats who for 8 years argued that service to the country doesn't matter is disingenuous. Kerry opened the door, GWB and crew are entitled to cross-examine."
Excuse me, but who's arguing a bit out of both sides of his mouth in addition to forgetting very recent history? Didn't the whole notion of military service pop up in the 1992 election when we had draft dodger Clinton up against decorated war veteran Bush Sr? You're not one of these 16 year old kids on here, so you were clearly following the election, and the GOP made the "absence of military service" a HUGE issue! Clinton's supposed draft dodging was paraded left, right and center through the media. And may I add that not once did ANYONE challenge Bush Sr's war credentials.
Well, now the Dems have trotted out their own decorated war veteran (finally having learned their lessons), sexed up or not. What goes for the goose goes for the gander, and all is fair in love and war and politics. Its not surprising that the GOP trotted out the Swift Boat Vets. Bush's goons berated McCain's records in 2000, trotted out rumors about his mental health post-Vietnam, and even said he had sired an illegitimate black child (the girl was his adopted Bangla Deshi daughter). However, its been a rather disingenuous and failed strategy - I think - because these guys have come off as confused, lying partisan hacks who apparently have little to base their accusations on. Furthermore, given Bush's own shaky Vietnam-era service record, comparatively Kerry is still shining.
Sponsor Message: 
From United States, joined Jun 2004, 321 posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
