L-188
Topic Author
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:59 pm

And now there are only 29 left in service!

All of which are approaching their 40th birthdays.

Thank you Crietian, who cancelled the EH-101 in 1993 for how many Billion?

The Sea Kings needed replacement then and that was 10 years ago!!!

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1035778361944&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
VonRichtofen
Posts: 4262
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 3:10 am

RE: Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Sat Mar 01, 2003 2:16 pm

Why am I not surprised.....

In the budget recently John Manley announced they were going to increase military spending by $800 million a year. Though it it definitley good news, it's still not enough.

About replacing the Sea Kings,
I though that's what the Cormoran (sp?) was for?
Or is it too small?

Regards,
Kris
YYC
 
CX747
Posts: 5579
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

RE: Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Sat Mar 01, 2003 2:52 pm

What type of helicopters are the Canadians currently looking at?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Sat Mar 01, 2003 9:33 pm

The CH-149 Cormorant (EH-101) is replacing the CH-113's (dating back to the 50's) in the SAR role, hence the bright yellow color scheme. It is quite larger than the Sea King (it has 3 engines as opposed to 2 on most other helicopters including the CH-124 Sea King). AFAIK, originally, the marine version of the EH-101 was supposed to replace the Sea King along with the SAR version replacing the CH-113, but the politicians cut it. It may just be me, but I doubt that they will get a new chopper any cheaper now than they could have 10 or so years ago...  Insane

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Soren-a
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2001 10:13 pm

RE: Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Sat Mar 01, 2003 10:14 pm

Hi

You can find a picture of Canada's new CH-149 in its bright SAR colors at this link: http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/soren_augustesen/images/farn_2002_05.jpg

Regards
Søren Augustesen
 
VonRichtofen
Posts: 4262
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 3:10 am

RE: Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Sun Mar 02, 2003 7:55 am

I've heard they've been having some minor but frequent problems with the Cormorants, ie: The windshields getting cracks in them much too prematurely.

Can anyone confirm this?

Kris
YYC
 
L-188
Topic Author
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:48 pm

Lesson here.

Buy American...  Wink/being sarcastic
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
VonRichtofen
Posts: 4262
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 3:10 am

RE: Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Sun Mar 02, 2003 5:34 pm

"Buy American..."

You said it!

I wish Air Canada used the same logic you do.

Looks like we're headed for a plastic National carrier.

Kris
 
L-188
Topic Author
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Sun Mar 02, 2003 5:55 pm

VonRichtofen.....Only partially agree with you on that one.

The only reason why Canadian aviation industry is so small, (only one major player....Bombardier) is because of the actions of the government.

Candian Airlines should be buying Canadian built aircraft, the potential was there with the C.102 but the government killed off Avro Canada.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Spacepope
Posts: 3174
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

RE: Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Sun Mar 02, 2003 11:45 pm

Good to hear that no one was injured in this incident. The thing is, though, that we can complain about Canada operating unsafe geriactric aircraft, but the USMC is in the exact same boat here. My girlfriend's father (ex-navy captain) reminded me in a conversation that when a CH-46 hits its original airframe life hours limit, they just tack on a few thousand more. Once this is reached again, the process is repeated. Compound this with fleet-wide high attrition rates (multiple losses in the AH-1, UH-1, CH-46 and CH-53 fleets in the past few years) and you see another force that may be crippled in the not too distant future. I used to maintain an attrittion count on here, I think that we should start it up on here again soon. But that is a different thread.

T.J.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
GDB
Posts: 12653
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Mon Mar 03, 2003 2:28 am

The Royal Navy or the RAF, operating EH-101's in the ASW and troop transport role respectively, have not reported these problems, as far as I'm aware.
What about the Italians?
 
Admiral Ackbar
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 2:26 am

RE: Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Tue Mar 04, 2003 12:45 am

GDB, could it be the harsher conditions (more specifically the cold, snow, ice, hail, etc.) that these birds are subject to in Canada that could be the culprit for these glitches.

I am sure the pilots prefer these birds to the old ones though.
 
bsergonomics
Posts: 458
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 5:07 am

RE: Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Tue Mar 04, 2003 8:18 am

The windscreen on the Merlin has several layers that are bonded together. The problem that occurs is not cracking, but de-bonding. It's a manufacturing issue rather than an environmental issue, and one that they have fixed during late development and initial service (we had one go during trials - that was a pain in the backside because we weren't allowed to fly the aircraft back from the middle of nowhere).

There are no arguments about the fact that the EH101/Merlin/Cormorant is an expensive aircraft. That said, it is a damned fine aircraft to fly - if anything, it is too good. The standing joke during development was, "Well, what is the pilot actually going to do after he's ate his sandwiches and read the paper?" The mission system can do some incredible things - in terms of aircraft capability it is a wonderful bit of kit.

It is true that during late test flights a few bits had a tendency to fall off or break. Two aircraft were lost and a third badly damaged (after a roll-over on landing, though later returned to service) during test flights for the Merlin programme. Two were due to broken shafts to the tail rotor and one to a fire in a gearbox. These problems were sourced and fixed several years ago.

Buy American...

Err... right... Like the AH-64 for example... after years of use in service, it's finally realised that you can't fire Hellfires from the port side because the debris affects the tail rotor... Or the B-2 or the F-22... I could continue...

I'm not turning this into a US versus the rest of the world argument, but the quality of the product is dependent on the product development team, not on the nationality (unless you include subsidies and politics in the equation - even then, it's not a straight contest).
The definition of a 'Pessimist': an Optimist with experience...
 
L-188
Topic Author
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Tue Mar 04, 2003 5:52 pm

Bsergonomics...

I was in a Army Apache unit in the early 1990's and saw them shoot off both 2.75 and Hellfire simulaters at Graf.

Never seemed to be a problem.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
bsergonomics
Posts: 458
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 5:07 am

RE: Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Wed Mar 05, 2003 5:15 pm

As of the middle of last year, the AH-64 and WAH-64s are banned from firing missiles (in particular the Hellfire) from the port side due to debris impacting the tail rotor. As far as I am aware, that ban stilll stands (at least for peace time operations).

I couldn't find the original story, but it is alluded to in the last couple of paragraphs of this story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2379501.stm
The definition of a 'Pessimist': an Optimist with experience...
 
L-188
Topic Author
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:22 pm

Well that is about 10 years after I got out of the service.

Anyway. I wonder if it is really a problem. I would have thought they would have figured that out in Saudi (1991) or at one of the other execises that they have flown and fired those things at.

The military does have a habit of putting all sort of restrictions on an aircraft until they can root out the cause for a mishap.

Be assured that the Apaches in Saudi and in Afghaistan where probably ripping missles off both sides. To do otherwise would be fighting with one hand tied behind your back.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
CX747
Posts: 5579
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

RE: Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Thu Mar 06, 2003 2:09 pm

I have to agree that combat operational squadrons will not have this limitation placed on them, if in fact there is a limitation at all. After all these years in service there is a problem?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
bsergonomics
Posts: 458
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 5:07 am

RE: Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Thu Mar 06, 2003 4:57 pm

There have been problems before with the AH-64 fleet, specifically with the tail rotor. If I remember correctly, the entire fleet was grounded in 2000 because of a manufacturing defect in part of the tail rotor:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1073007.stm

This problem has now been fixed.

As you all know, the one part of a chopper that you do NOT want to go wrong is the tail rotor. I saw the video of an RAF Wessex that came down from about 1500 ft due to tail rotor failure and 'landed' in a lake. The rate of descent and lack of control was scary. So it is not surprising that a problem with the tail rotor mechanism is enough to ground the entire fleet, even though other, significant problems may not have the same reaction.
The definition of a 'Pessimist': an Optimist with experience...
 
L-188
Topic Author
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Forces Canada Lose Another Sea King!

Sun Mar 09, 2003 3:11 pm

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1035778836838&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467

You do have to hand it to the guys that still fly thing things.

I do dispute one comment in this article.

Sea Kings do end up in war zones in US service and I think that the British do put their Commandos into firefights too.

Their role is being taken over by HH-60's though.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests