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Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:22 am



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i saw today this kind of aircraft while i was doing the pushback at my home-airport frankfurt, first i couldn't identify it because it was on the other side of the airport( u.s air base) and very far away. the shape of the fuselage was clearly a boeing 707 (never seen before in F R A since i work here).....but these MASSIVE engines.i thought : 707 and these kind of engines= no way....
i asked the captain via headset if he could identify the aircraft and he said that this is a military version of a 707....

does anybody know something more about this mightymighty aircraft?

thank you
FA
 
starrion
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:30 am

The -R KC-135's have the newer engines on them. They undergo a huge refurb, which is needed because of how old most of these birds are.

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Vorticity
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:31 am

They re-engined a lot of them with high-bypass turbofans. One reason being fuel efficieny.
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N328KF
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:37 am

Yeah, they have GE CF6s in them now. They're thinking about doing the same thing to the B-52. The Department of Defense has lots of CF6 units in use -- they even power Navy ships! Though there they're called LM2500s, but they're the same thing.
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exPratt
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:39 am

The engines are CFM56, not CF6.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:42 am

Whoops. You're right, they are CFM56s. Four CF6s would be a lot of thrust, now that I think about it.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
trekster
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:44 am

us and uk Air force fly the up graded 707 as the E3 D sentry. A very nice looking plane with a radar dome rotating on the top.

707 Being my fav plane, its nice to know there is a sqd of them based a few miles down the road.
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Lt-AWACS
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:49 am

Trekster- The US E-3s are B/C  Big grin yours are D, and much nicer with the new engines and good galleys  Smile though you have fewer consoles. I flew on a Brit E-3 in OIF once. Good guys.

The KC-135 is actually a tad smaller than the 707, it came from the Dash 80 also, but is about a foot narrower, and a tad shorter than the 707s in military use.. E-3, TC-18, E-6, VC-137 etc

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ground
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:53 am


how difficult (or easy) is it to put a whole new type of engines to a 25+ year old aircraft????...i remember that Douglas improved the DC-8 with new fan-engines too.
 
trekster
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:55 am

What are ur ones named after. I laughed when i found out about the waddington base ones

There named afterthe seven dwarfs

I think i have been on sleepy 2 times
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:00 am

Yes, the 707 and some DC-8s feature CFM engines-

http://www.cfm56.com/engines/cfm56-2/index.html
 
Tasha
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:08 am

The Reserves fly them from GPT as well. There are normally several of these sitting on the military side of the airport.

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Spacepope
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:52 am

Relax, you didn't see a 707. You saw a 717. the C-135 line is 4 inches narrower than the 707 (the 717/C-135 was 12 inches wider than the dash 80, the 707 was 4 inches wider than the 717/C-135 so that it would be wider than the DC-8). The 717 also has a completely different wing than the 707, although it has been retrofitted with 707 tailplanes.

How many different types of engines have the 707/717 been fitted with? not counting the 720 testbeds, I can think of at least 5... J-57, Conway, JT3-D (TF-33), JT8D-200, and CFM-56.
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miamix707
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:41 am

I think people are surprised because 707s didn't fly in airline service with those engines. Its still a great looking machine, but with those thick engines it looks more like one of those airbuses you see nowadays  Yeah sure
 
tungd
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:34 pm

Please correct me if I'm wrong....

The Dash-80 was the "prototype" of what eventually became the 707, and was only used for demonstration and testing. The military -135 was the first production model of the basic design, with the 707's following later as the "final," and improved, passenger type.

Since the -135 family is still the backbone of the U.S. military's tanker/AWACS/airborne command, etc., fleet, the new engines are a way to keep the old planes flying for another couple of decades.
 
L-188
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:03 pm

Your just a bit outside.

The -80 was a narrowbody "Technology demonstrator"

The original idea was to build the 707 as a wider cabin aircraft, with 5 across seating. This is the cabin width the KC-135 has.

Douglas then was working on developing their DC-8 with 6 across seating. After loosing a number of orders to Douglas (Who's airplane was still only on paper) Boeing relented and redesigned the 707 with th 6 across seating we know today.
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MD-90
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:31 pm

But the JT8D-200 series was just for testing purposes, right? There haven't been any 707s that've actually had four JT8Ds, have there?

Yeah, it does look kind of like an A345, now that you mention it.
 
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:41 pm

Sorry, didn't read Spacepope's last reply before posting reply 15.

His numbers for the widths sound about right.

Althought I think I might disagree with him to a point on the wing.

My understand was that the early 707's used the KC-135 wing. But when the "Intercontinental" versions came up Boeing had to design a larger wing for the mission.

But correct me if I am wrong.
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SlamClick
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:56 pm

This has been hashed out before but the C-135 is NOT a B-717.

This

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Is a Boeing 717 The FAA has only issued one type certificate for a Boeing 717 and this is it.
* * *

The prototype was a Boeing 367-80

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L-188
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:19 pm

The FAA doesn't issue type certificates to miliary aircraft Slamclick.

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Spacepope
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:11 am

Samclick: does the FAA register have the model number for the B-52 listed either?

L-188 I think the wings were totally different. I'm looking for evidence on the web, but here are a few pics from a.net.

707 (E-3)
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717
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Notice the trailing edge of the inboard section of wing here:

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on the KC-135, they meet at an angle. Blow up the 707 on the right, and you see that the trailing edge is perpendicular when it meets the fuselage.
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SlamClick
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RE: Surprized By Military 707

Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:57 am

So if the FAA does not issue type certificates for military aircraft just exactly WHAT authority would make the C-135 be a B-717?

  • Boeing? No, they are the ones who designated the re-worked Douglas design a B-717.

  • The FAA? Nope, L-188 himself ruled that one out. Besides if they did then the former Douglas product would have been called something else.

  • Old wive's tale? Bingo!


  • And BTW L-188 the FAA does issue type certificates to military aircraft when the manufacturer makes the application.

    C-130 became L-100 and L-382. There are other examples of military-first types, but you get the idea.

    And so, if you can get an FAA type rating in a KC-135 (and you can) what would it say on your license? Certainly not B-717. It will say B-707. I have friends who have done exactly this.

    There are two Boeing fables that people have been passing along for as long as I can remember. One is that the 707 is called the 707 because the sweep angle of the wings is 45o and .707 is the sine/cosine of 45 degrees. Problem is, the sweep is more like 35o The other one is the B-717 thing. There may even be some internal papers at Boeing that refer to it that way, but there is no official designation making it so.

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    Spacepope
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    RE: Surprized By Military 707

    Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:48 am

    Sam, you are flat wrong. This is from the Boeing website:

    "Following that pattern, the other offspring of the Dash 80, the Air Force tanker, was given the model number 717. Since it was an Air Force plane, it was also given a military designation of KC-135.

    After 717 was assigned to the KC-135, the marketing department made the decision that all remaining model numbers that began and or ended in 7 would be reserved exclusively for commercial jets. (After the Boeing-McDonnell Douglas merger in the late 1990s, the model number 717 was reused to identify the MD-95 as part of the Boeing commercial jet family.)"

    http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2004/february/i_history.html

    And tell me if you find the Boeing model 454 on the FAA website while you're at it.

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    f4wso
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    RE: Surprized By Military 707

    Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:58 am

    I was on a trip recently with a former tanker pilot. As we talked aviation, he mentioned how the tanker community didn't like Boeing calling the McD airplane the 717 since that was the original model number of the C/KC-135. I don't have specifics at hand but thought it a coincidence that I had this converation a couple of weeks ago and the 717 issue pops up in this forum. I hadn't hear the 717 reference to the tanker before then.

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    Lt-AWACS
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    RE: Surprized By Military 707

    Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:06 am

    Tungd- The 135 is not an AWACS, the E-3 is from the 707-(320) ariframe, two rebuilds of 707 airliners, the rest new build E-3s. The E-6. , E-8, E-3, TC-18 and VC-137 are all 707s. The 135 airframes (KC, EC, RC) are all from the Dash-80, 717 series mentioned above.

    Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
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    EMBQA
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    RE: Surprised By Military 707

    Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:24 am

    WoW.....a slightly heated debate on what Boeing 'really' calls the 717.

    To add......from what I remember reading, back in the very late 1950's when Boeing came out with the 707 from the Dash-80 program, they also gave the military equivalent the design designation '717'..which quickly became the C-135 family. It was given its own designation due to the fact the aircraft was slightly different (as mentioned above). Now.......the 7*7 designation was really only meant for the commercial side of Boeing, so......back several years ago when Boeing acquired McD and the MD-95, they renamed it the 717. I remember much debate about this by the 'purists' as they claimed "Boeing already has the 717....its the C-135"
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