usafjr
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Wwii Planes

Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:17 pm

I hope there arnt 1000 other topics like this... but what WWII plane was the best dogfight plane? It doesnt matter if its allied or axis.
 
schreiner
Posts: 909
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2001 7:50 am

RE: Wwii Planes

Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:29 pm

Well... there are hundreds other topics about this one...

There were alot of good a/c:


Bad guys a/c: Me262/FW190/Me109/Zero

The allies could not done it without all these:

Good guys a/c: Hellcat/Bearcat/Spitfire/Mustang/Hurricane/Lightning/Yak-41

But all a/c had their advantage...
Example: Mustang: huge range - Lightning: very high speed and so on...

So there is not really a "best" plane...

Cheers,
Schreiner
Amsterdam

Soaring the internet...
 
broke
Posts: 1299
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:04 pm

RE: Wwii Planes

Fri Jun 14, 2002 1:59 am

The trick to success in dog fighting is to use your best attributes against the other guy's worse. For instance, at the beginning of the war the best Navy airplane was the F4F Wildcat and the best Army Air Force airplane was the P-40. Neither of these airplanes were near as manovuerable (sp??) as comparable airplanes of either the Germans or the Japanese. The Navy developed the "Thatch" weave where 2 pairs of F4F's supported each other and kept an attacker at bay. The "Flying Tigers" used the superior diving speed of the P-40 to make hit and run attacks against the Japanese. The A6M Zero was very manovuerable but because it was so light, it would torque roll when turning in the direction the prop rotated. Also, the Zero has little armor and no self sealing fuel tanks so the airplane couldn't take much damage. In Europe, the first American pilots used Spitfires and Hurricanes until the P-38 and P-47 arrived. Read about the development of the Bf-109 against the Spitfire where each development would give a slight edge over the other.
For instance, the early Spits were a little inferior to the Bf-109E. Then the Spitfire Mk 5 came out and the edge turned. Then the Bf-109F came out and the Mk 5 was at a disadvantge. So the Spitfire Mk 9 came out. The history of the Spitfire (Spitfire) by Jeffery Quill goes into this exchange quite a lot.
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Wwii Planes

Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:54 am

Yak-41? That's a modern VTOL fighterjet technology demonstrator (ask anyone in the F-35 program), a.k.a. Yak-141/Freestyle.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
2912n
Posts: 1978
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2001 2:12 pm

RE: Wwii Planes

Fri Jun 14, 2002 11:18 am

There was also a quality issue with pilots during WWII. As the war went on Allied pilots continued to get better, training evolved as combat lessons were learned. Training could be conducted in safety, (many allied pilots were trained in the US or Canada with no worries of maruding fighters ruining their day.) After Midway, when a serious core of Japanese pilots were killed the quality of their pilots went into serious decline. Fuel shortages for both Japan and Germany restricted pilot training. (Plus the Japanese had a very different style of training pilots. I don't have the details, but it was a very long drawn out process which did not lend itself to replacing combat losses quickly or efficiently.)
 
IMissPiedmont
Posts: 6200
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 12:58 pm

RE: Wwii Planes

Fri Jun 14, 2002 11:46 am

I do believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that the F6F shot down more enemy aircraft than any other fighter.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
schreiner
Posts: 909
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2001 7:50 am

RE: Wwii Planes

Fri Jun 14, 2002 8:37 pm

LY744... u r right... same on me... I mean the Yak-9 (?)

IMissPiedmont; I thought the hurricane has more kills... but thats because the F6F entered service later in the war.

The P47 actualy was also a very good a/c. It took lots of bullet-holes...  Smile

Cheers,

Schreiner
Soaring the internet...
 
zionstrat
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 3:26 am

RE: Wwii Planes

Sat Jun 15, 2002 12:38 am

Sorry Schreiner-
Hellcat has highest kill number and win/loss ratio (18:1)- I don’t have current Hurricane numbers, but if I remember correctly they were less than half of this- Here's some info:

http://www.concentric.net/~gspeter/Hellcat.htm

This is one of those debates that can never be resolved because of the variation mentioned before and because pilot experience was far more important than the platform (top German aces stuck with Me 109 long after it was surpassed by FW190).

However, on average, I would nominate the Corsair F4U. It was both fast, highly maneuverable, well armed and excelled in every role it was given. Sure the mustang was the best long range escort, the Zero or FW190, may have been most maneuverable, the ME262 was clearly fastest, but the Corsair could tangle with any of them in any environment and with pilot skill averaged out, they were in a position to win against any of them (short of a full speed strike from a ME262, but obviously this is apples and oranges).

The US intentionally spread the risk among many similar designs, so the differences are really narrow. But I honestly believed that if we could test all platforms in all major fighter roles, the Corsair would win by a nose.
 
usafjr
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 7:53 pm

RE: Wwii Planes

Sat Jun 15, 2002 12:40 am

P-51! yeah! there were more P-51b aces than in any other kind of plane, at least thats what I heard... you like what, 5 kills before your an ace?
 
GDB
Posts: 12678
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Wwii Planes

Sat Jun 15, 2002 2:23 am

What about the kill ratios of Soviet Yak-3's against the Luftwaffe, after the tide had turned against the Nazi's, (and when Luftwaffe pilot quality was in decline).
 
usafjr
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 7:53 pm

RE: Wwii Planes

Sat Jun 15, 2002 6:24 pm

Well... I dont know much about russian WWII planes, I know about modern ones.
 
GDB
Posts: 12678
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Wwii Planes

Sat Jun 15, 2002 8:20 pm

The biggest German aces of WW2 got most of their kills on the Eastern Front, when the German's were in the ascendency, and most Russian aircraft were obsolete.
I wondered if the tables were totally turned when Germany was in retreat, and the Soviets had better aircraft (and a lot of them!).
The Luftwaffe certainly lost air superiority then.
 
Guest

RE: Wwii Planes

Sat Jun 15, 2002 11:07 pm

The best USAAF fighter plane of WW2 was the Rolls Royce Merlin powered P-51D that helped provide effective escort for our B-17s & B-24s over Germany and our B-29s over Japan. Best US Navy fighter was the Grumman F6F Hellcat that was superior to the Mitsubishi Zero.
 
Thumper
Posts: 520
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2001 2:12 am

RE: Wwii Planes

Sun Jun 16, 2002 12:48 am

Although it didn't get there till the end I still think the F8F Bearcat was superior to the Hellcat or Mustang! Not talking about kills just ability!
 
usafjr
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 7:53 pm

RE: Wwii Planes

Sun Jun 16, 2002 4:40 pm

I dont know about that one... the P-51b was pretty darn good.
 
Guest

RE: Wwii Planes

Tue Jun 18, 2002 9:33 am

If the F8F Bearcat was superior it did not stay in service long enough to serve in the Korean War like the P-51 Mustang and F4U Corsair!
 
zionstrat
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 3:26 am

RE: Wwii Planes

Wed Jun 19, 2002 12:55 am

The bearcat example shows how fast these conversations get out of hand because it is so easy to compare apples to oranges.

The Bearcat was a purpose designed interceptor based on the same power plant as the F6F, but with a much smaller and lighter airframe. In other words, it was fast and climbed like a banshee, and if it had made it into production earlier would have been an excellent kamikaze interceptor.

So yes it was fast, but was designed for a role that was almost obsolete from day 1 as jets had all the advantages for this scenario.
 
usafjr
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 7:53 pm

RE: Wwii Planes

Sun Jun 23, 2002 12:10 pm

What would you say is the fastest WWII plane? Smile
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Wwii Planes

Sun Jun 23, 2002 4:41 pm

Operational one??

The Messeschmitt ME-163 Komet.

Rocket powered.

Not quite sure if it was actually operational or not.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Wwii Planes

Sun Jun 23, 2002 8:19 pm

The 163 was operational in numbers. They weren't all that effective though. The design basically limited them to one pass at a single bomber per flight (or 2 passes when they got their rocketpacks mounted).
Their speed advantage was also a disadvantage, they were difficult to get into position for a good shot (almost had to be from directly behind, where the tailgunner could shoot at them).

Possibly the Me-262 was faster (less acelleration but higher topspeed). It has been claimed more than once that the Me-262 was capable of supersonic speed in a dive (causing serious structural damage, but the aircraft could be landed normally afterwards by a skilled pilot).

About the Bearcat, I don't think it entered operational service before the end of the war. It WAS used in Korea and quite successfull there until the appearance in strength of the MiG-15 (the only prop to be effective against that was the Sea Fury).
I wish I were flying
 
Guest

RE: Wwii Planes

Mon Jun 24, 2002 12:57 am

The F8F Bearcat DID NOT see action in the Korean War! It was it's jet powered brother the F9F Panther that was successfully used in that conflict. The F4U Corsair was used by the US Navy & Marine Corps for air to ground missions and did on one occasion manage to shoot down a MIG 15.
 
GDB
Posts: 12678
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Wwii Planes

Mon Jun 24, 2002 2:38 am

If you discount the rocket powered Me-163, I suspect it has to be the Me-262;

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Photo © Dean Alexander


Followed by the Gloster Meteor, I don't think the Meteor got to engage enemy aircraft in WW2, but it was used against V-1 Flying Bombs;

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Photo © Glenn Alderton

 
usafjr
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 7:53 pm

RE: Wwii Planes

Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:51 am

>>The Messeschmitt ME-163 Komet. Rocket powered.

well I meant prop planes.

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