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Poland Will Buy F-16

Fri Dec 27, 2002 9:13 pm

Polish defense minister Jerzy Szmajdzi??ski announced today that Poland will buy 48 F-16 fighters.
The competition on tender was Gripen and Mirage 2000.
First 16 airplanes will arrive in 2006.
Minister said that F-16 offer was optimal for national security and industry (offset deals).


Personally I wanted to see Gripen in Polish colours but this is only my personal preference
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L-188
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Fri Dec 27, 2002 10:41 pm

Are these new builds or refurbs out of Davis-Monthan?
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Fri Dec 27, 2002 11:05 pm

On the polish news portal C/D block airplanes are mentioned.
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petertenthije
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Fri Dec 27, 2002 11:12 pm

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=580&e=2&cid=580&u=/nm/20021227/bs_nm/arms_poland_lockheed_dc


SUMMARY OF ARTICLE

Poland will buy 48 block 52 F-16C/D powered by P&W F100-229. The first plane should enter service in 2006.

"The F-16 comes equipped with Northrop Grumman Corp's APG-68(V)9 radar and ALQ-211(V)4 electronic warfare suite. Its weapons systems comprise the AIM-9X air-to-air missile, the AIM-120C AMRAAM missile, as well as Joint Stand-Off Weapon and Joint Direct Attack Munition Bombs."
"The plane is also fitted with extra streamlined fuel tanks to boost its range and the United States Air Force will provide training for Polish pilots and maintenance crews."

Lockheed got backed by a $3.8 billion US government financing package. Offsets are proposed to be $9.8 billion. Poland's economy ministry sets the offset agreement at around $6 billion.



Sound like these will be new build. No news yet on the websites of Boeing, Lockheed Martin or the Polish ministry of Defence.
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L-188
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Fri Dec 27, 2002 11:18 pm

It definatly sounds like new builds...

No doubt they will have a long life.

Are the Poles still planning on picking up those German Mig-29's?
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jwenting
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Sat Dec 28, 2002 12:28 am

and to think that a Dutch paper said they are to replace 'outdated' MiG-29s...
The F-16 is just AS outdated as current production MiG-29s  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Choosing F-16s is a logical decision for Poland. It streamlines their airforce with those of other European NATO members (personally I don't think the European F-16 operators will purchase a replacement aircraft in the next 10-20 years unless a major shooting war starts that makes it evident that their current A-models are no match for a well equipped foe).
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keesje
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Sat Dec 28, 2002 2:44 am

There was no fair competition. US governement pushed it.

http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/021227/arms_poland_lockheed_2.html

So much for the US promoted free market ideology ..... It is not even denied, everybody seems proud of this !!


"It was absolutely a very strong team effort," Air Force Lt. Gen. Tome Walters, who oversees U.S. arms sales to other nations, told Reuters in a telephone interview.

Industry officials called the U.S. government engagement unprecedented and said Walters played a key role in coordinating U.S. actions on the Poland fighter bid.



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Boeing4ever
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Sat Dec 28, 2002 12:32 pm

Here's another article...

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/12-27-2002/0001863734&EDATE=

This is great for Poland. The aircraft will definitely be new build.

Keesje, the US and Poland are allies. I doubt if there was much pressure. And it all comes down to this, which company is LEAST likely to screw over the Polish. Sorry pal, but history shows that Poland can't really rely on the French or Swedish. Lockheed provided the best options, and these planes may be built under license in Poland, therefore helping their economy. Saab and Dassault simply couldn't provide this. How do I know? I get Polish television via satellite and heard the news myself as well as discussions that followed.

I guess Dassault could try to sue Poland!  Smile hahahahahahahahaha!

Or is it that you are jealous that Poland's F-16s will be more advanced and powerful than yours?

L-188, yes, Poland will take the German MiG-29s and along with their own, they will operate side by side with the F-16s. That's quite interesting. Decades ago, those two types were developed to destroy each other. Now they will fly together under that same glorious checkerboard emblem.

LONG LIVE POLAND!

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Boeing4ever
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Sat Dec 28, 2002 2:06 pm

Here are some quotes that Keesje conveniently decided to leave out from that article he posted:

But he took issue with European complaints that Poland based its decision on politics, and said it was made on the basis of carefully considered military and economic factors.

"My hat's off to Poland for running perhaps the first really world-class tender process in eastern Europe for a major defense acquisition," Walters said. "Poland ran a very open and honest and transparent tender process."

Jean Wessener, head of the Brussels-based European Defence Industries Group, said the decision by Poland, a NATO member since 1999, was "very bad news" for the European defense firms his group represents. He said high industry costs and failure to harmonize requirements had cost Lockheed's French and Anglo-Swedish rivals the deal.


Nice try Keesje. But the Europeans also tried the same government moves the US did. Poland invited them all over to demonstrate those aircraft and to get the best possible deal for themselves. My hat's off to Poland for playing its cards right and squeezing the best deal.

The Mirage 2000 and Gripen were "shot down" (pardon the pun) fair and square. And there are plenty of pictures of French AF Mirage 2000s and Swedish AF Gripens in Poland on this very websites's database. These in addition to US and Dutch F-16s. All of them came over for an airshow where they could show off their capabilities.

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jwenting
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Sat Dec 28, 2002 7:45 pm

The Polish are supposedly excellent fighters. They have to be, seeing that they've always been severely outnumbered by their historical enemies the Germans and the Russians (a.k.a the Krauts and the Russkies to use your terminology).
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L-188
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Sat Dec 28, 2002 8:34 pm

Air Vice Marshall Dowding didn't have a problem sending in his Polish Squadrons after their training wings showed what they could do....During the war 303(Polish) shot down 125 Luftwaffe Aircraft, Scored 14 probables only loosing nine of their own and twenty airplanes.

They where the highest scoring squadron of Fighter Command.




The pilots of those F-16's are going to be the legacy of these fellows
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Cyril B
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Sun Dec 29, 2002 7:11 am

"Sorry pal, but history shows that Poland can't really rely on the French"

Did the US entered WWII when Hitler invaded Poland in 1939? No.
France did.
 
keesje
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Sun Dec 29, 2002 7:48 am

Or is it that you are jealous that Poland's F-16s will be more advanced and powerful than yours?

Sorry, I don't have F16's. The Airforce in the Netherlands has been retiring dozens of F16's for the last 10 yrs. (I saw them first in the seventy's as a little kid)

The Polish are supposedly excellent fighters. They have to be, seeing that they've always been severely outnumbered by their historical enemies the Germans and the Russians

I doubt these fighter pilots are still in active duty.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Cyril, you're right. France has been a historical allie of Poland at the start of WO2 and long before that.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
L-188
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Sun Dec 29, 2002 1:07 pm

Keesje.....Ever hear of this quote


"The quality of the crate matters little. Success depends on the man sitting in it."....Manfred von Richthofen
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Boeing4ever
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Sun Dec 29, 2002 1:24 pm

Did the US entered WWII when Hitler invaded Poland in 1939? No.
France did.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Read the book, The Forgotten Few. It's about Polish fighter pilots in WW2. You should specifically read the part when the pilots made it to France. All sorts of happy descriptions. Mostly from the French accusing the Polish of starting the war, to the French not taking the threat seriously despite many warnings from Polish High Command-in-exile.

Sorry, I don't have F16's. The Airforce in the Netherlands has been retiring dozens of F16's for the last 10 yrs. (I saw them first in the seventy's as a little kid)

I obviously meant your Airforce's F-16s. And Netherlands flies the F-16As. Poland F-16C/Ds will be new build and far more capable. You can't compare them. BTW...the first Mirage jets were flying around the 50s-60s.

I doubt these fighter pilots are still in active duty.

Cyril, you're right. France has been a historical allie of Poland at the start of WO2 and long before that.


Polish pilots are some of the best in the world. The pilots of today, even in outdated MiG-21s, could fly circles around the "Flying Dutchmen".  Smile

As for France, like I said, read accounts of those pilots in The Forgotten Few.

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petertenthije
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Sun Dec 29, 2002 10:47 pm

Flying circles around Dutch F-16's that have ALL had a MLU update! The name may say A, but the planes have progressed quite a bit since. At the moment they are the most advanced F16s around (or so I have been told) but the Polish ones will probably be more advanced.
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Alessandro
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Mon Dec 30, 2002 2:34 am

I see the logic, Poland is a Nato member and Nato is based on US equipement,
Gripen and the Dassault would be more intresting if Poland was a member of
EU but aren´t (yet!). I don´t see any war in this part of world coming, so
this was a way to say "thank you" to the US....
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wingman
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Mon Dec 30, 2002 3:24 am

Just like S. Korea, Poland maintains exceptionally strong political, economic and defense ties to the US, much more so than France or Sweden. And Boeing4ever is correct, France did absolutely nothing to assist Poland during the infamous blitzkrieg of 1939. Unhappily for them, they were next in line.

 
jwenting
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Mon Dec 30, 2002 6:57 am

Soon the Polish won't have to contest with Dutch F-16s anywhere. At the current rate of retirement and attrition, they'll all be gone before the first Polish F-16s are delivered.
For next year, another squadron is slated to be scrapped according to the current budget plans (which were never ratified yet because the government fell, but cutting defense is a very popular way to reduce the government budget so I'm confident the next cabinet will keep the reductions).

Dutch F-16AM models have the electronics of the F-16C block 50 with the airframe and engine of the F-16A block 10.
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keesje
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Mon Dec 30, 2002 9:33 am

Just like S. Korea, Poland maintains exceptionally strong political, economic and defense ties to the US

no.

Poland was in the Comecon and Warsaw pact until 10 yrs ago. Their biggest aim now is to join the EC, they've fought hard for that. I can't find the numbers but I think export/import to individual EC members is already larger then to the US ...

The party that really pumped billions into the Poland economy so far is the old enemy and now best friend, Germany (helped them into EC).
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Mon Dec 30, 2002 2:59 pm

Flying circles around Dutch F-16's that have ALL had a MLU update! The name may say A, but the planes have progressed quite a bit since. At the moment they are the most advanced F16s around (or so I have been told) but the Polish ones will probably be more advanced.

I direct you to L-188's quote: "The quality of the crate matters little. Success depends on the man sitting in it."....Manfred von Richthofen. Yeah, I'd say Polish skill would make the "Flying Dutchmen" a little scared  Smile .

no.

Poland was in the Comecon and Warsaw pact until 10 yrs ago. Their biggest aim now is to join the EC, they've fought hard for that. I can't find the numbers but I think export/import to individual EC members is already larger then to the US ...

The party that really pumped billions into the Poland economy so far is the old enemy and now best friend, Germany (helped them into EC).


errr, yes. The ties are strong. The Polish population withing the US makes it that way. And isn't it nice how the EC countries like to claim they are Poland's ally just like France did in 1939? But when Poland really needs help, where are they!?  Confused

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keesje
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:17 am

Success depends on the man sitting in it."....

true but there are some limits to this, e.g.


However I imagine dutch pilots flying the F16 for 18-20 yrs might beat them with 2 fingers in the nose (dutch way of saying easy), taking a phone call from the wife & eating a hotdog in then mean time  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Jooking, hope they'll fly save & effective and

maybe come here to practice ..
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Boeing4ever
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:06 pm

That's not a MiG-21 dude, but I imagine THIS will make the Dutch need to change their pants, afterall, they ain't leaving the Polish Air Force just cuz the Falcon is joining the coop...


