TomH
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New Book-NAA F-107

Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:41 pm

I am currently reading Air Force Legends #203, the North American F-107A by William J. Simone. At 148 pages, this is likely the most extensive publication on this very interesting fighter. Those interested in US military aviation history may appreciate this series, as well as the well-established Naval Fighters series, both published in California by Steve Ginter. While the initial issues in the Naval Fighters series were somewhat below par Mr. Ginter steadily improved his products throughout the 1980s and by now has produced one of the most respected series of US Naval and Military aviation books seen to date.

Tomh
 
Spacepope
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Mon Apr 21, 2003 12:13 am

Two survivors left.


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Photo © Axel Juengerich



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Photo © AirNikon



Nice century series lineup, but no F-100 or F-104. Boggles the mind.

T.J.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Mon Apr 21, 2003 12:36 pm

"Nice century series lineup, but no F-100 or F-104." What on earth do you mean?
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
2912n
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Mon Apr 21, 2003 12:58 pm

Look at the line up of tails. It is the -107, -106, -105, -102, and the -101. Cool lineup.

Tony
 
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Mon Apr 21, 2003 1:03 pm

The F-100 and F-104 are in there, just not visible from the angle.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
2912n
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Mon Apr 21, 2003 1:43 pm

Hahahaha, okay, they are there, but they ain't in the photo!  Smile

What happened to the F-103? Seems to me it was a Republic product like the F-105 but never made it to production. Anyone know?
 
TomH
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:47 pm

Finished the book yesterday. Very good publication by my estimate. The author was intimately involved in the salvage of 118 pictured above at Pima. I remember building the Aurora kit of this bird when I was in high school.

The F-107A had advanced automated stability systems and other features such as variable ramp intake that were not really operational with the first two of three airframes. The book mentions how much of the R&D was later successfully applied to the A3J-1 Vigilante. The F-107A made quite a contribution in spite of the fact that it did not see series production.

When I look at the info for Axel's photo above, it states, "One of the two surviving prototypes on display at Pima Air and Space Museum." I think the other survivor is actually at the Air Force Museum. Also, the third airframe was apparently destroyed during fire training at Oxnard, CA.

Off the top of my head: The F-103 was to be a Republic ramjet/rocket powered interceptor without a canopy. It was to be used against supersonic bombers, with little or no dogfighting capability. The pilot was to use a periscope of some sort. Drawings (or photos of the mockup, as no prototype was ever built) show a ventral swept-forward intake and tiny delta wings if I remember correctly. I think it may have been in competition with the North American F-108 Rapier, though the latter was a bit more conventional I don't think they ever cut metal on either of the two types.

 
L-188
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Mon Apr 21, 2003 8:28 pm

Hey guys.

Trivia Question:

Do you know what the F-110 aircraft was?

I'll tell you later.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Spacepope
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Mon Apr 21, 2003 10:55 pm

I was under the impression that the F-110 is actually the YF-110 in U.S. service, the good old MiG 21. The YF-113 is the designation for the MiG-23.

And my bad, I thought I posted a pic of each survivor. Heres the one at Wright Patterson, ca. 1970


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Photo © Steve Williams



T.J.
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broke
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Mon Apr 21, 2003 11:07 pm

The F-110A was the original Air Force designation for the F-4C. Once the military services standardized their designation system, the F-110A became the F-4C.

There is an F-107A at the Air Force Museum and it is in very good shape. It has been in the hangar adjacent to the Presidential Hangar, now known as the Research and Development Hangar and I believe that that is where you will find it, but the place is in transition and airplanes are being moved almost daily.
 
L-188
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Mon Apr 21, 2003 11:39 pm

And we have a winner....The F4C phantom
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TomH
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Tue Apr 22, 2003 3:24 am

Well, okay, I'll get into the Phantom thing with a bit of a quiz OTTOMH. Sharpen those keyboards! I mean pencils.

I think the first two USAF wings of F-4C Phantoms worked up around 1963. I believe the 12 TFW was one of them, and perhaps the 3 TFW was the other. The aircraft looked really good, with either light gray or white finish and buzz numbers. I have read that prior to getting production F4Cs, they had been loaned some USN F-4Bs for initial work up.

1. I have often wondered if the overall white/grey paint scheme I mentioned identical to that which was being applied to USN F-4Bs at the time, or was there a different paint FSN used. Can anyone help?

2. What letters were selected in the buzz number?

3. Would they have used the loaned Phantoms much for USAF air-air refuelling work?

4. Did the Navy get their F-4Bs back?

5. Did those USAF pilots attend Top gun school in their F-4s?

6. What air-air missile was broiught into USAF inventory for the first time with the introduction of the Phantom?

7. When was the first flight of the Phantom?

8. Where did the initial USAF workup take place?

9. The GIB in the USN was a RIO, while he was a ____ in USAF.

10.Which flew higher, the F-104 or the F-4?

11. If you downed an enemy aircraft in a Phantom, the kill marking usually was applied to the _______ plate.

12. The presence of a heavy tailhook on USAF F-4s was the cause of the "tailhook scandal" (_____) YES (_____) NO.

13. Like the Air Force, the Navy operated a sizable number of recon Phantoms
(____) YES (____) No.

14. A drone Phantom is so named because of the steady noise produced by its engine(s). (____) YES (____) NO.

15. Early on engine Fan blade nicks were a common reason for grounding the Phantoms. (____) NO (____) YES.

16. Did the Phantom ever score a kill while in supersonic flight?

16.a. 5 pt. Bonus: If so, with what weapon?

17.Bonus non-Phantom question. The F-109 was a prototype effort that involved VTOL technology developed in what European country?

18. Giveaway: OTTOMH=Off the top of my head= 5 Pts.

19. In USAF service, the Phantom replaced the Super Sabre in many wings.
_______________ was to the former what Los Angeles was to the latter.

20. What alphabetic model variant (F4A-Z) letter was used for American services twice, in two unrelated roles?
 
LY744
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:12 am

3. No. Because I'm guessing they didn't have the boom style intake.

4. I'm going to say yes, who wouldn't want their Phantoms back?

5. I don't think Top Gun was established until the early 70's, or very late 60's, by which time I'd imagine the USAF would have their own Phantoms anyways.

6. Probably the AIM-7 Sparrow.

7. OTTOMH, 1957.

9. Hmm, I thought he was the GIB(S) in the USAF, trick question?

13. Yes, ("sizeable"?) I believe their version was the RF-4B, while the AF had the RF-4C, and other countries the RF-4E?

16. Yes.  Smile

20. F-4F (if you ignore the all important dash)


LY744.
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broke
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:34 am

Two more Phantom questions for you.
What were the original designations for the F-4A and the F-4B?

12. No The tail hook on Air Force F-4's was the same as on Navy F-4's, which was used for carrier landings.

14. The drone Phanton was the QF-4 and it was a flying target.

19. St. Louis
 
Spacepope
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:55 am

1) they were a light grey, with white elevators and rudders. This was a darker grey than what was on the navy F-4b's

2)I'm staring at a picture of "FJ-405" as an F-4B that was transferred over, 49405

3) probably not, the KC-135 normally didn't have the drogue basket fitted, and it had to be put on before flight

4)most likely, as the navy birds didn't have dual controls fitted

5)erm, uhh, maybe?

6)Sidewinder? USAF used the Falcon primarily before then

7)May, 1958

8)no idea

9)WSO

10)modified f-104

11)splitter

12)no way.. the presence of navy pilots in las vegas was

13)The RF-4B's were flown by the USMC, not the navy

14)QF-4 drones were supersonic manouvering targets.. not named after their sound

15)no

16)yes, sparrow

17) france

18)

19)Seawolf?

20)F4-b
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TomH
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Tue Apr 22, 2003 7:33 am

You guys are good. Between the three of you most were answered correctly. There were some flakey questions, or stupid questions, whatever....

1. I have often wondered if the overall white/grey paint scheme I mentioned identical to that which was being applied to USN F-4Bs at the time, or was there a different paint FSN used. Can anyone help?

Thanks for info on this Spacepope-I always thought it was not the same as the Navy's paint job. Those early USAF F-4s looked sweet!

2. What letters were selected in the buzz number?
Yes, Spacepope, it was "FJ"

3. Would they have used the loaned Phantoms much for USAF air-air refuelling work?
Agreed, they wouldn't have practiced AAR much because USAF was to use the flying boom method with their Phantoms. Oddly enough, if you had an ex-F-100 pilot in the USAF Phantoms then, he probably had plenty of experience with the hose-drogue method, as that was how the F-100C (and D?) did AAR.

4. Did the Navy get their F-4Bs back?
I think I read that they did get them back.

5. Did those USAF pilots attend Top gun school in their F-4s?
Yeah, I think this was too early for USN Top Gun. I wonder if the early F-4Cs had the 20mm gun pods then anyway. Most of their air-air ACM likely was simulated missile shoots.

6. What air-air missile was broiught into USAF inventory for the first time with the introduction of the Phantom? The Sidewinder was in the USAF inventory from around 1958 onward, while the Sparrow was the missile the Phantom brought to the USAF inventory, much to the disdain of the AIM-4 Falcon-loving brass. Eventually the Falcon would become operational on F-4Ds, at least for a while.

