airafrique
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 4:25 am

Cold War Scenario

Sun May 05, 2002 11:58 am

During the Cold War period, if there were a massive air war between the block East ( Russia & Allied) and the West ( USA & Allied ) WHO WILL WIN ?
 
2912n
Posts: 1978
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2001 2:12 pm

RE: Cold War Scenario

Sun May 05, 2002 1:01 pm

No one. It would have eventually involved nukes and everyone would be a loser.

West would have the tech advantage. East would have the numbers as well as equipment that would just go on and on without the tech support needed by western a/c.
 
usafjr
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 7:53 pm

RE: Cold War Scenario

Sun May 05, 2002 9:33 pm

In an airwar? I would say Allied. Yes we are short of pilots (according to NBC) but what ive heard is that our pilots are trained much better than most other countries.
 
Contact_tower
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:05 am

RE: Cold War Scenario

Sun May 05, 2002 10:47 pm

USAFJR: Read the question, then reply. The issue is the status between NATO and the Warsaw pact during the cold war. (It ended some time ago  Nuts )
 
AFC_Ajax00
Posts: 740
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2000 5:33 am

RE: Cold War Scenario

Mon May 06, 2002 1:05 am

I would say Western air forces, technically more advanced aircraft and pilots, commonality in C&C, and most aircraft (NATO F-16A's) and the huge advantage the USAF and NATO E-3A AWACS would have given the West, but the Soviets relied more on SAMS knowing the west had a superiority in pilot skill and aircraft but they still had huge numbers of Frontal Aviation aircraft in East Germany and Europe so the west would have taken severe losses but eventually come out on top,(providing the war didn't go Nuclear). This is all speculation however, so do correct me if im wrong. Cheers
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward; for there you long to return
 
airafrique
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 4:25 am

RE: Cold War Scenario

Mon May 06, 2002 1:23 am

I think in that case NATO and Allied will win that war.
I don't think the MIG or Sukhoi will stand against the
F-15, Mirage.

If there were a War, How many plane would be involved ?
 
Lt-AWACS
Posts: 2120
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2002 2:40 am

RE: Cold War Scenario

Mon May 06, 2002 2:38 am

"and the huge advantage the USAF and NATO E-3A AWACS would have given the West"
You're damn skippy  Smile  Smile  Smile


Air Power the West had a huge advantage.
SAMs the W Pact had a huge advantage.

Ciao and Hook 'em Horns,
Lt-AWACS
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
usafjr
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 7:53 pm

RE: Cold War Scenario

Mon May 06, 2002 4:09 am

Yeah, Allied & NATO detection systems would be much much better. How about the use of the Pheonix missile... 90 miles on that baby. I doubt the Russians have anything like that!
By the way contact_tower;
I very kindly and politely ask you to stop picking on me. I read the topic most completely. Thankyou!
 
Rene
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2001 7:55 am

RE: Cold War Scenario

Mon May 06, 2002 4:27 am

The problem with this question is, that there would never have been 'just' an air war. A war would have always included the other forces.
And then the Warsaw Pact would have had an advantage.
There was a tv-programme on air in Germany one or two years ago where they showed a possible scenario and came to the conclusion that the Warsaw Pact would have been a possible 'winner' and it sounded well thought.
Rememer the huge number of tanks and aircrafts in East Germany and Poland, not to forget the Navy.
The NATO would have had difficulties to stop them.
And many people forget, that many soviet types of aircraft where compatible with NATO equipment, so it would have been easy to use NATO airfields, after they had been taken over. And I don't think that NATO aircraft could have been used with soviet equipment.
You might think that training of NATO pilots was better than in the Warsaw Pact. But did pilots in the NATO practised landings on gras strips for example, not to forget that most NATO aircraft would have not been able to land on a gras strip.
What I want to say is that pilots and planes from the Warsaw Pact would have been (maybe) a little bit more flexible and more tough. Although it is not possible to really to compare their training 1:1. Both parties had different strategies regarding that topic.
And don't forget the psychological advantage. Soviet front units based in East Germany where something special. Their standards where high.
Well, just my two cents  Wink/being sarcastic
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Cold War Scenario

Mon May 06, 2002 7:07 am

"How about the use of the Pheonix missile... 90 miles on that baby. I doubt the Russians have anything like that!"

The AA-9/R-33 is close enough.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
usafjr
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 7:53 pm

RE: Cold War Scenario

Mon May 06, 2002 7:10 am

How far does the AA-9/R-33 Go? Please give me a link to a site that I could research it on.
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Cold War Scenario

Mon May 06, 2002 7:25 am

About 160 km according to most sources, real number is probably classified.

Here are a couple of links, if you want to research it you'll have to use some more sources (search engine):

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/aa-9.htm

http://www.wonderland.org.nz/AA9Notes.html

http://www.anadef.com/aa9.htm (Spanish)

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Contact_tower
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:05 am

RE: Cold War Scenario

Mon May 06, 2002 7:52 am

The AA12/R77 Adder is is allso a (on paper anyway) worthy adversary to the Aim-120 Amraam.
In the short range inventory, the AA11/R73 Archer is said to be far better then NATO missiles.
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Cold War Scenario

Mon May 06, 2002 8:36 am

Yeah, until the AIM-9X and the ASRAAM come around, the AA-11 and the Python 4/5 rule (by far) the short range AAM world.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
kolobokman
Posts: 1112
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 5:32 am

RE: Cold War Scenario

Sun May 19, 2002 8:40 am

There is a book called SPECNAZ (?) by Suvorov.
The last chapter of the book is a possible scenario of WW3.
Check it out in your library!

kolobok
I can neither confirm, nor deny above post
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Cold War Scenario

Sun May 19, 2002 2:24 pm

Am I the only one who thinks the Soviets would have won?