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Piotr Biskupski



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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Thu Jan 02, 2003 4:23 pm

MIG-29 is old news. even the Chinese have a better fighter in the J-10
 
keesje
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:36 pm

I think the dutch have developed into a de-escalating / negotiating culture ...



28 March 1999, Washington Post - Bomb Effort Is Unifying for NATO (William Drozdiak and Dana Priest, Washington Post Foreign Service)
When a Dutch F-16 pilot shot down a Yugoslav MiG-29 plane in a dogfight on the first night of NATO's bombing campaign, it marked the first time that the Netherlands had become directly engaged in aerial combat since World War II.
But rather than find himself toasted as a national hero, the Dutch Top Gun was treated almost as a pariah in a country that cherishes a strong pacifist tradition. The Defense Ministry forbade the release of his name – which emerged anyway – and the Netherlands' air force chief banned any celebrations. The headlines in the Dutch press conveyed a sense of shock rather than triumph.

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
jwenting
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:27 pm

yes, we've become pathetic. Rather than fight our troops just stand there hoping their very presence will deter the enemy. When it doesn't, they turn tail and run.
Being betrayed by the French airforce doesn't help of course...

US pilots who practiced against the Dutch airforce had this to say about them: "excellent pilots, shame they have such crap aircraft". And that was about the F-16s...

The purchase process went as follows:
1) remove a part
2) fly the aircraft
3) repeat 1) and 2) until it fails to fly
4) put last removed part back in
5) buy the aircraft you end up with
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Boeing4ever
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Fri Jan 03, 2003 4:36 am

East German MiG-29s proved a match during exercises with F-16s. So that MiG can't exactly be considered tame. US Pilots doing exercises train as if they would be fighting Fulcrums from any threat Air Force that has them. The same is true for any other potential adversary aircraft. As for the Dutch, pilot, what a shame that he became a pariah.

As for Poland's F-16s, they will be the newest version with up-to-date electronics, P&W engines, and other capabilities not seen with the 20+ year old Dutch F-16s.

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EssentialPowr
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Sat Jan 04, 2003 2:28 am

Jwenting,

Pls reference your quote:

"US pilots who practiced against the Dutch airforce had this to say about them: "excellent pilots, shame they have such crap aircraft". And that was about the F-16s..."
 
Cyril B
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Tue Jan 07, 2003 5:54 am

Boeing4ever, just a precision:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Read the book, The Forgotten Few. It's about Polish fighter pilots in WW2. You should specifically read the part when the pilots made it to France. All sorts of happy descriptions. Mostly from the French accusing the Polish of starting the war, to the French not taking the threat seriously despite many warnings from Polish High Command-in-exile.

In 1939, France did not wanted to go at war. And it is very comprehensible.
Some frenchmen showed disrespect towards Poland, but is to help Poland that France and the United Kingdom entered the war.

In 1939, did the US cared about Poland? No, not at all.




 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:34 am

In 1939, France did not wanted to go at war. And it is very comprehensible.
Some frenchmen showed disrespect towards Poland, but is to help Poland that France and the United Kingdom entered the war.

In 1939, did the US cared about Poland? No, not at all.


Noone wanted or wants to go to war, but let's clear a few things up here. Did the US care about Poland? A substantial amount of Polish immigrants did. Albeit it didn't do much, but many voluteered to fight. Now, to help Poland...if France didn't want to go to war, why take the trouble of making a pledge? Seems to me that if they didn't want to fight or take on evacuated Polish military units, they shouldn't have pledged to fight anyway.

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LONG LIVE POLAND!
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Poland Will Buy F-16

Fri Jan 10, 2003 3:09 pm

(2nd request)

Jwenting,

Pls reference your quote:

"US pilots who practiced against the Dutch airforce had this to say about them: "excellent pilots, shame they have such crap aircraft". And that was about the F-16s..."

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