7. When was the first flight of the Phantom?
Shit Hot Popester, May '58.

8. Where did the initial USAF workup take place?
MacDill AFB, FL.

9. The GIB in the USN was a RIO, while he was a ____ in USAF.
Yes, WSO.

10.Which flew higher, the F-104 or the F-4?
I'm talking zoom climbs here.The F-104A exceeded 91,000 feet the same month the F-4 Phantom first flew. The Phantom exceeded 100,000 Ft. in April, 1962. The rocket-assisted NF-104A attained 120,000 ft.in Dec 1963, though I would not have been referring to a "one-off" special mod like this in my question.
11. If you downed an enemy aircraft in a Phantom, the kill marking usually was applied to the _______ plate.
Yes, splitter plate.
12. The presence of a heavy tailhook on USAF F-4s was the cause of the "tailhook scandal" (_____) YES (_____) NO.
NO!!! It had nothing to do with the scandal, and I was chuckling the whole time as this really was a pretty bogus question.
13. Like the Air Force, the Navy operated a sizable number of recon Phantoms
(____) YES (____) No.
NO, the RF4Bs were USMC aircraft as Spacepope pointed out. So why didn't the Navy opt for the RF-4 if it was so good?

14. A drone Phantom is so named because of the steady noise produced by its engine(s). (____) YES (____) NO.
NO, it was an unmanned target drone.
15. Early on engine Fan blade nicks were a common reason for grounding the Phantoms. (____) NO (____) YES.
NO, the J-79 was a turbojet engine, not turbofan.
16. Did the Phantom ever score a kill while in supersonic flight?
I didn't know the answer, but I believe the Popester on this
16.a. 5 pt. Bonus: If so, with what weapon?
And this.
17.Bonus non-Phantom question. The F-109 was a prototype effort that involved VTOL technology developed in what European country?
I recall the 109 was a Bell Aircraft project that involved a three-letter consortium (like VKW or something) in Germany. The straight winged aircraft had rotating twin jets at each and of its stubby-remember? Or maybe I'm all screwed up and thinking of something else.
18. Giveaway: OTTOMH=Off the top of my head= 5 Pts.

19. In USAF service, the Phantom replaced the Super Sabre in many wings.
_______________ was to the former what Los Angeles was to the latter.
Yes, St.Louis, where it was built. B'Jeezus, they call the place Boeing now, don't they? Pope, you musta' been thinking about submarines by the sound of it.
20. What alphabetic model variant (F4A-Z) letter was used for American services twice, in two unrelated roles?
I ain't giving you guys this one. The USN F-4G Phantom first flew in 1963, and the USAF F-4G Phantom, (Wild-Weasel variant) first flew in 1975. This repeat use of the G designation was a DOD screw-up far as I can see.

Thanks for your efforts, guys.
 
2912n
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Tue Apr 22, 2003 7:58 am

I think (dangerous thing...) that the Navy did not use the RF=4 because it had the RA-5 Viggie in service as a dedicated recon platform.
 
TomH
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Tue Apr 22, 2003 8:52 am

Roger that 2912n, and for shorter missions they still had the very capable
RF-8G Crusader, a type that served active Navy units well into the 1980s.
 
Spacepope
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Tue Apr 22, 2003 8:54 am

To get technical, the plane that hot 100,000 feet in the zoom was an F4H-1.
the F-4G (original) program consisted of 12 F-4B's that were used in digital data link trials. Temporary designation only. Just filling in the blanks.

T.J.
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TomH
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Broke

Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:29 pm

Regarding your question about original designations for the F-4A and F-4B. Frankly, I don't think there is an easy answer. I think that the F-4A is the post-1962 designation for the F4H-1. If there was a F4H-2, it likely became the F-4B.

But it's not that simple. The F4H-1 was originally designated AH-1, though this may have been before any flying airframes were produced. Like most programs, there is still an earlier designation you can dust off. The designation I am referring to is F3H-H. This reveals an interesting aspect to the origin of the Phantom. For years I thought it was derived from the F-101 Voodoo, but historically it rather seems to be a close descendant of the F3H Demon.
 
2912n
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Wed Apr 23, 2003 8:20 am

Tom- Have you seen the RF-4 Moon shot?
 
TomH
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Wed Apr 23, 2003 9:18 am

Moon shot? Uh, oh, this could be fun. Ahh, do you mean the verb moon as in, "The WSO mooned the entire flightline following his last combat mission?" Or do you mean a photograph of the familiar lunar subject as taken by the cameras in an RF-4? I think I saw the former when it happened, but nothing comes to my (already blank) mind when I ponder the latter.

