CX747
Topic Author
Posts: 5579
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Would F-4s Really Be Activated For WAR?

Wed Jan 08, 2003 11:28 am

In an earlier post, the massive amount of F-4s that are currenlty in storage at AMARC was discussed. Supposedly, in WAR time these airframes would/could be reactivated. My question is, what does a F-4 bring to the table? Wouldn't it make more sense to start mass producing present day jets?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
JohnM
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: Would F-4s Really Be Activated For WAR?

Wed Jan 08, 2003 11:56 am

My understanding is that they are working through the F-4 fleet and making drones and that sort of thing out of them. As far as the US is concerned, where would you find current/ qualified aviators and maintenance guys? There is nobody left in the USAF to fix them anymore, unless you tapped some guys who used to have them in the Guard/ Reserve. Any active duty AF guy who worked F-4s is now out, or E-7 or above. Also test equipment, tech data and that stuff has all gone down the tubes ( at least in the quanities needed to get the plane back in active service.) People I know who used to work them liked the airplane, but admit it is a very hard airplane to keep flying.
 
LMP737
Posts: 4853
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Would F-4s Really Be Activated For WAR?

Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:14 pm

By the time you identified the aircraft to be re-activated, started refurbishing, done the necessary testing the war would probably be over.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Hamfist
Posts: 606
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 9:40 am

RE: Would F-4s Really Be Activated For WAR?

Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:18 pm

Not a chance!!

The F-4 is, indeed, moving on to the much less glorious world of being an unmanned aerial target. In fact, F-4's have been used like this for several years now.

And, as JohnM mentioned, it would be next to impossible to gather together the neccessary personnel to make a squadron.

The F-4 had it's day and is now just a piece of history. I can't think of anything it would bring to the fight that today's jets can't accomplish.
 
saintsman
Posts: 2037
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 12:34 am

RE: Would F-4s Really Be Activated For WAR?

Wed Jan 08, 2003 4:52 pm

As a matter of interest, does anyone know how long it takes to build a modern day fighter aircraft? I imagine that the production lines are not geared up for mass production either.
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Would F-4s Really Be Activated For WAR?

Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:04 am

That is exactly the reason why aircraft are put in storage Saintsman.

The F-4 has indeed had its day in the sun, sadly it's soon to be gone. There may be a few reserve units left that fly the RF-4 or F-4G versions, but apart from that the type is no longer in use.
Its place in the boneyards for attrition replacements has been taken by the F-15A and F-16A, just like it took the place of the F-102 and F-101.
The examples still in storage will be converted to drones or scrapped for spares (either for those drones or for sale to countries that still use F-4s).
If a protracted war were to break out some might be converted into drones and packed with explosives to serve as makeshift cruise missiles but that would be an act of desperation more than a sound operational decision (remember that the Tomahawk and ALCM production lines are also closed and no new cruise missile is on the drawing board (let alone in production or testing) to take its place. During Desert Storm, the Navy and Air Force all but ran out of cruise missiles and had to convert nuclear tipped ones to conventional use leaving the nuclear deterrent force to wait for the Tomahawk production line to be reopened which took several months).
I wish I were flying
 
Lt-AWACS
Posts: 2120
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2002 2:40 am

RE: Would F-4s Really Be Activated For WAR?

Thu Jan 09, 2003 4:51 am

There are no F-4 or RF-4 squadrons anywhere (AF, Guard,Res) in the US, other than the drone units, mainly at Tyndall. I do know some pilots who still fly the F-4 as the drones sometimes are flown with pilots for various tests. They do not give F-4 slots out of UPT, all the F-4 folks are older. Most of the maint. is contracted.

And no they would not come out of AMARC. In fact there is already talk of a shortage of F-4s for drones as we are using them up faster than we thought originally. I even saw one crash while I was at Tyndall (unmanned flight)

Ciao and Hook 'em Horns,
Lt-AWACS
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Would F-4s Really Be Activated For WAR?

Thu Jan 09, 2003 2:06 pm

RE F4s: "...and packed with explosives to serve as makeshift cruise missiles but that would be an act of desperation more than a sound operational decision"


Good thing we had jwenting's solid judgement to recommend the QF4s NOT be converted into a "makeshift cruise missile", as that is certainly the next weapons system to be budgeted, designed, tested, qualified and deployed by the DOD...

Just kidding. Are these comments made by adults?
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Would F-4s Really Be Activated For WAR?

Fri Jan 10, 2003 4:04 am

Look back a few wars Essentialpower, and you'll see that the idea of converting obsolete fighters into cruise missiles is an old one.
The Germans did it in WW2 (with little success because they didn't have very reliable guidance systems and most targets had a lot of FLAK around them).
Iraq experimented with it a few years ago using L-29 trainers (supposedly to carry biochemical weapons over enemy troop concentrations).
The USSR had cruise missiles that looked a lot like their early jet fighters (and may have been designed based on the blueprints for those fighters) (not quite the same, but still).

Japan in WW2 of course went all the way and installed a human in the cockpit for the mission because they lacked the electronics to do it unmanned.
I wish I were flying
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Would F-4s Really Be Activated For WAR?

Fri Jan 10, 2003 2:58 pm

jwenting
It's a stupid comment, on top of the two comments I've asked you to prove already...on top of the F14 comments; which were so erroneous it was laughable.


An F4 as a cruise missile????

Spend millions to do what 2 JSOWs or a 2 JDAMs could do when dropped from an air platform; or what 2 Tomahawks could do from a submarine or surface ship. In terms of dollar cost per pound of munitions dropped, your idea is WWII thinking at best. It's too bad your knowledge of contemporary weapons systems is so poor!

The millions spent in converting an old F4 into a modern weapon with the range, accuracy and reliability required for a modern weapon in the US arsenal makes your statement laughable at best. Two GE J79s, rebuilt so the entire assembly doesn't fail prematurely in to non hostile territory (political efffects??), combined with the dollar cost for a pilot to fly it remotely is hardly a cost effective weapon, and that assumes the airframe was flyable in the first place. Tell the SEcDEf that F4 pilots need to be trained and paid in order to drop 6,000 lbs of munitions from a range of 1600 miles...and he'd say a JSOW will do what 4 F4s would do, more accurately, and more reliably, at 1/10 the cost.

You spout mass amounts of BS on this web site, but you are as clueless as anyone I've encountered to date.
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Would F-4s Really Be Activated For WAR?

Fri Jan 10, 2003 3:03 pm

And I'm still waiting for 2 references...
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Would F-4s Really Be Activated For WAR?

Fri Jan 10, 2003 3:29 pm

Actually Joe Jr. (Kennedy) got killed flying a B-24 that had been converted to a "cruise missile"

The war weary B-24 had been loaded up with explosives and after the pilot (Kennedy) had gotten it off the ground he was supposed to hand off control to a chase plane and bail out of the "missile".

Unfortunatly for him it didn't quite work out that way and his airplane detonated before he was able to get out. If memory serves he was going after a V-1 bunker, but don't hold me to that.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

RE: Would F-4s Really Be Activated For WAR?

Tue Jan 14, 2003 2:20 am

No way will the US military re-activate the F-4 Phantom! The aircraft is obsolete, it is a 1950s design that can't match today's high tech fighters in air to air combat like the F-16, F/A-18, MIG-29, SU-27, and F-22.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests