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rg828
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SU-27 Flanker

Sat May 08, 2004 10:43 am

I've always admired this plane for its looks and legendary airshow performances - both good and bad.
However, I've always wondered how it would hold up to a Western air superiority type, like and Eagle for example.
I've never read anything regarding any "flyoff" between a Flanker and an Eagle, only a "mild" comparison between a an RAAF Hornet, where it seemed like they were stressing the F-18's strenghts. I've never bought that report. I have no doubt that after the collapse of the USSR they staged a showdown between the two!
So, does anyone know the truth, the real truth?
I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
 
HaveBlue
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RE: SU-27 Flanker

Sat May 08, 2004 4:23 pm

I've seen comparison reports of aircraft vs aircraft which I will try to look up and post for you. But, from memory, nothing came close to outmanuevering/dogfighting the Su-27 (maybe Su-37 perhaps, not sure which was used) except the F-16 did fairly well, and the F-22 was on par. All others fell well short.

That is USA vs Russia. Can't remember if the Rafale and Typhoon were included in the scenario.

I'll try to post the link tomorrow.
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rg828
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RE: SU-27 Flanker

Sat May 08, 2004 4:32 pm

Thanks Haveblue!
I'll be curious to see how the F-22 did.
Interesting that from what you said, the F-15 came up short compared to the F-16.
I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
 
LY744
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RE: SU-27 Flanker

Sun May 09, 2004 2:24 am

"Interesting that from what you said, the F-15 came up short compared to the F-16."

Why? They're only talking about dogfighting, and the more agile F-16 beats the larger and heavier F-15 hands down in that category, to put it simply.


LY744.
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Blackjack
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RE: SU-27 Flanker

Sun May 09, 2004 4:57 am

In France there is a magazine whose the name is : AIR FAN, and I have one where there is a article who compare the F15 and the S27!
I think that I have this magazine with me here in my office, I will check for you if you like french language!! Big grin Big grin

Bye from frenchie...  Smile
 
NoUFO
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RE: SU-27 Flanker

Sun May 09, 2004 9:45 am

The countries that contributed to the development of the Eurofighter Typhoon asked a Swedish group to evaluate how Typhoon and competing western aircraft would perform against the Su-27. The results:

Provided the pilots are equally skilled, 1.0 means, the western aircraft always wins. 0.0 means, a Su-27 always wins. I can not recall the numbers for the F-18, but the Hornet ranked between the F-15 and F-16:

F-22: 0.9x
Typhoon: 0.8x
Rafale: 0.5x
F-15: 0.50
F-18: ?
F-16 C (?): 0.2x

The Swedish Gripen was not included, most likely to keep the (rather theoretical) investigation neutral.
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rg828
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RE: SU-27 Flanker

Sun May 09, 2004 5:25 pm

Thanks for all the replies guys.
So, the F-22 and Typhoon have the greatest chances of winning, while the Rafale and Eagle have a 50% chance, while the Falcon has te least probability of winning?
Now I'm more confused !
Keep those reports coming...!
I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
 
IndianFlyboy
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RE: SU-27 Flanker

Tue May 11, 2004 2:33 pm

RG828,

When it comes to a dog fight the Flanker series would win hands down over most of the western types.The F 22 would probably be the only one which can even compete. The later generations the Su 30/35/37 would win hands down against the F 22 as well. However it is hard to compare to aircrafts designed with completely different ideologies. Most of the russian aircrafts are extremely effective in dogfights but lack on the technology front (Not talking about the newer Sukhoi's here) .Their western counterparts on the other hand have excellent avionics and excellent weapons systems so in a BVR scenario would be able to put up a very effective counter attack. Taking the example of the Indian Air Force , the MiG 29's purchased in 94 have recently been retro fitted with newer avionics for better flight management, weapons systems management and to allow the capability to fire the Amraamski , which they were unable to do earlier. Avionics upgrades are also in progess for the MiG 21's ,and the 27's.
So in short when you compare win ratios you have to take 2 things in mind , will the Sukhoi's survive the missile onslaught of their western counterparts , in the event that they do and get close to the western fighters there are very slim chances of the western's surviving. However in the event that they dont , their dog fighting skills are of hardly any use.

Regards
 
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STT757
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RE: SU-27 Flanker

Wed May 12, 2004 1:33 am

The Western and Russian fighter designs are going in opposite directions..

The Western Designs rely on Stealth and superior avionics and weapons systems to kill targets "over the horizon" before the targets even know they are being targeted.

The Russian designs focus on manuverability and close in dog fighting skills.

Which one is superior, well you would have to ask the folks who test them in the Nevada desert Big grin
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rg828
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RE: SU-27 Flanker

Wed May 12, 2004 1:25 pm

Thanks again for the replies.
I know very well that Western philosophy prefers a BVR engagement - probably began with the YF-12 in the 60's - so whoever has the technology wins that battle, not necessarily a show of airmanship.
I always wanted to know how the SU-27 and a Western type could handle a down and dirty engagement, eyeball-to-eyeball.
Yup, I would sure like to ask a red-hat squadron pilot this question though!!!
I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
 
L-188
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RE: SU-27 Flanker

Fri May 14, 2004 2:44 pm

"It isn't the crate, but the man sitting in it" Manfred von Richtofen
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ftrguy
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RE: SU-27 Flanker

Sat May 15, 2004 12:01 am

L-188 said it perfectly! If a pilot is not trained well or does not stay current, he might as well be flying a Cessna 172 because he and his machine are useless.
 
L-188
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RE: SU-27 Flanker

Sat May 15, 2004 8:25 am

Technology is developed to overcome tactics.
Tactics then evolve to overcome technology.
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