AC340
Topic Author
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2001 4:32 pm

Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:36 pm

...for their aging CF18 aircraft? These are the first generation 'A' model, if I am not mistaken, which arent' equiped for complex message encrytion or the use of laser guided bombs. My question is, will Canada order a replace for these aircraft in the near future, say the next 5-10 years? Anyone with any insight?
 
Lt-AWACS
Posts: 2120
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2002 2:40 am

RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:52 pm

well I was just up at Cold Lake for Maple Flag and controlled and spoke with many of hte CF-18 guys (and I fly with Canadians here as well) most of them said the replacement is not coming anytime soon- but they are hoping for the Joint Strike Fighter.

They might try to buy some J-TIDS kits for the aircraft now and maybe up grade some radar. Other than that they told me status quo for now. The Newer Hawk trainers are coming into service now. While the T-33s (T-133s Stars) just retired and that part of training has been contracted out.

I will see if I can get anymore info and post it.

Ciao and Hook 'em Horns,
Lt-AWACS
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
GDB
Posts: 12682
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Wed Jun 19, 2002 12:52 am

I think some limited upgrades have been carried out on CF-18's, though not to the extend that the Australians have done and are doing to their aircraft.
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Wed Jun 19, 2002 1:29 am

I had a pretty in depth conversation with a CF-18 pilot about this once. The summary of it was that he (and most of his coworkers), although not positive, believed the CF-18 will be the last fighter aircraft the Canadian military ever purchases.
 
VonRichtofen
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Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 3:10 am

RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Thu Jun 20, 2002 9:34 am

Joint Strike Fighter
 
AC340
Topic Author
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2001 4:32 pm

RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Thu Jun 20, 2002 3:48 pm

Thanks for the insight everyone.
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Thu Jun 20, 2002 4:37 pm

You mean the Canadian AF thinks the politicos will go ahead with the dismantling of the military?
I've seen that coming for a while now, but if the troops themselves are openly saying so it must be serious.
Another nation falling for the 'there is no enemy so we need no defense' way of thinking which costed Europe so dearly in 1940.
I wish I were flying
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Sat Jun 22, 2002 8:29 am

One of the things he mentioned that I remember cleary was stating that they had the US to do their dogfighting for them (or something along those lines). Don't know if he was joking or serious though...
 
j-bird
Posts: 106
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:47 am

RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:34 am

Joint Strike Fighter? I think you must be dreaming... the way Canada funds the military, we would be able to buy a total of 8-10, and that spread over 5 years!

I agree with the poster who said that the CF-18 is probably the last fighter aircraft the CAF will ever operate. Have also heard the same comment from people who are in.

Sad but true. Canadian politicos just have never learned that it's a "pay to play" world, and without a meaningful contribution to shared security, the Canadian voice will continue to get smaller and smaller. Looking at it the other way though, defence has never been a priority to the Canadian people and as such, the loss of political/economic influence that comes with having a seat at the decision-making table is what we all deserve. Again, sad but true.

 
VonRichtofen
Posts: 4270
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 3:10 am

RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Fri Jun 28, 2002 7:44 am

I think it depends on if the Liberals stay in power. They'd rather spend money on shitty paintings or pay 3 times for the same thing to help their little french buddies.
 
TomH
Posts: 950
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:13 am

RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:14 am

Isn't this situation the reason armed trainers are becoming popular in so many countries?
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:29 am

RCAF CF-18's are fully capable of dropping and guiding LGB's, which they succesfuly performed in Kosovo, for example.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
briboy
Posts: 266
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2001 1:47 am

RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:26 am

Canada has signed on to an extent with the JSF project.

From http://www.jast.mil, in the Program / International section:

"Negotiations with Canada were completed in May 1997. MOU was signed in December 1997. Canadians entered the program as Informed Partners [1] in January 1998."

[1] Informed Partner -- Allowed access to JSF project information in order to better understand and evaluate the utility of the JSF family of aircraft for their use. Unable to influence requirements.
next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
 
L-188
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Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:46 pm

If Canada is made a partner the following will happen.

They will contribute a large sum of tax payer money to help develop the aircraft. In return a portion of the work may be farmed out to build Canadian variants of the aircraft.

The parliament will start screaming that it is taking too much money away from their traumatized health care system and will force the PM to cancel it.

Because of the cancellation of their participation there will be no Canadian built versions and therefore no jobs will come from it, Massive layoffs result in more money going out for unemployment and other aid.

