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keesje
Posts: 9380
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Mix Of F22s And Gripen Better The Eurofighter?

Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:27 pm

Politically highly undesirable of couse.

But would the Luftwaffe and RAF been better of with a mix of Gripens and F22s ?



Some bases with F22s to do the homeland defense and big amounts of localy ¨produced and upgraded Gripens for multirole missions such as ground support, UN missions etc ...

Better value for less money IMO ....

It would have freed up people and resources to design a worthy JSF like aircraft for service entry after 2010/1013 instead of wasting 20 yrs on the "just good enough eurofighter (with no stealth, no mach 1.4 cruise, no thrust vectoring, no phased array radar ..)


"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
jwenting
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RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:31 am

Of course, custom aircraft for every job are always preferable if you can afford to buy enough of them for each mission separate.
Problem is that few airforces these days have the facilities and funds to maintain that many aircraft.

If you need 100 F-22s and 300 Gripens, your politicians will conclude that 300 Gripens alone can do the same work if you buy some AMRAAMs for them (or lease the AMRAAMs, like the Hague did).
They'll then continue to reason that 200 can do the work of 300 if you train your crews to be multimission capable, and that since there is no enemy 100 are enough because there won't be any attrition.

So instead of the 400 aircraft you need you get only 100 of the lesser capable one.
I wish I were flying
 
Spacepope
Posts: 3334
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RE: Mix Of F22s And Gripen Better The Eurofighter?

Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:34 am

And what happens when you try to hang, say, 4 AMRAAMS off of a gripen and try to make it chase down a supersonic target at 50,000 feet? Not gonna happen. Only then will the beancounters realize "Oh, maybe we should have had an airplane designed to do what we want it to do". The gripen would need to be in full 'burner the whole time just to get a shot off, and the F-404 is still thirsty at max power, no matter how efficient it is. Dry tanks on internal fuel comes way too soon. Then again, the same can be said about the MiG 29....
The last of the famous international playboys
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: What Figher Planes Would Have Been Available?

Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:42 pm

You attribute intelligence to beancounters?
They'll just redefine the mission to lowlevel only and decide that anything over 25000ft is the domain of SAMs (which are graciously part of US forces which will deploy (as defined in the NATO manifest) in case of crisis).
Problem solved, money saved for their Bahamas accounts.
I wish I were flying
 
Spacepope
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Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

RE: Mix Of F22s And Gripen Better The Eurofighter?

Wed Dec 24, 2003 7:52 am

Jwenting: I think you'd agree, that statement would be funnier if it wasn't so true! Just wait till the Greens get involved, when they decide that SAM exhaust is toxic to some northwest european shitfly and demand that those be withdrawn too!
The last of the famous international playboys
 
Sinlock
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RE: Mix Of F22s And Gripen Better The Eurofighter?

Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:23 pm

I could be wrong but,

As far as I know the F/A-22 Raptor is not and has not been offered for Export. Not like the U.K. or Germany could afford it if it was offered.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
jwenting
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RE: Mix Of F22s And Gripen Better The Eurofighter?

Thu Dec 25, 2003 12:05 am

I know Spacepops, it would be funny if it weren't true.
The reasoning I give is precisely the reasoning the Dutch government has been using time and again for scrapping capabilities, all I did was apply it to a new theoretical scenario...

F-22 has AFAIK indeed not yet been offered for export, but I think were the UK for example to request them they would be allowed to purchase.
The number of countries that would meet export criteria would likely be very small, at least for another 10 years or so just as it was with the F-15 which initially was not offered for export either but was opened up later and exported to several nations (Japan, Saudi, Israel).
I wish I were flying
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Mix Of F22s And Gripen Better The Eurofighter?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:54 am

Keesje and the Eurofighter again ....  Nuts

1) Eurofighter Typhoon is most likely the most capable European air superiority fighter and at least one of the world's most capable multirole fighter.
Gripens are comparatively affordable but are more similar to F-16s rather than EF Typhoons or Rafales.

2) "Better value for less money IMO ...."
Most likely wrong. Even if you would start production of F-22s and Gripens in Germany and within GB you would have to pay royalty for each jet produced; F-22's fly-away price is twice as high as that of EF Typhoons, and mixed fleets are (at least in most cases and in the long run) more expensive than homogeneous fleets.

3)"It would have freed up people and resources to design a worthy JSF like aircraft for service entry after 2010/1013 "
Nonsense! The F-22 isn't available until now - not even for the U.S. - and no one is stupid enough to introduce one or even two new types of fighters only to remove them from service a couple of years later.
And no, AFAIK the F-22 is not for export - or maybe later with weaker systems.

4) "with no stealth"
Overrated ... The EF does have a reduced signature, though.

"no Mach 1.4 cruise"
Mach 1.2 "supercruise" isn't that bad ...

"no thrust vectoring"
... which is under development ....

no phased array radar ..
... which is under development as well. That being said, the Rafale has an active phased array radar but from what I have heard Typhoon's Captor is more capable. So which one is better?

5) "Some bases with F22s to do the homeland defense and big amounts of locally ¨produced and upgraded Gripens for multirole missions such as ground support, UN missions etc ..."
Then you would use the more capable longe-range air superiority fighter to protect the already secure (and small) national airspace and deploy the weaker aircraft to the more dangerous places on earth?
I support the right to arm bears
 
zak
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: Mix Of F22s And Gripen Better The Eurofighter?

Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:44 pm

something people overestimate is the value of "stealth".
the b1 has a low signature, but is not referred to as stealth.
some people seem to think of stealth and no stealth as a black and white world, which is utter nonsense.
it is actually so that stealth planes have a purpose, which however is rather limited. their operational effectivity has been blown somewhat out of proportion due to the fact that they have seen action against countries with "not so modern" AD systems only and with no enemy airthread present.
taken into account that planes like the b2 need special hangar and local infrastructure and mainteance they really fall into the "precision firststrike and a special mission here and there", not more not less.
noone doubts that the f-22 has a low signature, lower then the eurofighter for sure.
but that doesnt mean that the f-22 is invisible in comparison to the eurofighter.
stealth, like everything, has so many variables to it that a definite judgement is only possible for a specific situation, and not overall.
so thinking about getting 200 f-22 export(less capable most likely) or 400 eurofighter, i'd go for the eurofighters. you have a more versatile type, twice as much planes, less maintenance(no special stealth things to take care of), most likely better dogfighting ability due to the lower weight, better spares aviability due to only 1 plane in the fleet(the f22 choice would mean you will need mud movers aswell) etc.
so i think you have under a practical point of view, for the requirements of the european nations, a better pick with the ef.
an important plus is also the strategic imperative of not being dependant on products from another continent, which was also the reason for the a400m engine choice.
10=2
 
Spacepope
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Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

RE: Mix Of F22s And Gripen Better The Eurofighter?

Sun Dec 28, 2003 9:44 am

I agree that the use of the word "stealth" is misleading. I think a more appropriate term would be "low observable" as this would include radar, infared, and visual aquisition methods, instead of just one. Indeed, radar jamming would do little to help an aircraft with white hot tailpipes in an IR threat environment. Also, it should be noted that a "stealthy" airframe is of little value when used without other countermeasures (jamming, avoidance tactics).

T.J.
The last of the famous international playboys

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