L-188
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What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:05 pm

Hey guys, trying to figure out what Air Superiority fighters would have been available for use in 1958-1960 by the new air force of a developing country.

Figure that the ground attack mission will be going to F-100D's but am still trying to look for a good air superiourity fighter or interceptor.

Want to stay with US or Western Aircraft, non-warsaw pact.

Any help will be much appreciated.
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Staffan
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:19 pm

Saab J35 Draken came into service around that time.

Staffan
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: What Fighter Planes Would Have Been Available?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:03 pm

A good portion of the USAF's "century series" would have been available: the F-101B Voodoo, F-102 Delta Dagger, F-104 Starfighter , F-106 Delta Dart were all either in production or on the market in the time period you describe.
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jwenting
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:29 am

In that time, you're thinking F84 (maybe -86), MiG-15 and -17, Vampire and Venom.
Maybe MiG-19, F-104 and J-35 if you had a lot of money.

The 102, 106 and 101 were not for export, having a nuclear role.
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L-188
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:52 am

Actually the F-101's where exported to Canada.

So I might consider that one a possiblity, since it would have a simular role.
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Cheshire
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:51 pm

the British Lightning......and the Phantom flew in '61.....
 
saintsman
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:44 pm

The British were still big in aviation around that time so a good candidate for a developing country would have been the Gloster Javelin.

Here's some photos:

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/javelin/pics01.shtml
 
L-188
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:08 pm

Wheren't Javelin's only operated by the RAF?

I would like to try and find something that was at least exported a little, to add credibility to the timeline.
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trident3
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 4:56 am

the Hawker Hunter would have been the UK's main export fighter of the time. They were used in many countries
http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/hunter/
Some good links on that site for other British cold war jets.
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CV990
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 7:42 am


Hi!

Just another fighter that mostly is forgotten, the Republic F-105 Thunderchief, it was a great airplane and very original.
Regards
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 8:21 am

L-188 was looking for an air superiority fighter/interceptor. The Thud was decidedly neither of those.
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L-188
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:21 pm

Only now do I realize that I misspelled Fighter in the topic....D'oh


I am starting to lean toward an order for F-8 Crusaders that would come a couple years after 1959 and the initial order of F-100D's.

The F-105 is a great airplane but it runs into the problem that it was never exported and for the time frame, I think that most of them would have been retained for Nam.

The Hawker Hunter is also a possiblity.
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 3:07 pm

F-8's not bad, but fwiw, I would have gone with the F-104, considering it was more widely exported.
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L-188
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 3:09 pm

I was thinking F-104 but aren't they a bit shorter legged then the F-8
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Spacepope
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:37 am

The Crusader was a good plane, with, in later models, a fairly decent load carrying capability for a light fighter. Armament could include 4X20mm cannon, 2 or 4 AIM-9 sidewinders on fuselage pylons (depending on if the "Y" adapter was used) and on later models, 2 underwing pylons each carrying a Bullpup missile or up to 6 MK82 bombs. RF-8 models also available, but unlike the F-104, I don't think there were any 2 seat trainers produced. I'll check my references though, TF-8 sounds sorta kinda familiar. If you want a REAL interceptor (that never got into production) try the Crusader III. Recessed sparrows in the fuselage, and very good performance, unfortunately it lost the Navy contract to the F-4.

T.J.
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 5:22 am

I'll compare base models (F-104A to F-8A), info from Joe Baugher's online Encylopedia http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/

Chance-Vought F8-U1 (F-8A) :
Engine - One Pratt & Whitney J57-P-4A/-12 turbojet, 10,000 lb.s.t. dry, 16,200 lb.s.t. with afterburning.

