charleslp
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Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:34 pm

Does anybody which country has the best trained pilots? I'm sure the US, Israel, and some of the Western European countries have relatively the best pilots.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Sat Jul 12, 2003 6:05 am

My guess would be British, American, Israeli, Australian, French.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
L-188
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:43 pm

The skill of the combat pilot pretty much boils down to training time.

And that list is pretty much the countries that get the most training flight time in and have the access to the ranges, either in their country or in friendly countrys to do that flying in.

I would add Germany and Canada to that list.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Qb001
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Sat Jul 12, 2003 1:04 pm

There was a report on 60 Minutes a few years ago and their conclusion was that Israel has the best pilots.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
L-188
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Sat Jul 12, 2003 2:05 pm

Well Israeli pilots did have the advantage of training in the same environment that they where expected to fight in.

The US I think has really closed that gap in recent years both with training technology and with the large number of real combat operations it has had to take part in recently.

Remember the USAF has been pulling Combat Air Patrols in Saudia Arabia and Turkey for 10 years now on a daily basis, in an actualy threat enviroment.

Needless to say, the USAF must have been picking something up.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
keesje
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Sun Jul 13, 2003 6:20 am

An A4 Israeli pilot told me a long time ago performance scores are being kept of every pilot during the yr.

Eevry year the pilots with the lowest scores are removed from the sqs and replaced by new pilots, regardless of past kills & experience.

Pressure to perform is continuous because of this.

Motivation is high, they have full support of the population, the battlefield is the homeland & they know the IAF cannot withdraw.

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
fightingfalcon
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Sun Jul 13, 2003 7:45 am

I also heard of the Israelis having the best trained pilots... USAF sure isn't bad either.

The Swiss are quite good in the alps, ever seen photos of the Axalp demonstrations? Go to http://www.swissjet.ch or http://www.steehouwer.com for great pics, not only from Axalp.

Gruess, Martin
Imprezas rule!!
 
Hamfist
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Sun Jul 13, 2003 6:39 pm

The skill of the combat pilot pretty much boils down to training time.

Training time would certainly be an important factor, but the quality and culture of the training environment are probably of equal importance. You can strap into a combat aircraft three times a day every day, but if you're not accomplishing thorough training missions, you're not producing capable pilots.

 
L-188
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Sun Jul 13, 2003 7:34 pm

True, you aren't going to get much climbing into a cockpit and making engine noises.


That is one of the reasons why I think the US Air Force pilots skills have sharpened significantly since the first Persian Gulf War. They have flown a lot of real world missions and produced the realistic environments that exercises can never provide, no matter how good the simulations are.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
GDB
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Mon Jul 14, 2003 3:45 am

I think the RAF must have benefited from almost constant operational deployments since 1991.

Recently, a documentary on RAF Lyneham and their C-130s ops during the recent Gulf conflict had footage of a resupply mission for some US Marines who were well forward.
They were short of water and rations, the two flights were NVG, with minimum illumination and very tactical, as other aircraft had encountered AAA and SAMs in the area.
C-130Js were used, the RAF squadron commander said something surprising, that they were doing it as "other coalition members had shown a marked reluctance".
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Mon Jul 14, 2003 3:58 am

Well the OSW time since the first gulf war is actually considered bad on a pilot's, Nav's, ABM's, etc skill to a degree, as they never get any air to air training. Eagle drivers are at the worst since there is no air to air threat. The training syllabus for the 15C when they get back to the states is pretty basic to get them back up to 4v4 standards, since they have no practive while overseas. Now Vipers are a different story. F-16CG, and 16CJ get plenty of real world practice in OSW. So it goes both ways so to speak.

Oh my pick for best trained pilots is Belize, The Gambia, and Malta...j/k


Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Lt-AWACS, Yankee Air Pirate
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Mon Jul 14, 2003 5:32 am

"Oh my pick for best trained pilots is Belize, The Gambia, and Malta...j/k"

Don't forget to add Haiti to that list  Big thumbs up

I know Canada is up there, partly because of the huge training area they have free reign over. I think the NATO training centre in Moose Jaw has an area close to the size of Western Europe at their disposal. Of course, American, British, German, Italian basically all NATO countries also send their pilots there. I think it's pretty equal within NATO countries in terms of pilot skill.

Kris
YYC
 
GDB
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:42 am

Yes, they've got that Canadian training school up there with Hawks and either T-6As, Tucanos or PC-9s, cannot remember which turboprop trainer out of the three!
But I bet most of their trade is with other NATO members, rather than just Canadian pilots, the RAF send people there.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Mon Jul 14, 2003 8:01 am

I believe they're PC-9's, Pilatus?

Yeah it's a NATO training base, so they're pilots from all NATO countries there training on a continuous basis.
 
LY744
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Mon Jul 14, 2003 8:54 am

It's the Raytheon CT-156 Harvard II a.k.a T-6A Texan/Harvard II.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Cheshire
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Tue Jul 15, 2003 1:10 pm


If you want some proof of just how good Aussie pilots are, check these out:


http://www.aviationnow.com/content/publication/awst/20010903/avi_stor.htm

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/data/communiques/data/2002Sep12238/index.htm

And just to add another twist to the tale, who's better, USN or USAF? I'd give it to the aviators.....
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Tue Jul 15, 2003 3:15 pm

"And just to add another twist to the tale, who's better, USN or USAF? I'd give it to the aviators"

Better at what, and what facet, I've worked with Aussie, RAF, RN, USAF, USMC, USN, Canadian, German, French, Dutch, R.Sing.AFDanish, and Spanish pilots they do different things well. Overall the USAF has the best overall packaged force out there IMO (you may think I'm biased but I am going off of my control of these fighters on to targets at Maple Flag, Red Flag, OIF, OSW, OEF, and ONE) Granted Navy pilots are better at working with AWACS for MC duties and such, but stateside, they blow through airspaces and have many many more HATRs than Air Force or USMC pilots. THe RAF are excellent, and work Low level runs to the money, and Hit the DMPI everytime. The Aussie in OIF did a great job, though did more Air To Air work (which was boring since there was no threat) since we sent the F-15s home.

THe Marines focus their training more or CAS, than Air to Air, though they are more than capable of doing it. The Navy and fleet defence makes their Air-to-air roles sharp, but bomb dropping can get rusty. F-16 CJs can get rusty on Air to Air if they focus on ALQ-99s and not dropping Iron. Therefore I think you need to get more specific, though it can make for fun discussion.


Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Lt-AWACS, Yankee Air Pilot

I think the question of who is best, is to broad to be answered without getting into specifics.
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
sayem55
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 11:49 am

The number of hours flown/year by a pilot is part of the training
1) The average USAF Pilot: 230 hrs flying time per year
2) The average Pakistani Pilot: 220 hrs flying time per year
.
.
*) The average Isreal Pilot: 180 hrs flying time per year

StarFighter
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:17 pm

But it depends on the type of training, if you are running
2v2s and 1v1 BFM flights for hours at at time in the daylight, you get no benefit over time.

If you run 4v4s and LFEs at night like Israel and the USA, Britain and Singapore, etc. You get more for less.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Lt-AWACS, Yankee Air Pirate
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
sayem55
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:50 pm

Good point Lt-Awacs
I don't know what kind of training Pak pilots get but, in Pakistan they do have CCA (Combat Commanders' School) Pakistan's "Top Gun".
I found an article that is basically a comparison b/w Pak and Indian pilots but also discuss the training PAF pilots get.
I don't know in detail about the military pilot training so you might want to educate me more on that. All I know up till now is flight hours, ability to make sharp terns and quick manoeuvring with typical WW2 dog-fights in mind.
the link
http://www.pakdirectory.net/Pak-IndiaPilot.asp
StarFighter
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:06 pm

No hours are important you are right, though type of training is huge also- that is what I am saying. Pakistan flies the hell out of its pilots to counter the Indian threat, and they focus on that kind of training, and they are well trained, no doubt about it. Pakistan is outgunned, and out manned but still flies up well against India. Countries like Israel, USA, UK France etc, use simulators, etc more so than Pakistan, and India. This also makes a difference.

another example was Op Souther Watch, US Pilots got lots of Hours of southern Iraq, with no air-to-air training. They ahd to come home and start from scratch to regain skills.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Lt-AWACS, Yankee Air Pirate
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
sayem55
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 2:16 pm

Thank you Lt-AWACS for explaining it all to me
PAF does not make every thing public and whatever it does, it is hard for me to conclude what kind of training they are getting since I am not aware of the Aviation terms... simply cannot differentiate between good and bad.
StarFighter
 
jwenting
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:31 pm

The number of hours flown/year by a pilot is part of the training
1) The average USAF Pilot: 230 hrs flying time per year
2) The average Pakistani Pilot: 220 hrs flying time per year
.
.
*) The average Isreal Pilot: 180 hrs flying time per year



average Dutch pilot: 50-60 hours a year
NATO specifies a minimum of I think 125 hours a year, we've been falling short of that for years now.

Part of it is because we have a full squadron in combat operations at all times now (over Yugoslavia and Afghanistan) and they don't get training time at all (and with the size of our airforce a full squadron is a big percentage).
In our airforce combat hours and other airtime (such as demonstration flying and practicing for that) are deducted from the max number of hours you're allowed to fly (which is under 100 a year) so actual training time suffers a lot.

