LY744
Topic Author
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sat Nov 03, 2001 11:34 pm

In one of the threads, people started comparing the Apache and the Hind, so I decided to start this thread so we can all discuss it here.


AH-64A/D Apache/Apache Longbow

Day and night, medium ground attack helicopter.

- Length (with rotors):

17.76m (approx. 58ft)

- Main rotor type:

4 blades

- Main rotor area:

168.11 sq m

- Engines:

2 T700-GE-701

- Max power output for each:

1695 hp

- MTOW:

9225 kg (approx 20500 lb.)

- Max speed:

365 km/h

- Max cruise speed:

296 km/h

- Ceiling:

6400m (approx 21000ft) 3290m with only one engine (approx 10500)

- Range:

480km without ext. fuel tanks

- Weapons:

- up to 16 AGM-114A/K/L Hellfire laser/radar guided missiles
- up to 76 70mm unguided rockets
- up to 4 FIM-92A Stinger short range, IR guided AA missiles
- M230 30mm cannon. 625 rpm. 1200 rounds.
- up to 4 external fuel tanks

- Grew:

2, gunner/systems operator in front seat, pilot in the back


Mi-24 Hind

Ground attack and transport helicopter. Based on Mi-8. Limited night capability.

- Length:

18.8 m (approx 62ft.)

- Main rotor type:

Single, 5 blades

- Main rotor area:

235 sq m

- Engines:

2 Klimov TV3-117

- Max power output for each:

2200 hp

- MTOW:

11500kg (approx 25000lb)

- Max speed:

330 km/h

- Max cruise speed:

270 km/h

- Ceiling:

5000m (approx 16400ft.)

- Range:

500 km without external fuel tanks

- Weapons:

- up to 12 Shturm radio-command guided missiles
- various unguided rockets
- various short range AA missiles
- various cannons on different models, calibers varying from 12.7mm to 30mm

- Crew:

2-3


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sat Nov 03, 2001 11:45 pm

According to an Article I read in Air&Space. The engines and the transmission on the Hind have a 6 minute hover limit before they have to be taken off for inspection.

Also most of the lift inflgiht comes from the wing not the rotor system. So with a full weapons load it has to constantly keep flying forward.

An Apache can hover with it's weapon load. That makes for a more stable and therefore more accurate platform.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 12:02 am

Ah-64 was made against Mi-24. and it is more powerfull than Mi-24. so the use of this topic is rather questionable.
 
LY744
Topic Author
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RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:01 am

MiG-29-Sniper:

Absolutely! But I wasn't the one that brought the idea up, I just posted it! Didn't you see the post that said the Mi-24 is better than the AH-64?  Laugh out loud

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:09 am

no but i see VS in there
 
SouthernCRJ
Posts: 170
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2001 5:23 am

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:23 am


Hi LY744,

I think that we should compare the AH-64 with the Mi-28 or the KA-50/52, not with the Mi-24 (wich is designed more as an assault, than as an attack helicopter).
 
LY744
Topic Author
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:35 am

SouthernCRJ/MiG-29-Sniper:

I know that guys, again, this thread goes to show just that.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
warlord
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:15 am

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 6:51 am

LY744
this was my statement
Mi-24 is better than apache[ah-64 can not fire while on move ,and hind is much cheaper
I meat better for Macedonia because of this three things:
-it's mich cheaper to buy or maintain
-we could use it as a transport for 8 soldiers so we don't have to buy another heli
-apache can not fir while in move that's very big problem for mountanious country as mkd apache will be easy day target .
Also there was no many night combat so having expensive attack heli is worthless.
Alexander

 
warlord
Posts: 66
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RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 7:11 am

LY744
I could use some help at rah-66 vs ka-52 thread i'm in a crossfire
Alexander
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 7:24 am

LY744
Don't you read what was said for APACHE?
It can not fire while on move .
That's is so big minus for APACHE that i think it shouldn't replace the cobra in noplace.
So this your numbers doesn't mean a shit in a mountanious terrain .Apache is good for desert but in the mountains no way.
And this comparation is kind of silly you should compare apache with cobra ,or havoc but don't you even think about ka-52 because
APACHE CAN NOT FIRE WHILE ON MOVE
GOT IT
Cube
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 7:29 am

where the hell did you all got that crap that it cant fire on move??? what the hell is the use of it then? fly and cause heart attack to your enemies??? what the fuck - i dont think your information is correct. give me a site where i can read that will ya, please.
Dee
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 7:39 am

warlord
Your friend will not help you because he and you doesn't know a shit about helis exept some numbers from a tables.
Did you know that 2 apaches crushed in albania because of..i can say bad weather ?
Real reason was probably a bad or mountanius terrain.
Or do you know what kind og ammo could penetrate apache armour?
9mm ,9 fucken mm
Or that a f-4 was shot down by mi-24?
So LY744 keep your ass out of rah-66 vs ka-52 thread.
That's an advice.
Cube
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 7:57 am

gee man, how old are you? 14? - swearing more than i do! take it easy. as one wise man said, it was me, "the truth is only one". so who is mistaken sooner or later will realise that...
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 8:11 am

gee man, how old are you? 14?
That's none of your concerns.
swearing more than i do! take it easy
In my part of san diego that's normal way of talking
guess where i line?
"the truth is only one". so who is mistaken sooner or later will realise that...
I didn't find it wise you skould listen what EMINEM ,Dr.Dre & LL COOL J SAY ABOUT THIS
CUBE


 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 8:32 am

i dont listen to others and dont tell me what to do. i know what i know, and i say what i say. but somehow i wish i had a little "talk" with you one on one now. i think 2 minutes would rotate your behavior 180 degrees after one.
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 8:51 am

The Apache can most definetly fire while on the move. Its not simply a mobile weapons platform. If it couldn't fire while on the move, that would eliminate the entire purpose of having a 2-person (pilot/weapons technician) crew.

And "not many night combat" warlord?
Throw me a fucking bone here, of course there are night strikes. The Apache is not a close air support platform, it is an ATTACK platform. Having night capability is an amazingly great advantage in any situation.

In any case, the Apache was not really designed as a countermeasure to the Hind. It was designed because Western Military planners knew they didn't stand a chance against Soviet armored columns simply by the numbers. The apache gave them the ability to have a stand off weapon that could destroy up to 16 Russian heavies per mission, without ever even getting inside range of the Tanks air defense measures.
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 9:07 am

I would like to have that lind of conversation but on equestion before that:
Do you good at judo, box ,karate or that kind of stuff?
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 9:23 am

The Apache can most definetly fire while on the move
Don't be silly.
Show me a one video with apackhe firing on move?
Cube
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 9:59 am

Battleborgcube, while I look for that video, you explain to me why they would have a two person crew, if the pilot couldnt just let the plane sit there while he fired off the guns.
 
LY744
Topic Author
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RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 10:54 am

Judging from the info supplied by L-188 (which sounds very reliable), the Mi-24 has to be able to fire on the move because it cannot hover!

As for the AH-64, the statement "it cannot fire on the move" is deffinetely wrong. If you said "it cannot fire Hellfire missiles on the move", it would have sounded reasonable. Off course it can fire on the move! Unguided rockets and the cannon fire whenever the gunner/pilot feel like it. Would it hit the target? Well I bet it would have less chances to, but quite likely, yeah.

Not being able to fire while on the move is not as a big deal as you (overzealous Russian aviation fans) try to make it to be. You people contradict yourselves. First you say the AH-64 is not effective in mountainous areas, then you say it cannot fire on the move. The AH-64 is likely to "hide" behind trees, hills, etc. Then, it gets above the obstacle (hovering), and shoots its missiles, firing on the move is not even very useful for it!

Battleborgcube:

Keep your mouth shut, and don't tell me what to reply to. Apparently you have absolutely no understanding of the modern battle environment. Stick to Star Trek or whatever. You haven't said a thing except "Apache cannot fire on the move", and demonstrated no apparent signs of you even knowing what that means for an attack helicopter.

Warlord:

I haven't checked the forum out in a couple of hours, sorry!


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
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RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 5:10 pm

I'll have to look and see if I still have that back issue of that magazine.

BTW. The Apache can fire on the move. But that being said. Most tactics call for the helicopter to hide behind something big, hill, mountain, trees and have a OH-58D do the targeting. When the target is illuminated by the OH-58 the Apache quickly pops up, sights the illuminated target, gets it's shot off and ducks down behind the hill, tree or mountain again.

An OH-58 is a much smaller and less expensive target then the AH-64.

BTW. Back in the day when I was in the Army I was assigned to a Brigade Headquarters with 3 Apache Squadrons/Battalions assigned to it.

I may have picked up a couple of things.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
L-188
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RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 6:17 pm

LY744.

Keep in mind to that the primary armaments for the Hind would have been those four 57MM rocket pods. Can't remember how many shots that they had on those pods. But the russians used them on many many different platforms.

Got to hand it to the Soviets they really like their rockets.

If memory serves those 4 anti-tank missles where wire guided. And would have been steered to the target by the guy in the front seat.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
yka
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RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 6:53 pm

My Enyclopedia of Modern Warplanes, classifys both the Apache and Hind in the same category....Close Support and Counter-Insuregency. However the Apache is better suited for the attack role thanks to its advanced avionics/targeting system and hellfire missles.

I think we should compare the Apache to a more capable rival, the Mi-28 Havok. With its IR suppression exhaust, IR decoys, titanium armour and optronic sighting and targeting system which also controls the undernose 30mm cannon as in the Apache. This chopper can also carry AAM for self defence against other helicopters. I think its a very promissing design and may be the perfect choice for nations that cannot afford the apache.

It also looks pretty cool, check it out..





 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 8:48 pm

i'd put it a bit diferently. Ah-64 is better than Mi-24. but Mi-28N is better than Ah-64... and it is, trust me on that one. i have a movie where Mi-28 perform a loop in air. up till Ka-50 only a/cs could do something like that. then Ka-50 was the firs to make it with the help of its prop construction, blahblahblah... and Mi-28 was the first, i think, heli with such prop construction to do the same thing, and on reletivly low altitudes!!! it wasnot high at all when it did it! (and that was quite amasing seeing such a huge and heavy heli doing what planes do so easily and lightly. )

((dont mind this one the rest of you guys) - but you karrate kid - i wish you were that tough over here... and just make your qureosity go away, i'm good enough in Russian fist fight and marshal arts)
 
LY744
Topic Author
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RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 10:48 pm

The Mi-24 can carry up to 128 unguided rockets (4 containers of 32, also can use containers of 20).

LY744.

Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 10:51 pm

and about Ah-64, somebody said that firing on move aint that important. i disagree. you said, Alex was it?, that it can hide nicely in trees and stuff, right? well, what if there are no trees? and there are fewer mountains or rather hills... then what? a heli must react fast, up down, left, right, fire, slide... it has to move! if there are trees, wooo, go nuts, hide anywhere you want, but one got to keep the thought of "while i'm hiding, and somebody maybe knowing that i'm hiding here, that somebody might move closer and fire upon me when i try to show my nose out!" and Ah-64 is not that hard to hit, especially if somebody who is hitting has a granade launcher, or so called under-berrel g.l. or it would completely suck if something like a BTR or ZRK is hiding at the same tree terrain!!! then you're realy screwed!
 
L-188
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RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 10:57 pm

MiG-29-Sniper.

I think that you are refering to my comment about tactics. Which I did not say that firing on the move was not important.

As far as flying capablities go.

I have seen Apaches perform manuvers that I didn't think helicopters where capable of. This is comming from somebody who has lived within a mile of an airport since he was in the first grade. Also I spent a year and a half on an Apache base.

I haven't seen the Mi-28 put through it's paces but that said the Apache is a hard act to follow.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
L-188
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RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 11:06 pm

Oh no. I see where that fire on the move comment came from Warlord, not me.

That information is incorrect.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
LY744
Topic Author
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RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 11:12 pm

I did say that not being able to fire on the move is not as big of a disadvantage as people are making it to be. D, if you want something that can fire while moving, get an Su-25! Hovering for 1 sec to launch a missile/rocket is not going to (well, in most cases) kill you. Also, I'm sure it can fire Stingers while moving. Also, it is easy to say that the Mi-24 can fire while moving because it mostly relies on unguided rockets! What about those cable and radio command guided missiles? Do you think it can fire them while moving?

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
L-188
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RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 11:22 pm

I wouldn't think it would be that serious of a problem. firing those wire guided missles.

I agree with you about the overemphasis on fire-on- the move capability.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Sun Nov 04, 2001 11:50 pm

well, i just touched on that since everybody was so thrilled about it. but about guaded rockets. on Mi-35 they are installed and i dont see any problem firing them on move. Ka-50 fires Vihr' on move no problem. it fires it on sliding, back, forward, up and down, anywhere... gueded rockets are for much longer distanse tho. i dont know how is it in Mi-24, but in Ka-52 you have a big, half of ILS, display box. and it doesnt depend weather you move or not, as long as the target is within that box, fire till you out! where as PTURSs (ungueded missales of 80mm, and 60 was it?) they are for closer range, but not neceserely visible. but that's once again on Ka-52. you have a small box, that is where the tank or whatever is located. you maneuvre so that a cercle apears over that box, and you fire when the box becoms solid. nothing hard. and as for the gun, you have an X looking thing but kind of spread apart on the target, it locks automaticaly or using pilots head pointer. it becoms solid X and that is when you ought to fire.
whats for Ah-64, i've seen it move, on TV, aint gonna lie. but i didnt see anything extraordinary, and can assure you that Ah-64 wont ever go for a vertical fight performing something like a dead loop. its engines are most likely to fail due to oil and fuel apparting from the pump.
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Mon Nov 05, 2001 4:26 am

Battleborgcube, while I look for that video, you explain to me why they would have a two person crew, if the pilot couldnt just let the plane sit there while he fired off the guns.

Every flight near the ground is very hard that's not hollywood.Do you know why do they make ka-52 ?
Because it was too hard to fly a single seater in the strikes extremely hard.And about put plane to sit still please don't make me laugh the enemy will be happy that you're act as a easy target .
Ly744
First learn something more about helicopters than start to reply.Modern tactics are in the fast strikes apache is designed to fire from a distance beyond the visual range when it fires hellfires but you can not fight
all the fights like that many times you have to go to the battlefield.Kelfires are good for destroying the tanks but attack heli should destroy man prower,bunkers, snipers nests,give support to the troups and many othetr things who can not be done from a distance ,and from staying still.Apache is not good at mountanious terrain because it manouvers ability are not so good as it should be for a modern heli even the old cobra is better for manouvres.Apache is great for the dessert like the storm but i suggest you to don't send those in Afghanistan.
Cube

 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Mon Nov 05, 2001 5:23 am

Bottlekid-> Every flight near the ground is very hard that's not hollywood.Do you know why do they make ka-52 ?
Because it was too hard to fly a single seater in the strikes extremely hard.
-> no it's not. the onboard hight control systems periodicaly tells you when you're at a critical high level and prevents the run into it automaticaly (that could be turned off by the crew). and Ka-52 was desighed as a modification as to progress of Ka-50 which is 20 ******* years old. it's main purposes are night missions (as ka-50sh - also a modern modif) team leader - for it has very powerfull radar systems it can be used as a "shower" (comes from the word to show, in contecst means to show where the enemy is) to the helis with less eficient radar systems such as ka-50.
no coment on the rest of the stuff.
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Mon Nov 05, 2001 5:37 am

there you go guys! enjoy

>http://www.brazd.ru/stat/sravnenie_mi28_ah64.phtml<
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Mon Nov 05, 2001 5:57 am

Because it was too hard to fly a single seater in the strikes extremely hard.
-> no it's not.
BS why are the all new kelicopters twinseaters ,rah-66,hokum ,ka-52 why don't they make another single seaterMulti-role all-weather combat Ka-52 "Alligator" helicopter is a twin-seat derivative of the attack Ka-50. It is intended for a wide range of combat tasks in daytime and night conditions, in any time of the year with the use of all destruction means of the Ka-50. This is a commander helicopter of the army aviation aimed at increasing the efficiency of group combat helicopter operations.



 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Mon Nov 05, 2001 6:03 am

BS why are the all new kelicopters twinseaters ,rah-66,hokum ,ka-52 why don't they make another single seaterMulti-role all-weather combat Ka-52 "Alligator" helicopter is a twin-seat derivative of the attack Ka-50.
-> find me any other heli with a single seat before 20 years ago and after. Ka-50 was an experiment. and it was a successful one.
and would you please stop repeating what i say using your own words!!! (are mine not enough for you to understand or something?)
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Mon Nov 05, 2001 6:13 am

Se my re at comanche whity it come from the russian source
Cube
 
yka
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 3:00 am

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Mon Nov 05, 2001 6:27 am

There a cool new game just came out called "Ka-52 Team Aligator"...im downloading the demo now.
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Mon Nov 05, 2001 6:41 am

yeah, that's the one i flew on!!!
it's really good!

ну что будем парня успокаевать психологически, а то он ща и до родителей доберется...
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Mon Nov 05, 2001 6:54 am

...that sim is used as a training tool wired to the cabin of a real heli and screened before you. i passed all the rtaining missions!!! so i'm pretty much authorised to fly it. but im not a RUSAF pilot so i dont really get to fly it just yet, and it's not in servise - but if you ever get a chance to have practice in the real cabin with wires attached to the control panel, you should really try to fly something like that, it's really cool (expecially when you hit the ground  Smile)
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Mon Nov 05, 2001 8:20 am

Are Israeli AH-64s armed with AA missiles on the ends of their errr wings (?)
 
LY744
Topic Author
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SJC>SFO

Mon Nov 05, 2001 8:57 am

Those AA missiles are FIM-92A Stingers. And, no, IAF AH-64s are not equipped with them. No IAF helicopter carries AA missiles. Their pilots do however train in close range AA combat with other helicopters, using their cannons, and even AG missiles and rockets!

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Mon Nov 05, 2001 9:33 am

Funny. I seem to remember seeing photos of AH-64s armed with sidewinders.
 
L-188
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RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Wed Nov 07, 2001 6:19 pm

There have been a number of different weapons proposed for the Apache, Stingers, Mica's, Python, Sidewinder, just to name a few.

Some have been test flown.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Thu Nov 08, 2001 7:14 am

Ah-64 does have the ability to cary Stingers.
 
LY744
Topic Author
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RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Thu Nov 08, 2001 10:18 am

We all know that it has the ability to carry FIM-92's, but does anyone actually uses that ability? I know the IAF sure doesn't.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Thu Nov 08, 2001 6:56 pm

well, there isnt a global war going on anywhere with some very advanced countries where each heli would cary AA misales. so if there is the ability, they will be used if needed. it would be the same if you'd ask if Mi-24 or Mi-8 use AA misales in Chechnja? - no they dont cause there are no air opponents. so why cary them, if you'll never use 'em? can they cary the AA misales - yes they can.
can be used and are used... different things and i dont really see how they fit to this discusion.
 
Wasilenko
Posts: 256
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RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Thu Nov 08, 2001 9:03 pm

I just want to comment on the good old days of Russian/Soviet aviation. Mi-24 became the world's first helicopter to shot down a fighter jet (probably the only one). During the Gulf War an Iraqi Mi-24 shot down a NATO fighter. I can not confirm the type as I don't have the source on me, has any one heard about that or can confirm this fact?

Wasilenko
 
LY744
Topic Author
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RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Thu Nov 08, 2001 9:20 pm

Wasilenko:

An Iraqi Mi-24 shot down an Iranian F-4 Phantom in the 80's (during the Iraq-Iran war). That was the first time a helicopter shot down a fighter. No other such incidents occured, certainly not in the Gulf war.

MiG-29-Sniper:

The Mi-8 cannot carry AA missiles.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Guest

RE: Mi-24 Vs. AH-64

Fri Nov 09, 2001 1:07 am

oh MY GOD!!! man, Mi-8 can carry AA misales! (at least modifications can) it's over 20 years old, naturaly i dont mean the first model ever flown.

and by the way:
- Max speed:

365 km/h - factualy incorrect

- Max cruise speed:

296 km/h - does that make sence???

and second:
- Max speed (of Mi-24):

330 km/h - you probably didnt know that the world speed record of 367km/h was attained by Mi-24, do ya?!
regards to the kindergarden, out for good.
D

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