Maximum speed: 1013 mph (Mach 1.53) at 35,000 feet, 733 mph at sea level.
Initial climb rate: 20,000 feet per minute.
Service ceiling: 42,300 feet.
Combat ceiling: 51,500 feet.
Combat radius: 389 miles, maximum combat range 1474 miles.
Armament: Four 20-mm Colt-Browning Mk-12 cannon with 144 rounds per gun. Two AIM-9A Sidewinder air-to-air missiles on fuselage cheek rails. A rocket pack carrying 32 2.75-inch folding-fin rockets could be fitted underneath the fuselage which was lowered with the speed brake.

Lockheed F-104A Starfighter
Engine: One General Electric J79-GE-3A/3B turbojet, 9600 lb.s.t. dry and 14,800 lb.s.t. with afterburning.

Maximum speed 1037 mph at 50,000 feet.
Initial climb rate: 60,395 feet per minute.
Service ceiling: 64,795 feet.
Combat ceiling: 55,200 feet.
Combat range: 730 miles, Maximum combat range 1400 miles (with drop tanks).
Armament: One 20-mm M61A1 cannon in the fuselage with 725 rounds, plus a pair of wingtip-mounted AIM-9B Sidewinder infrared homing air-to-air missiles.

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lehpron
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 12:45 pm

Wasn't the F-104 the US's first M2.0 fighter? I doubt that the speed of sound at 50kft is 518 mph.
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L-188
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:52 pm

Wow.

Those two are closer matched then I would have imagined.

I guess I should start thinking of the F-104 again

For some reason I was thinking that it was pretty short legged.
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: What Fighter Planes Would Have Been Available?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 2:16 pm

Lehpron, the F-104 was indeed a Mach 2 aircraft..at 35,000 ft, where it could travel at a max speed of Mach 2.2. But, to address how fast it could go at the stated 50,000 feet, the speed of sound at 50k is 573.8 knots or 660.3 mph. Thus, the max speed of the Starfighter at 50,000 feet was about Mach 1.57.

L-188, the match-up is closer and it takes a lot for me to say this considering I'm generally a fan of naval aviation, but I'd go with the F-104 based on how widely exported it was, considering Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Italy, Japan, Jordan, the Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Taiwan and Turkey all flew the Starfighter. To my knowledge, the only export sales of the F-8 were to the French and the Filipinos.
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L-188
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Sun Nov 23, 2003 2:48 pm

but I'd go with the F-104 based on how widely exported

I will probably do the same, but there is something to be said for being different.
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Alessandro
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:52 am

Perhaps the SAAB J32 Lansen, fully tested. The Draken was too new back then...
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jwenting
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Thu Nov 27, 2003 5:28 am

F-101 was allowed for export to Canada as part of Canada's role in NORAD and therefore the defense of North America against nuclear strike.
No other country was offered the aircraft even in a stripped version.

Indeed the F-8 was sold only to the Philipines and France.

Seeing as the scenario talks about a third world country, highend aircraft would be out of the question.
Those would simply be too expensive.
Therefore the most likely candidates would be in the F-5 class, or second hand aircraft of the previous generation.
F-84s, Hunters, etc. Maybe Sabres.
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L-188
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Sat Nov 29, 2003 1:44 pm

Well, I said, developing, not 3rd world.

Developing in 1959 would actually be for example, Taiwain and Korea. Once could consider most European nations 10 years earlier as "developing"

To me 3rd world would be something completely worse off.
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keesje
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Mon Dec 01, 2003 10:13 pm

'58-'60 developing countries

just in production were the small, fast agile interceptors Mig21 and Mirage III.

Both became widely and succesfully exported to developing countries all over the world and fought / fight each other.

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L-188
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Mon Dec 01, 2003 10:18 pm

Problem is the Mirage III really didn't get over to developing nations until the mid to late 1960's

I thought of that one as a follow on though.

And the Mig-21 even the earlier examples probalby is just a wisker too modern too.

At that time I suspect that Mig-17's and 19's would have been the warsaw past aircraft of choice.

But since I am picturing this country aligned with the west more, I don't think the Mig is a viable alternative.
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