No-I haven't seen it.
 
2912n
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Wed Apr 23, 2003 9:25 am

Tom-I sent you an email.

Tony
 
L-188
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Wed Apr 23, 2003 3:06 pm

They didn't even have to invert the aircraft to do it.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
TomH
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Wed Apr 23, 2003 8:38 pm

Well, one of the first things they do when you enter the military is have you drop your drawers for inspection. Obviously the pilot here was multi-tasking part of his flight physical. Quite efficient, don't you think?

A present-day equivalent image would have me stating "his/her flight physical." Then we would all be clamoring for more image resolution!!
 
broke
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Wed Apr 23, 2003 9:09 pm

The F-4A was the F4H-1, which could be identified by its low profile canopies. It was an F-4A that set the world speed record. In addition to the low profile canopies, the airplane's inlet system was modified to include post compression cooling. This is a water injection system that sprayed water into the airstream behind the airframe inlets and forward of the engines. Its purpose was to cool the temperature of the air entering the engine allowing for increased fuel flow and combustion without overtemping the turbine. This allowed for increased thrust, which resulted in the 1606 MPH speed.
The Air Force funded a program to develop the system even further on the F-4 series to get a dash speed of up to M=2.7. The program was cancelled after much of the development was completed.
It has been speculated that the Israelis did adopt this system for their RF-4's
Oh yes, the F4H-1F became the F-4B. This airplane has the higher canopies for better crew vision and the provisions for carrying ordinance.
The F-4A could only carry missiles.
 
TomH
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Thu Apr 24, 2003 2:21 am

Very interesting Broke. I recall seeing photos of the low-profile canopy. Was this type canopy found only on the speed record aircraft, or all F-4As?

I think the Israelis were contemplating the water-injection mod for a pod carrying Phantom. I have seen line drawings of it somewhere. It was either a recon pod or they were gonna use it for a long-range LABS shot, if you get my thinking. You never know.
 
broke
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Thu Apr 24, 2003 3:32 am

Tomh, all F-4A's had the low profile canopies (for some reason 27 airplanes rings a bell). The information I have (an article in Air International) is that the Israeli's operated 5 RF-4's with post compression cooling.
In the "Oh by the way..........." catagory; the MiG-25 also uses post compression cooling.
It's interesting that this topic started out with the F-107A and ended up on the F-4!! Poor attention span, don't you think?  Laugh out loud
 
Spacepope
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:23 am

Close! my sources say 26 F-4A's were used for development, with the production standard being reached on airframe #19.

BUT... there were 2 XF4H-1's made, and 45 pre production and initial production F4H-1Fs. The F suffix indicating use of GE J79-2 or -2a engines instead of the J79-8.

I am no F-4 geek, I am getting this info from the F-4 Phantom II Super Profile book yhat I had since I was a kid. Series editpr Christopher Chant, published 1983. ISBN, if you're looking for a copy, is 0 85429 376 0 Haynes publishing group.

T.J.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
Spacepope
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Thu Apr 24, 2003 8:48 am

L-188: Now you see why the USAF model had controls in the back seat!

T.J.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
TomH
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Thu Apr 24, 2003 10:57 am

Broke,
Yeah, I noticed the drift away from the F-107A subject. This forum seems slow most of the time, so its okay with me that we get into a different but interesting subject.

Phantom story fer ya. I didn't see this, but happened on the scene right after it took place. We were deployed somewhere and they dragged a tired old out of service F-4C over from the boonies so our guys could do a little BDR-battle damage repair. The bird was a mess, the camo was all oxidized and ratty looking, but it was still intact with no holes.

In order for the metal shop to have a challenge on their hands, you have to make the bird look like she's had some AA damage. One of the guys, a big fellow, takes an axe and climbs up on the wing of the Phantom. About 10 feet back of the canopy, he shouts, "I'll put a hole right here!" He swings the axe all his might and damned if the axe didn't just bounce right off the fuselage and fly past his left ear at high speed. "Jeezus, this thing is tough!" he shouts, as he climbs down off the F-4, pretty embarrassed. There were about 15 guys standing around just pissing their pants. Unfortunately, there were a couple of guys from Safety there also, not to mention one or two from the 9th AF inspection team. The laughter died down pretty quickly as they all realized the guy had just about beheaded himself due to the tough skin of that old F-4. Good subject at the club that night, too!
 
TomH
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RE: New Book-NAA F-107

Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:43 pm

I embellished by ommision, but hey, it reads better. In reality he hit a bulkhead with the axe. I believe that following this they located the appropriate T.O. and determined the safe way in which to punch a hole.

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