A345-Fan
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Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 2:16 am

Hi @all!

In Germany we have a very interesting discussion at this moment in the politics; there are still some questions because of the financial effects of the order.

Our german Air Force needs a new Transporter because of the old TransAll-Aircrafts which are too old and the specifications are not very good of them (range, payload etc.), too.

The german gouvernment is very interested in the A400M and will sign the contract in the near future.
But I think it is very crazy to read out of the newspapers that the A400M is not able to carry heavy vehicles or tanks.
For some transports to Afghanistan the german gouvernment had to rent some AN-124!

My opinion is that the C17 is the best military transporter worldwide and I cannot understand why to choose the A400M ... Just have a look on the specifications. And I don't think that the A400M will be (much) cheaper, too.

What's your opinion?

Greetings from Germany,

A345-Fan
 
GDB
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RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 2:57 am

The A400M will meet German needs, but they don't need 73, that's just to get more workshare, in any case no one really thinks that 73 would ever get funded. More like 50.
Sure the C-17 is more capable, it's also a lot more expensive. The USAF wanted 210, so far they got 120 and are trying for another 60.
If the A400M project dies, which despite Rudolf Sharping playing his usual destructive games, it probably won't, (remember how he tried to scrap the Eurofighter in 1992, all he did was add to delays and costs), the RAF would increase it's C-17 fleet to 12, and buy more C-130Js.
But the delays are silly, here is an opportunity to build a transport with much better lift capability than the C-130J, which is restricted by it's fuselage width, and more affordable than the C-17, with some of it's capability.


 
LY744
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RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 5:54 am

Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
PW4084
Posts: 287
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RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 1:15 pm

GDB, I think the official USAF C-17 order currently stands at 134.

PW4084
 
steman
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RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Thu Jan 24, 2002 6:30 pm

Italy already withdrew from the A400M project after having signed a LoI for 16 examples last year.
Our Air Force said that we don't need that airplane but there are more urgent needs in the AF: the tankers, the AWACS platform and MLU for AMX and TORNADO.
We have already ordered our new tankers in the shape of 4 B767TT.
Our Transoprt Brigade (the 46th at Pisa) is in the process of replacing its 12 C-130Hs with 12 C-130Js and 10 C-130J-30s plus two more options for the J-30s; we have also placed an order for 12 C-27Js and another order may follow to replace the current 40 strong G-222 fleet.
What the Italian Air Force might need is a more capable, truly strategic airlifter for global reach missions: the C-17 is in this respect a lot more suited than the A400M. And as the RAF showed, a leasing of few examples (from 4 to 8) could turn out to be the best option.

However, during the recent polemics which led also to the resignation of the Foreing Affair Minister in Italy, somebody said that the European Union Countries should begin to think to a Joint Air Force, maybe beginning with an Air Transport Brigade built up with Cargos bought in common.

Ciao

Stefano
 
AFC_Ajax00
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RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Sun Jan 27, 2002 10:21 pm

C-17 Globemaster III, overall more capable,
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward; for there you long to return
 
spectre242
Posts: 134
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 10:46 am

RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Mon Jan 28, 2002 4:00 am

The C-17 is more capable and probably the better option for today's large air force where conflict around the world means armed forces may have to deploy quicky thousands of miles away. However, the potential economic benifits of the A400M could out weigh that, esspecially for the European partners who would have the industrial benifit of manufacturing the aircraft. Perhaps a mixed force is not out of the question, esspecially for a large air force such as the RAF, a squadron or two of each for different jobs. IN a conflict situation, if one is easier to maintain in the field, it culd be deployed ot the area for transport duties in that region, whereas the other culd transport supplies to and from the region back to home. Although having both types would raise maintanence costs, but the USAF has 3 heavy transports and seem to get by okay.
 
777lover
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RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:58 am

Go C-17 Big thumbs up
 
Alessandro
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RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Wed Jan 30, 2002 8:10 am

Well, the A400M is locally made so maybe thats the main reason to choose that one. But in my opinion the
Antonovs rule the show they still have huge problems with their AN-70 design, so it will be the old designs that will continue to rule...
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Hamfist
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RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Fri Feb 01, 2002 9:38 am

I seem to remember reading an article in the last 8-12 months that said there was a possibility that some US cargo companies were interested in a civilian version of the C-17. Has anyone else heard this? If so, it seems like it would help the USAF two-fold. First, I assume that would spread the cost and make future acquisitions less expensive. Second, I'm sure the military would want to include the civilian models in the Civil Reserve Air Fleet.

So, back to the original post...it seems that might also shave some of the cost if the German air force was interested in the C-17?
 
LY744
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RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Fri Feb 01, 2002 10:27 am

I believe the proposed civilian version of the C-17 was called the MD-17. Not sure of the status of the program. Would the USAF, as the main customer, be happy about a wide array of civilians having access to an a/c almost identical to the one it operates?

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Hamfist
Posts: 606
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RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Fri Feb 01, 2002 10:54 am

I don't think the DoD would mind having a civilian version. It's not like the C-17 is top secret technology. Besides, the civilian version wouldn't require many of the systems needed on the military version(i.e. self-defense measures).
 
N400QX
Posts: 1981
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RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Fri Feb 01, 2002 3:54 pm

C-17!!!

And, I agree... it'd be awesome to see a civilian version, the BC-17, in service with cargo carriers, for example.

I've been in a C-17 and it is a really great aircraft. Great to have some based here at McChord.

N400QX
 
L-188
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RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Fri Feb 01, 2002 7:38 pm

Paper airplane vs. real one.

Got to go with the real one.

Esp. when you consider the paper one does not offer any major revolutions or increased capablities that would offset the risk from an unproven and unflown design.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
GDB
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RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Fri Feb 01, 2002 11:27 pm

All aircraft start as paper designs.
C-17 is much too expensive for most airforces, and for some, the C-130J is not capable enough.
Something in the middle is needed.
 
L-188
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RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Sat Feb 02, 2002 12:12 am

True but that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

If you are competing a drawing board aircraft against real ones such as the C-17, C-130J and the AN-70 you have got to have some sort of, for lack of better term, Gimmick.

Such as, more size, more efficency or better preformance.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
duggan
Posts: 103
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RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Fri Feb 08, 2002 11:43 pm

The German General in charge of the call for offer chose the An-7X just before the European Affairs Minister said the A-400M would be preffered.
This General quit...
 
jwenting
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RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Sat Feb 09, 2002 3:45 am

Germany does not need an aircraft in the A400M/C-17A class. The C-130J would be ideal.
Both A400M and C-17 are too large for them.
German officials are under orders from Berlin not to say negative things about the A400M... And ANY NATO country would prefer anything over a Soviet (oops, Russian) product, as those do not fit into the NATO standardised system of equipment.
I wish I were flying
 
GDB
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RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Sat Feb 09, 2002 4:07 am

No doubting the politics in Germany's A400M saga.
But, new version of a wonderful aircraft the C-130J may be, it cannot carry many critical items of military equipment.
C-130J would be a quantum leap from the C-160's, but if the Rapid Reaction Force is to be taken seriously, they need an airlifter with a better capacity than C-130J.
That's why the RAF were so keen to lease some C-17's, despite getting some C-130Js.
They are the only European airforce with any kind of seemingly permanment, increasing commitments outside the NATO area.
(Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Falkland Islands, Sierra Leone on operations, lots of other places for exercises).
If A400M falls down, expect more RAF C-17's, a total of 12 being bought has been mentioned, and more C-130Js, maybe another 25.
They may get 2 more on lease anyway.
 
LY744
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RE: Your Choice: A400M Or C17 Globemaster Iii?

Sat Feb 09, 2002 6:20 am

"And ANY NATO country would prefer anything over a Soviet (oops, Russian) product"

The An-70 is a joint venture of Ukraine (Antonov Design Bureau), Russia, and Uzbekistan.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it

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