Mr Spaceman
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Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Fri Sep 06, 2002 3:01 am

Hi guys.

I have a question to ask which might seem to have an obvious answer, however, I'm not sure...so here it is:

Are the Switzerland Air Force F-5 Tigers in the photo below members of a military aerobatic team?

The reason I'm asking is because even thought I'm about 95% sure that they are a team (because of their tight formation and colour scheme), I've never seen F-5's used for an aerobatic team before, and I didn't know Switzerland had a team.

If the answer is YES. How long have they been around? (the F-5 sure isn't new!). Also, what are they called and have they ever demonstrated in North America?


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Photo © Lassi Tolvanen



These are the military aerobatic teams that I've seen fly here in Toronto.

The Canadian "Snow Birds".
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Photo © André Kröcher



The USA Navy "Blue Angels".
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Photo © Jonathan Derden



The USA Air Force "Thunder Birds"
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Photo © Sergio Gava



The RAF "Red Arrows"
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Photo © Glenn Alderton



Thanks,

Chris  Smile
"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
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derekf
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Fri Sep 06, 2002 3:29 am

Chris

They are an aerobatic team called the Patrouille Suisse. They've flown the
F-5E for a few years now. They used to fly the Hawker Hunter. Wonderful!! and a now a quick photo plug!


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Photo © Derek Ferguson



The Turkish Air Force team called the Turkish Stars also fly F-5s. Of course the Thunderbirds used to fly a close relative, the T-38.

Regards

DerekF
Whatever.......
 
Mr Spaceman
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Fri Sep 06, 2002 4:01 am

Hello DerekF.

Thank You, very much for your answer.

Wow, I've never heard of the Patrouille Suisse or the Turkish Stars. Now I'm aware of them.

I guess it's safe to say that neither of these teams have been over here to visit Canada or the USA.

Yes Sir, I remember when the USAF Thunderbirds used to fly the T-38 Talon. Unfortunately I also remember when 4 of them flew straight into the ground while coming out of a loop over a desert in the USA somewhere. They were practicing, and for some reason the lead pilot flew into the ground and of course the other three T-38's followed. I have a newspaper clipping about that terrible accident somewhere. It shows an aerial view of 4 burned streaks in the sand. Very sad!


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Photo © Tom Hildreth



Chris  Smile
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FredT
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Fri Sep 06, 2002 4:17 am

Saw the Patrouille Suisse last summer, very impressive! Especially loved the grand finale when they split flying towards the audience while dropping flares. Wow!

Cheers,
Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
Spectre
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Fri Sep 06, 2002 6:18 am

Yes the Swiss have a great team...so get along and see them if you get the chance. My favourites at the moment though are the Italian Frecce Tricolori flying Aermacchi MB339A, though their displat this year is tame compared to the last few years

Regards
Dave
 
jwenting
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Fri Sep 06, 2002 3:30 pm

Nice detail: the F-5s of the Turkish Stars are former Royal Netherlands Air Force NF-5As.

Patrouille de Suisse is good, but indeed not quite on a par with the Red Arrows or Frecce Tricolore (who are the world leaders in aerobatic display).
No wonder as they don't have as much time for training.

Just like teams from the Americas rarely visit Europe, so do European teams not travel to the Americas very much.
It's probably mainly a matter of logistics and cost. It's just too expensive to fly all those aircraft, people and equipment across the ocean for a few days.
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L-188
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Fri Sep 06, 2002 5:04 pm

Mr Spaceman...

Was that the crash where they latter found a wrench in the lead aircraft that had apparently jammed the controls during the practice aerobatics.

Since all of the wingman are trained to ignore their surroundings and focus on maintaining their position with respect to the leader, they just followed him in when his controls jammed.
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broke
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Fri Sep 06, 2002 9:21 pm

Mr Spaceman,

There is an aviation photogragher in Europe named Peter Steehouer. He takes pictures at shows in Europe and the U.S. and he has a great web site.

http://www.steehouer.com

In there are some great shots taken at shows at a Swiss AF gunnery range high in the Alps with pictures of the Patrouille Suisse.

In the "Oh by the way" department, the Patrouille d'France (Alphajets) will be performing at the Dayton Airshow as part of the 100th anniversary of flight celebration in 2003. That airshow is held the 3rd weekend in July.
 
CV990
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Sat Sep 07, 2002 12:30 am


Hi!

I think some of you forgot our mediterranean aerobatic teams that are also great. We have from Italy the "Frecce Tricolori" with their MB339 and they're very, very good, we have "Esquadrilla Aguilla" from Ejercito Del Aire with their C101 Aviojets and the now deactivated "Asas de Portugal" from Portugal and their unique Cessna T-37C Tweet.
Regards
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jwenting
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Sat Sep 07, 2002 3:01 am

CV990, the Frecce were already mentioned. The Turkish Stars are also from the Mediterranean region.
I've seen Patrouille Aguilla, and they are indeed quite good (but not (yet) on a par with the Frecce and Arrows).
My parents have a house near one of their exercise areas, and when I'm there I can sometimes see them in the wild.
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Mr Spaceman
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Sat Sep 07, 2002 5:29 am

Hi guys.

Thanks for the replies. Your information was great. I'm very happy I've learned about all these Jet Aerobatic Teams over in Europe.

>L-188, regarding the crash of the four USAF Thunderbirds, I believe the newspaper article I have is from the day after the accident, so I doubt their will be any mention of a wrench in the lead jet, however, I'll check for sure when I get home later and will let you know.

>Broke, Thanks for that link and the info about the Dayton Airshow (maybe I'll go, it's not to far from me). Unfortunately, Peter Steehouer's website appears to be down at the moment, so here's some of A.Net's photos of the aerobatic teams you guys told me about....followed by a few questions.

The Frecce Tricolori.
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Photo © Philippe noret



A retired Fiat model.
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Photo © Matthias Heisig



The Esquadrilla Aguillas.
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Photo © Bernard CHARLES



The Turkish Stars.
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Photo © MARCO MITTINI



The Asas de Portugal.
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Photo © José Jorge



The Patrouille de France.
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Photo © Vincent Gomez


(note the different V-tail jet)


Four questions:

1). What's the name of the Belgium Air Force's Aerobatic Team in the photo's below?


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Photo © Rene Kurzenberg



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Photo © Gerhard Plomitzer



2). Was it the Italian Frecce Tricolori team that crashed in Germany with massive fatalities?

3). Can any of the jet aircraft used in the teams shown above do Mach 1?

4). Are / were there any aerobatic teams in Asia or the former Soviet Union?

Thanks,

Chris  Smile





"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
Mr Spaceman
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Sat Sep 07, 2002 6:34 am

Hi guys.

I just wanted to amend my last post regarding question #3 about whether or not any of these team's jets can fly at supersonic speeds. Well I forgot that the Turkish Stars were flying the Northrop F-5, which I'm aware can fly above mach 1.

Chris  Smile
"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
LY744
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Sat Sep 07, 2002 6:53 am

2) Yes.

3) Don't think so, with possible exception of that Fiat.

4) Plenty. The Russian AF alone has about 3 of them (MiG-29, Su-27, L-39).

LY744.
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Mr Spaceman
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Sun Sep 08, 2002 12:25 pm

Hi guys.

>L-188, I found that newspaper article about the 4 USAF Thunderbirds that crashed. The story is in The Toronto Star (one of Toronto's 4 main newspapers), which is dated Tuesday January 19, 1982. The accident occured the day before on the 18th, so there is no mention of a wrench that jammed the lead jet.

Here are some facts from the article, (unfortunately I don't have a scanner).

The team had just started practicing for the 1982 season when the 4 jets crashed in a desert near Indian Springs, Nevada. Their airspeed was over 400 mph when they hit the ground after completing a manoeuvre known as a line-abreast loop. This manoeuvre is also called a backward loop in the article. (what is a backward loop?).

Quote: "We don't know whether it was a mid-air collision or a case of follow the leader into the ground" said Air Force Sgt. Jack Conner, spokesman at Nellis Air Base, the team's home base.

An aerial photo in the article of 4 charred streaks on the ground shows how the jets crashed side by side, one after the other, while flying in formation.

There's a photo in the article of the 4 Thunderbird pilots who died. Their names are Capt. Mark Melancon, Capt. Joseph Peterson, Maj. Norman Lowry and Capt. Willie Mays.

> For some reason I couldn't find a Thunderbirds website, which might have some final info on the cause of the crash. I found the Blue Angel's website with no problem. Now that I'm curious...I'm going to do some more searching at a public library, to find out what caused the accident.

>LY744, I always thought the F-5 Tiger could do Mach 1.2+.

>Does anyone know the name of the Belgium aerobatic team, or what type of V-tail jet is flying with the Patrouille de France in the in the photos above?

Thanks,

Chris  Smile

"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
Mr Spaceman
Topic Author
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Sun Sep 08, 2002 12:31 pm

Hi guys.

>L-188, I found that newspaper article about the 4 USAF Thunderbirds that crashed. The story is in The Toronto Star (one of Toronto's 4 main newspapers), which is dated Tuesday January 19, 1982. The accident occured the day before on the 18th, so there is no mention of a wrench that jammed the lead jet.

Here are some facts from the article, (unfortunately I don't have a scanner).

The team had just started practicing for the 1982 season when the 4 jets crashed in a desert near Indian Springs, Nevada. Their airspeed was over 400 mph when they hit the ground after completing a manoeuvre known as a line-abreast loop. This manoeuvre is also called a backward loop in the article. (what is a backward loop?).

Quote: "We don't know whether it was a mid-air collision or a case of follow the leader into the ground" said Air Force Sgt. Jack Conner, spokesman at Nellis Air Base, the team's home base.

An aerial photo in the article of 4 charred streaks on the ground shows how the jets crashed side by side, one after the other, while flying in formation.

There's a photo in the article of the 4 Thunderbird pilots who died. Their names are Capt. Mark Melancon, Capt. Joseph Peterson, Maj. Norman Lowry and Capt. Willie Mays.

> For some reason I couldn't find a Thunderbirds website, which might have some final info on the cause of the crash. I found the Blue Angel's website with no problem. Now that I'm curious...I'm going to do some more searching at a public library, to find out what caused the accident.

>LY744, I always thought the F-5 Tiger could do Mach 1.2+.

>Does anyone know the name of the Belgium aerobatic team, or what type of V-tail jet is flying with the Patrouille de France in the photos above?

Thanks,

Chris  Smile

"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
L-188
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Sun Sep 08, 2002 6:10 pm

So far the only comments I have found on that crash was this little blurb from a CNN article a couple of years back....

We waited near the spot where, in 1982, the Thunderbirds diamond formation augured into the desert floor as they came out of a loop. Apparently, there was a problem with the actuator in the control stick of the leader's T-38. And since his wingmen focus intently (and entirely) on the leader's wing -- and their 18-inch proximity to it -- they all flew into the ground in perfect unison. After that, the Air Force decided the team should fly the more advanced, more robust F-16.

Like I said earlier the story I head was that wrench had been left in the aircraft but that little blurb doesn't really say that.

I'll keep looking, anybody else have any insight?
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LY744
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Sun Sep 08, 2002 10:49 pm

"LY744, I always thought the F-5 Tiger could do Mach 1.2+"

Sorry for the confusion I caused, Mr Spaceman, I too believe that the F-5 is supersonic, I just ignored it since you stated that it is capable of exceeding Mach1.  Smile

As for the French V-tail, it is an Aйrospatiale Fouga CM-170 Magister, the first jet-powered trainer in the world, debuting in 1952. It has two engines and can also be used for basic ground attack and close support. Exported to many countries. The CM-175 was a modified version for aircraft carrier operations, used by the French Navy. The Israelis still use a locally upgraded version of the a/c ("Tzukit") in their AF's aerobatic display team, as well as their flight academy as a trainer (not for long).

LY744
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LY744
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Sun Sep 08, 2002 11:20 pm

Could the Belgian Air Force Aerobatic team still be called "The Red Devils" ("Diable Rouge"), as in the days when they used to fly the Fouga? Their livery would seem to suggest so.  Smile

LY744.
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Rene
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Mon Sep 09, 2002 2:11 am

@Spaceman: The Belgian Alphajets are not part of a display team. The just wear special colour schemes and were used for solo displays. Belgium has no display team.
 
Mr Spaceman
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 5:12 am

Hi guys.

>LY744, Thanks for letting me know that the V-tail jet is a French Magister. I've seen them before but couldn't remember their name.

>Rene, regarding a Belgium aerobatic team, I thought the giant #7 on the tail of the one Alpha Jet probably meant it was jet #7 out of 9 jets in a team.

Perhaps there used to be a Belgium team called "The Red Devils" (Diable Rouge), as mentioned by LY744, but it doesn't exist anymore.

Take Care,

Chris  Smile

"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
broke
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 9:14 pm

Ooops!!

http://www.steehouwer.com

This should work better.
 
jwenting
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Tue Sep 10, 2002 10:50 pm

The Belgian Air Force used to have a display team. It was called Rode Duivels (Red Devils). They were disbanded and their aircraft returned to regular duty. Some are kept in their original scheme (at least until the next depot level maintenance).

The Turkish F-5s are distinctly not supersonic. The Dutch NF-5A (which are now in Turkish service) does not have the more powerfull engines of the F-5E model.
The F-5E can go supersonic but only in a dive I believe. The only truely supersonic aircraft in the series is the T-38 Talon trainer.

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KAUSpilot
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Wed Sep 11, 2002 2:43 pm

Still remember seeing the thunderbirds at the closing of bergstrom afb. Very nice.
 
Rene
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Thu Sep 12, 2002 12:46 am

But the Red Devils never used the Alphajet. They used the Fouga Magister and their last display took place in 1996. One of the Magisters still wears the colour scheme from that year.
A picture you can find here: www.flying-display.de/2002/Airshow_Koksijde/FougaMagister-02/fougamagister-02.html
 
wing
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Thu Sep 12, 2002 6:27 am

Jwenting,
Turkish Stars flies with NF-5 as you also mentioned,but All models of F-5 can go supersonic,including the NF5's of Turkish Stars.I am not sure about the E model but the NF model has more thrust capabilty than F5A and B models. And I am vey much sure that NF5's can go supersonic,I guess around mach 1,6.
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Marcus
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Fri Sep 20, 2002 3:14 am

There is a Magister in full "Patruille de France" colors at Palomar airport in Carlsbad CA north of San Diego...........I think THE most interesting site there.
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jwenting
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Fri Sep 20, 2002 4:40 am

In Dutch service they were not classed as supersonic, Wing.
They also don't have afterburners. If they can go supersonic (which the E model does have), it's only in a dive and prohibited during peacetime.
The NF series is a stripped-down version of the regular A (cheapskate politicians back then over here, even worse than the current crop). The engines are likely less powerfull versions of a more powerfull engine... The avionics are barebones to say the least. etc. etc.
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wing
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Sat Sep 21, 2002 4:16 am

I don't know about Dutch service but anything flies over mach 1.0 is classed supersonic here.I personally saw them with afterburners during take off .I also checked that with one of my first officer collegues who flew F5 in the Air Force,NF-5s of TAF are all capable of flying Mach 1,6.I don't know if it is logical modify to downgrade your fighters during peace time but its Dutch politics I have nothing to say about it
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flightsimfreak
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 10:47 am

I don't think the Magister has 2 engines... I flew in one, and I only heard one start up... I will upload the pictures when I get them developed.
 
LY744
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Wed Oct 02, 2002 8:00 pm

Well, it does (have two engines).

LY744.
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Beefmoney
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RE: Are These F-5's On An Aerobatic Team?

Fri Oct 04, 2002 11:54 am

The magister has 2 engines, albeit 2 very small engines. I think they are the same type engines used in the Cessna jet trainer in use with the USAF (cant think of what it is called).

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