Thank you cost reductions. Accidents are up, proficiency is down.
I wish I were flying
 
LY744
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:36 pm

Sayem, what's the source for those figures? Is there a list on the web or something?

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
sayem55
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:23 am

Here is the source
http://www.pakdirectory.net/Pak-IndiaPilot.asp
They don't have any kind of list, it is just a comparison b/w Indian and Paki pilots. They only reason they listed the USAF and IAF is to give reader an idea whether 220 hrs/year is good or bad. The only other listed flying hours are of the Indians i.e. 130 hrs/year.
StarFighter
 
BarfBag
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Wed Jul 30, 2003 10:21 am

Ok, since someone bothered to drag the IAF into the picture, I'll comment on their capability, but I don't care to garnish it with the usual PAF-vs-IAF crapola:

Training hours in IAF are not uniform, it varies significantly across aircraft, based on the combat roles they're meant for, and some general number on average training hours is meaningless. The IAF flogs the life out of its massive MiG-21 fleet, with total training hours on this platform easily over 220+/year. They know fully well that its easily serviceable and can take the beating they give it. Plus, its made locally. The '21, however, isn't quite made out for the role of a trainer, particularly because of its extremely high t/o & landing speed, poor forward vision and its overall handling characteristics of a tank on steroids. It'll be phased around the second half of this decade by the LCA anyway.

As for the other aircraft, their use in training reflects their role, e.g. Jaguars, MiG-27s and Mirage-2Ks in a DPSA role, the MiG29 Fulcrums in air-superiority roles, and the Foxbats for high-altitude recce (though they're now being phased out in favour of the recently lauched MILSATs). I'm not quite sure of the Su-30MKIs - they're new, and are an absolute brute of a fighter, with a monstrously powerful long-range phased array radar (NIIP N011M PAR) and a comprehensive BVR weapons suite. In addition, the '29s, M2Ks and MKIs train for mid-air refuelling from the IL-78 tankers.

The IAF is placing significant emphasis on developing tactics and doctrines for BVR combat, particularly in view of their recent joint training exercises with France, Russia and US. According to SIPRI, the IAF has acquired something like 6000+ BVRAAMs/MRAAMs of various kinds in just the last 3-4 years, particularly the R-77, R-73 and R-27. The Python 4 is also in the IAFs wishlist, though I don't know if its already ben acquired; Indo-Israeli defence deals remain largely under wraps, whether its high-level intelligence contacts or run of the mill stuff, primarily to keep the Arabs in good humor and keep our oil import bill within control  Smile
 
ILOVEA340
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Sun Aug 03, 2003 12:52 pm

My personal opinion after seeing some of the training they go through is that the Swiss airforce Pilots are among the best trained. Plus those F/A-18's look great with swiss flags  Smile

 
CV990
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Sun Aug 03, 2003 2:24 pm


Hi!

The best pilots are all, only they have to be in their enviroment. Lets see a Israeli pilot might be good fighting in the desert but if he goes to artic conditions and get a swedish/norwegian/dannish/finnish pilot he'll be dead. If a swiss pilot goes to an iberian country and fight there with a portuguese/spannish pilot he'll be dead, in the same way a portuguese/spannish pilot if it goes to fight a swiss pilot in the tight mountains of Switzerland he'll certainly crash in the Matterhorn!!!
Portugal for example have won already the Silver Tiger Trophy flying with Fiats G.91R3's/R4's in the yearly Tiger Meet, and most of the other air forces involved had much better fighers!!! So I must say portuguese pilots not only are good but also very competent and efficient.
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
Com3205
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:18 pm

I found this photo of an F15 trying to escape in a break but to late. Why did the F15 close in soo much? Hopefully it was a training flight.
Greetz
The photo:
http://airborne-jc.skynetblogs.be/images.php?image=24116_fight.jpg&resize=no
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 11:59 pm

that photo could mean anything really. Was it another F-15 taking the photo, was the F-15 without GCI/AWACS? Was the F-15 playing Red Air in a training flight, thus simulating Former Soviet tactics?? Being that F-15s work for BVR tactics by the 'Grinder' and other tactics, could be a new guy who lost lock.
As for the F-15 closing, it could have been simulating Soviet IR missiles only, could have been gadget bent and not seen the threat, could be constant regens so it is a one for one shot traingin scenerio. Lots of options.

So that photo could mean anything. I've got photos of Gun Camera views of kills on me at Flag excercises, that doesn't mean it was 'bad', just training.

I will say we know it was training as no F-15 has ever been lost in an Air-to-Air engagement (Us, Israel, Saudi). It is cool gun camera photo though.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Lt-AWACS, Yankee Air Pirate
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!

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