Meanwhile the heavily utilized CF-18 fleet will be getting older and older and less and less reliable.

After several years and deaths because of that fact, the government will eventually purchase a small number of foreign built JSF aircraft. This will be in spite of trying to rig the bidding process so that the aircraft that they cancelled will not win and put a large amount of egg on the faces of the politicians who canceled it in the first place.

The small purchase will cost much more then it would have been if they had stuck with the original plan and there will be no work brought to Canadian aviation workers for building Canadian variants.

off course this is just a fairy tale and never could happen in real life

*Cough!*EH-101*Cough!*EH-101*Cough!*

Excuse me, Don't know what got into me there  Innocent
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Sat Jun 29, 2002 12:58 pm

L-188 took the words right out of my mouth.
 
TomH
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Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:13 am

RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Thu Jul 04, 2002 7:42 am

Or, recall the CF-101 non-program, which essentially saw the Canadians getting overly-mature ex-USAF fighters as a result of a scenario somewhat like that described by L-188. Consider that if there is a quantity USN/USMC purchase of F-18Es, then many tired, old F-18As will become available for the CAF to use as attrition replacements for their original issue Hornets.

This way we free up some acreage at Davis-Monthan and keep the CAF stick-shakers (pilots) in the air a decade longer. Why its a win-win plan for everybody. Except the guy in the cockpit.
 
Arrow
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Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Thu Jul 04, 2002 11:25 am

My father was one of the systems engineers on the Avro Arrow. If he were still alive, he'd have a good laugh at all the failed attempts, since 1959, to give the RCAF the kind of fighter it needs to carry out its mission, starting with the CF-101. Even the CF-18, as good as it is, couldn't perform the way the Arrow 1 was capable of performing.

L-188 painted a very sad, but very true picture of the last 40 years of military procurement in this country. It goes well beyond the Air Force and impacts both the army and the navy. I'm always amazed that young Canadians are still prepared to put their lives on the line in antiquated and in some cases crumbling equipment, while the politicians who send them off to war blow money on new Challengers they don't need.

But I guess we keep electing them, so we get what we deserve.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
TomH
Posts: 950
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:13 am

Arrow

Fri Jul 05, 2002 9:36 am

The Mig-31 is said to be one of the hottest jets around. I can't help but notice there are more than a few similarities between its predecessor, the Mig-25, and the CF-105 Arrow. But then, form fits function.

The zenith of Canadian Aerospace efforts was 25 March 1958, when the Arrow lifted off at Malton for the first time. It was a long, long, way from being an operational fighter, but what a beautiful ship. It had the greatest potential of any design of its day.
 
maiznblu_757
Posts: 4952
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:05 pm

RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Fri Jul 05, 2002 12:07 pm

Pretty soon they should be able to get some of our "OLD"(?) C/D version.
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Fri Jul 05, 2002 1:35 pm

I have a large, framed original picture of the Arrow's first flight hanging on my office wall. The plane is about to land, with speed brakes extended. As a child, I watched it fly many times.

Amazing how we destroy our own accomplishments.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
AC183
Posts: 1496
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Is Canada Considering A Replacement...

Sun Jul 07, 2002 8:42 am

Unfortunately L-188's thoughts also came to my mind...

...and of course also the Arrow. Sure, the Arrow was big, ambitious, and expensive. But getting it to the verge of production and cancelling - and then messing around with CF101's, CF5's, CF104's, stretching CF100 ops - that was more expensive than it would have been to just build the CF105. The moral here - have a plan and stick with it.

...whether those messes happen (again) is anyones guess. I personally think we'll end up buying replacements eventually. But I think it would only be a token handful, and would be years (maybe decades) away. Bottom line is that replacing the Herks is a higher priority in the military right now (and probably should be), and even that doesn't appear likely to happen until around 2008-2012. So don't expect the government to be looking for fighters until at least 2015, maybe 2025.

IMO the way partisan politics turns out is less than ideal. Nobody is interested in making good decisions, just in opposing and attacking any decisions that are made. I have to say I'm irritated by the way the Victoria class (nee Upholder) subs are being grilled out by parliament and the media. There's no consideration of whether it's the right choice, or needed, it's just like "oh, a little problem, lookey here it must be a scandal or lets make it a scandal." Sure, fine, we should be informed of the problems, but I don't think there's anything of a fair analysis of what constitutes a problem, just stirring up a mess for political appearances.

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