william
Posts: 1569
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Russia And The Worldwide Defense Market

Sat Oct 27, 2001 12:02 pm

I have grown up as an Army brat going to airshows and living off Janes and Defense Weekly. What always amazed me was the increased value of a Russian Fighter compared to the US. Rest assured a Mig29 is cheaper and has more content(radar,weapon systems)than a F-16,its competitor. The same can be said of the SU-27,34and 37. compared to the F-15. Russia has the products

Yet quality control has held Russia back from being taken seriously. US air fighters are still the prominent in the world,if given a choice a country would rather purchase from the west. But that might be changing. With China,and India ponying up big money for Suks,the market place maybe changing. Maybe Russia is now learning how to market itself and get its reliability up too. This someithing the US defense makers should take notice of. With Defense budgets worldwide being squeezed getting more bang for the buck is more important than ever. The Day(and this may be far off)the west's best customers such as Israel or Saudi Arabia,find the Russian aircraft appealing,is the day the western contractors will find they took Russia for granted.
 
fireblade
Posts: 515
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:13 am

RE: Russia And The Worldwide Defense Market

Sat Oct 27, 2001 9:34 pm

'if given a choice a country would rather purchase from the west.
Purchase what ?
Imagine yourself as a lider of a independent country if you need a 40 heavy weight fighters .What would you do spent 1 200 000 000$ on su-30 or 2 400 000 000 on f-15,typhoon, or rafales.
Or you need long range SAM s-300 with 150km killing range cost 600 000 000 $ and patriot cost double 1.2 billions with twice smaller range 70km.
 
Guest

RE: Russia And The Worldwide Defense Market

Sat Oct 27, 2001 11:16 pm

->quote: Yet quality control has held Russia back from being taken seriously. US air fighters are still the prominent in the world,if given a choice a country would rather purchase from the west. <-

if you check the statistics, you will find that USAF has had more crashes and maintainence systems failure than RUSAF. (if you will count the RUSAF losses during the air shows - i will think less of you.) just like US said - we build plains... Russians build flying tanks.
our newest engins, that have no anologies in the world (Al-41), and the onse that are jamed in Su-30MK (Al-31fn)maintain perfect sbility during all flight procces, on any degree of attack angle, under any overload that the plain has had expepiences during maneuvres up untill today. that is our quality.
trust me, it is not the primer reason why we are being neglected by the rest of the world. the reason is way more simpler than that - US can cut of pretty much any country off of its traid with them and the whole NATO countries, causing economical fall of that given country. that is why, for instance, Turkey "happily" buys US made a/c, mean while Turkish inflation rate last year was 1000%...
...
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Russia And The Worldwide Defense Market

Sat Oct 27, 2001 11:25 pm

Actually, that's what we have the What's cool in Russia? for.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy Although, the quality of replies in that thread has been going down lately, so, starting a new thread seems to be a good idea.  Smile

Anyways, I really don't know what you mean by saying that Russia should get its reliability up. What's up with you Americans saying that Russian a/c are not reliable?  Confused If anything, they are more reliable than Western a/c. Just look at Russian (Soviet) 4th generation fighters vs. US-made 4th generation fighters. The reason why Russian a/c are so much cheaper than Western ones is not reliability but cheap work force in the CIS (sometimes they don't get paid at all), and the fact that there aren't many countries buying CIS-made eqipment (at least not newly-manufactured, anyways) nowadays. Israel, for example, will not purchase Russian (I should say "non-American") defense products, because of three reasons: a) They get financial aid from the US to buy American defense products, which means they get them almost for free. That is not as bad a deal as it sounds for the Americans, BTW. The American defense contractors have a constant market for their products, people don't get laid off etc. b) Compatibility with the IAF's doctrines, maintenance procedures, ground equipment, missiles etc. may be difficult with non-American equipment. c) US political pressure. The Americans want Israel to "buy" weapons from them, for the reasons stated in "a)". I don't know how much it applies to other US allies, but I would assume it is somewhat similar in each case.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
LY744
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RE: Russia And The Worldwide Defense Market

Sat Oct 27, 2001 11:58 pm

I didn't see your post when I was replying, MiG-29-Sniper.

BTW, the Russian AF doesn't have as many crashes as the USAF because their a/c don't fly (.) nearly as much.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Guest

RE: Russia And The Worldwide Defense Market

Sun Oct 28, 2001 2:52 am

well, yeah, but still... they used to fly a lot before, during the USSR, and even then, they maintained superb reliebility. (i shouldnt say "even then")

but it's kinda reasuring that somebody said pretty much what i have said without ever reading my post!
SVD
 
fireblade
Posts: 515
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:13 am

RE: Russia And The Worldwide Defense Market

Sun Oct 28, 2001 4:51 am

They get financial aid from the US to buy American defense products, which means they get them almost for free. That is not as bad a deal as it sounds for the Americans, BTW. The American defense contractors have a constant market for their products, people don't get laid off etc.
That's BS Alex nobody gives nothing for free.
This is the right reason.I could give you a free wepon if you must in the future buy spare parts and ammunition FROM ME .
We get free hoyes from us [new one! also they offers us apaches and cobras] but when we calculate expenses keeping them airborne from the 6 months it show up that we payed tham fora 30%.Imagine what will be calculation after a 10 years .
So when you buy 3 craft you also buy 1 craft worth of spares don't even mention ammunition.If you don't do that you'll get only a museum of craft.
 
LY744
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

Fireblade

Sun Oct 28, 2001 5:02 am

Sure, Israel has a lot of defense expenses that it pays with its own money, but in terms of money, they get American hardware for probably less than 10% of their real value. The thing is, that they get a certain amount of money each year from the US Gov. That money can only be used to buy American-made defense equipment. Israel's other major defense supplier is... Israel. They make everything from bullets to battle tanks. Their defense industry is mostly Government owned, but it still costs (a lot) money (materials, workforce) to make that stuff. They also purchase certain equipment from other countries, for example, submarines from Germany.

In conclusion, yes, under some conditions you can get things for almost free (in terms of money, anyway). But then again, the people who make that hardware do get paid, and don't get fired, so it is a pretty good deal for both sides. Obviously, aside from the financial benefits the US also has Israel as a guaranteed ally, and can expect Israel's cooperation (see my reply in the "what do you think of the IAF" thread for examples).

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
william
Posts: 1569
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

So Why Isn't Russia Leading?

Sun Oct 28, 2001 9:00 am

I have read your posts and they sound reasonable(even the Defense Weekly speaks highly of Suk aircraft).

Other than Russia getting some company from Europe to market their aircraft(which they have done a few years ago) what could Russia do to expand its market? Is it do t ignorance? It sure isn't lack of Air Shows demos,what is it?

As regards the parts issue. Yeah,you may get a "dumbed" down F-16(you expect the US to sell the latest issue do you?) For free,and pay for parts,but wouldn't a cheaper Russian fighter ALSO have cheaper parts? Its not an apples to apples comparison.

In regards to the reliability problem that was the story being told in the 90s,so yes this may have changed. If reliability is not a problem,then Russia really should be scratching their heads.
 
Guest

RE: Russia And The Worldwide Defense Market

Sun Oct 28, 2001 9:33 am

you know? i've been saying the same thing. the problem is simple - people have always been used as a workforce, slaves. the only thing they knew is how to obey. when 10 years ago USSR collapesed, people didnt know what to do. high class stoll all the money (those are now New Russians, as we call them) and the rest of the people ended up on streats. we have a lot of profesionals, but they are not needed by anyone whatsoever. Russia needs managers, somebody radical, somebody who can rule, somebody who can reason, somebody who cares about people - not the money... but we dont have them... all we have is a pile of fucking assholes who will sell their mothers for a buck and who steel and fuck others and dont give a shit about the country... sorry...
pretty hard problem, huh... well, we had worse,,, and we will rise! it's a metter of time and people like me and my friends who gain our power here, abroad, and who will return to dumb those bitches to where they should be...
SVD
 
Guest

RE: So Why Isn't Russia Leading?

Sun Oct 28, 2001 10:05 am

While I agree with Sniper, there is another reason.
All the EE nations have turned towards NATO. Now if you're in the PFP or NATO (or an aspiring NATO member), your gov't will be pressured to buy Western equipment because they are "NATO standard". Even if you want to keep your old Soviet equipment it's Western firms (like DASA with Polish MiG-29s) or Israeli ones (MiG-21 and 29 in Romania, the failed project in Croatia) - let's not forget Israel is basically a part of "the West" - that do your modernizing and standardizing. Even though your AF people might want new MiG-29SMTs, your gov't might end up buying used F-16s to "get closer to" NATO. Russia has lost much of its political leverage in the countries that can currently afford new military equipment.
 
fireblade
Posts: 515
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:13 am

RE: Russia And The Worldwide Defense Market

Sun Oct 28, 2001 8:38 pm

. Russia has lost much of its political leverage in the countries that can currently afford new military equipment.
Yes exept china INDIA IRAN AND MAYBE FEW OTHERS BUT in europe russian power doesn't mean a shit so russia couldn't sell even a rifle to any european country because we are all pressurized to buy weatern equipment[macedonia buy from ukraine only because usa doesn't wanted to sell us a weapon when we need otherwize we would fly apaches and cobras]
William most powerfull reason to buy somebody else armament is politics.
 
MiG31
Posts: 86
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RE: Russia And The Worldwide Defense Market

Mon Oct 29, 2001 2:27 am

Might be a little off topic but I just found out that Russia's military budget for 2002 will be around US$ 8 billion...


All the best!
 
cobra27
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:57 pm

RE: Russia And The Worldwide Defense Market

Mon Oct 29, 2001 6:02 am

I am wondering how can russia with survive with only 8 billions compared to the american which is 303 billions.
BTW: anyone knows how much was their budget during coldwar

But russian still has the best missiles and nuclear weapons.
 
fireblade
Posts: 515
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:13 am

Cobra27

Mon Oct 29, 2001 6:57 am

About 120billions us 250 billions.
Slobodan
p.S.long time Cobra27
 
Guest

RE: Russia And The Worldwide Defense Market

Mon Oct 29, 2001 7:05 am

well, it's not like we're going to global war anytime soon, or at least i hope we arent... but the budgets during the cold war were about 99% for the military. (joking of cource).
but you're right about our nuclear missales - one of the best ones, US was so scared about, was the one that pelengated over 1000 falsy targets against one to three real nucliar charges. try to hit that one, huh! or try to hit like 5 of them - that is over 5000 false pelengators against 9 real charges. that missale (thank God) never found any use against naybody and was quit from production and changed by a more "fair" missale Topol' M (which is a piece of shit!)
DimaN
 
warlord
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MIg-29-sniper

Mon Oct 29, 2001 10:42 pm

What missile are you talking for?
 
Guest

RE: Russia And The Worldwide Defense Market

Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:00 pm

???for or about???

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