- Soviet forces in Europe were very well capable of destroying NATO forces before US reinforcements could arrive.
- The Soviet Atlantic fleet could take a heavy toll on US shipping, making the required huge amphibious landings very expensive at best.
- Soviet Pacific forces tie down the US Pacific and Indian Ocean fleets, basically reducing the US capacity in the main warzone by over 50%.
- In a largescale thermonuclear exchange, the Soviets were prepared and willing to accept loosing a city for every US city destroyed. The US was not prepared for that.

The true winners in a thermonuclear strategic exchange would be the Chinese, they'd wait until it was over and pick up the scraps.
I wish I were flying
 
VC-10
Posts: 3546
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 1999 11:34 am

RE: Cold War Scenario

Sun May 19, 2002 6:43 pm

The true winners in a thermonuclear strategic exchange would be the Chinese, they'd wait until it was over and pick up the scraps

Until the radiation cloud got them, if the nuclear winter didn't. Did you ever see the film "On the Beach"?
 
heavymetal
Posts: 4442
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am

RE: Cold War Scenario

Sun May 19, 2002 6:58 pm

- Soviet forces in Europe were very well capable of destroying NATO forces before US reinforcements could arrive.

That discounts the hundreds of thousands of NATO troops already in position. Right up until the mid 80s, Europe was an armed camp from the fences of the Iron Curtain west to the sea. Allied armour was simply better, technology like the F-117 would have wrecked havoc with their command and control structure, and air superiority after the initial few hours of an incursion would have tilted decidely against the Soviets.

- The Soviet Atlantic fleet could take a heavy toll on US shipping, making the required huge amphibious landings very expensive at best.

The Soviet fleet was one their biggest weaknesses. It was enormous and enormously obsolete. The biggest threat to transatlantic provisioning by ship would have been the Backfire and Blackjack fleets. And don't discount the "air bridge" that would have been established using hundres of military & large commercial transports.

- Soviet Pacific forces tie down the US Pacific and Indian Ocean fleets, basically reducing the US capacity in the main warzone by over 50%.

I think you would have seen the Pacific theatre fairly quiet in the event of a western Europe invasion. That is unless things started going very bad for one side or the other. Then the response would have been global, and I'm sure you can guess, hellish.

- In a largescale thermonuclear exchange, the Soviets were prepared and willing to accept loosing a city for every US city destroyed. The US was not prepared for that.

No sane human being was 'prepared' for a nuclear exchange. That's pure folly to suggest that they were. That's also why one never took place. It's easy to envision hardcore Soviet hawks in the upper echelons of the military and political apparatus perfectly prepared to do nuclear battle. They existed, as very much did similar types on the American side (SAC General Curtiss LeMay was as ready to fight...and win...a nuclear exchange throughout his career as SAC's top dawg and a member of the JCS. It is one of the great quirks of history that LeMay was viewed by practically everyone as a borderline psychopath.) Fortunately the LeMays on both sides were handled/discounted by (relatively)saner men who could easily envision a post-strike world.

Jwenting, if you haven't already, read what IMO is the definitive fantasisation of an actual "World War III", Red Storm Rising by Tom Clancy. In it he outlines a successful Soviet incursion into Western Europe, a brilliant Soviet occupation of Iceland, thereby choking the "air bridge" and imperiling the entire transatlantic supply line, and a successful first use of air forces against Allied naval shipping, as you implied earlier. Clancy has some shortcomings (I think it would have gone nuclear much faster) but...as he has unnervingly proved in OTHER fictional scenarios...the guy did his homework.

He also points out the Soviet weaknesses, the elements that eventually would have spelled defeat....first and foremost, the military bureaucracy that made Soviet forces cumbersome and unwieldy, secondly the Soviet "quality gap" in weaponry and technology, their tendency to stress quantity over the better weapons which they did not have....and finally the will of the Soviet government itself, which was always very fractured in how to deal with the West.

It's almost quaint to discuss the animosities of a time that really was not so long ago. We were blessed with an end to the Cold War only to find ourselves with a new faceless enemy with no tanks or navy or missiles, yet just as troublesome.


 
VC-10
Posts: 3546
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 1999 11:34 am

RE: Cold War Scenario

Sun May 19, 2002 7:30 pm

A book has been recently been published in the UK that suggest's the Russian never had any intention of invading the west.

Their military build up and 'occupation' of Poland, East Germany etc was because Russian territory had been invaded twice since the revolution and they wanted those countries as buffer zones to stop a third invasion. The author bases this asertion on studying Russion records.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Cold War Scenario

Sun May 19, 2002 8:14 pm

I wouldn't doubt that to be true there VC-10.

Lets face it that was pretty much the reason for the American presence in West Germany, Italy, Then Netherlands, and Great Britian also.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Cold War Scenario

Sun May 19, 2002 11:37 pm

Oh and there is one other thing that needs to be considered.

The American Forces there where based in Europe from the 70's on where all volunteers, to the best of my knowledge the majority, if not all of the Warsaw Pact troops where draftee's.

History has generally shown that a draftee army vs. a volunteer army will end with the the volunteer being victorious.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests