LMP737
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Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:57 am

Hopefully this is not another "Dewey defeats Truman" situation but it looks like Boeing wins the competition. If so congrats to the Boeing team. Who knows, maybe Lockheed might be bought on board as a subcontractor since they have so much experience with navy patrol.



http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/040614/arms_navy_plane_boeing_2.html
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PPGMD
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:05 am

Made a post about this in the other MMA thread. It looks like it's true all the websites are reporting that Boeing won.
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LMP737
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:05 am

Hopefully the MMA won't be cancelled like the P-7 was in 1990.
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United777
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:09 am

The news conference is on live right now for those who live in the Seattle area. As of 2:10 pm it's on NWCN. It's the offical annoucment from the DOD.
 
Sinlock
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:21 am

Heres a link of the official DoD news release.

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/2004/nr20040614-0902.html


I'm glad I'm still holding 2/3's of stock from my post 9-11 buy.







LINK FIX

[Edited 2004-06-14 23:26:46]
 
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STT757
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:43 am

Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
LMP737
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:55 am

Last week I said that IMO LM was going to win. I based this on the assumption that the Navy would go with an airframe that has been proven the maritime patrol mission. Guess I was mistaken.  Smile Hey, I wonder if Boeing is hiring yet for this program.  Big grin
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whitehatter
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:19 am

The same kind of argument makes the Boeing a no-brainer.

An airframe with huge operating experience behind it, parts available globally for those systems which are 737-common, and engines which are among the widest-used type in aviation. If one was to go tech outside the US then replacement parts would probably be easy to source locally from a civilian operation.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
ulfinator
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:23 am

LMP737-

As far as being canceled in the future like the P-7 we will have to wait for the future. However one thing that was stated over and over by the Deputy Secretary of the Navy (John Young I think it is) during the press conference was that the P-3s have an average age of 26yrs and for most of that time they have been utilized more than the average baseline amount of hours each month that they were supposed to get. Sounds like they are pretty sure that by 2013 they will need them a lot.

Also there was a question asking if this would be called the P-8 or maybe the P-7 1/2 since the last one was canceled.
 
LMP737
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:43 am

Whitehatter:

I see what you are saying. My opinion was based on my experiences in the Navy. They tend to be a conservative bunch which lead me to believe that they would stick with something they are familiar with in the maritime patrol mission.
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:53 am

On the designation issue - my guess would be P-8, as the P-7 designator was given out and designators aren't reused. Then again, with all the abandonment of the designation system as of late, who's to say?
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Vorticity
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:54 am

Hey, I wonder if Boeing is hiring yet for this program.

They say 1600 jobs across the country. My inside source tells me around 500 in St. Louis, MO, they could be posted as early as tomorrow.  Smile
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whitehatter
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:43 am

LMP737

I think the record of the civilian 737 would appeal to the most conservative of the Navy brass. It's proven, has great availability for parts and good slow speed performance.

Sourcing an engine part, for example, could be done in a couple of hours rather than having to wait over 24 hours for one to be flown in from the US or another base. So that alone must be a clincher. An AOG in the middle of a time-sensitive operation could be turned round much faster.

One downside is that Rolls-Royce USA won't be seeing any work with the Boeing bid.
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Spacepope
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:02 am

How many airframes will the initial order be for?
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wedgetail737
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am

Those people looking for MMA jobs...the vast majority of the engineering work will be done in Kent, WA. If you go to the Boeing website for jobs, there are MMA positions available; you just have to read between the lines a little.

Thus far, the modification itself is slated to be accomplished in Wichita.
 
jwenting
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:12 pm

Seems I gauged the political decision making process correctly.
Lockheed has had major orders lately, more than Boeing.

Everyone in fact thought Boeing would get the JSF to keep their military division in work, but Lockheed got it instead because the similar looks between their competitor and the F-22 makes it look like there's part commonality between them.

So now Boeing gets the deal, expect Lockheed to probably get the next one...
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Vorticity
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:37 pm

So now Boeing gets the deal, expect Lockheed to probably get the next one...

It doesn't work that way. There were reasons Lockheed's X-35 was selected as opposed to Boeing's X-32 for JSF. For one, the prototype X-32 that was flown was going to need to have a redesigned tail section. There is no conspiracy to alternate big contracts. The goverment has strict procurement procedures, the people deciding the contract look at the contract, not the politics.

Military contracts are being handed out all the time, in large and small quantities. If contractors really thought the govt. was just going to alternate, they wouldn't bother writing the proposals. All I can say.

(remember both Lockheed Martin and Boeing's names are on F-22, it wasn't that long ago the landscape was completely different)

[Edited 2004-06-15 06:39:32]
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:47 pm

Seems I gauged the political decision making process correctly.

Yes and the 737 has no technical merits to qualify it for MMA duties in the least  Yeah sure Other than your opinion, what is there to say that the 737 is not the superior aircraft? Anything? An illusion that an MMA must be a turboprop? "ooOOoo, Boeing makes that scandolus 767 tanker, and *gasp* they just one military contract! It must be politics!"

The dust has not even settled from this order and you have already concluded that this decision was based on a "one for Boeing, one for LM" tic for tac. Since you are now self-apointed Director of Naval Aquisitions, please impart your towering wisdom as to why Boeing won this order on the basis of political wrangling.

The fact is, none of us have any clue to the capablities of either the 737MMA or the P-3 update. I happen to know one of the admirals involved in this order and, if I remember next time I see him, I will personally ask him if he can provide any insight. I'll quote to the word if possible. You don't know, I don't know, but the fact that you have concluded without doubt that this decision was based on politics disgust me.

Everyone in fact thought Boeing would get the JSF to keep their military division in work, but Lockheed got it instead because the similar looks between their competitor and the F-22 makes it look like there's part commonality between them.

Or maybe because the X-35 flew circles around the X-32. As for everyone, after Boeing redesigned the X-32 it was pretty clear to me who held the advantage.

As for commonality between the F-22 and F-35, which I havn't heard to even be existant, that is a fair boost in Lockheed's position. As is commonality with the C-40 as well as the other 5,000 737s in the world.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:42 pm

Lockheed has had major orders lately, more than Boeing.

What's Lockheed had other than the F-35, considering that Congress trims the number of F/A-22s every chance they can get? Boeing's had the F/A-18E/F, the C-17, the (on hold) KC-767 and the DoD is looking at the YAL-1 and the E-10...seems like things are going more Boeing's way as of late rather than the other way around.
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EMBQA
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:16 pm

It will be a shame to see the old P-3's going away, and I still think the Orion offers a much better platform for ASW. MUCH longer loiter times over a 'target', the option of shutting down engines in flight to save fuel. Tell me if you think a 737 could take the abuse and damage that a EP-3 took a few years ago and still land safely .......????
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
LMP737
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:42 pm

EMBQA:

Yes I do think that the 737 could handle the abuse and damage. Remember the Aloha Airlines 737 that became a convertible.
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EMBQA
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:28 pm

Remember the Aloha Airlines 737 that became a convertible

That was nothing compaired to what happed to that EP-3 near China.....but yes, a 737 is a stout little aircraft..
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
LMP737
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:01 am

Did the EP-3 lose a portion of it's fuselage while pressurized?
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MD-90
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:03 am

Yes I do think that the 737 could handle the abuse and damage. Remember the Aloha Airlines 737 that became a convertible.

If it really WAS a stout little airplane, then it wouldn't have lost its top after being operated in a salt water environment with high cycles!
 
EMBQA
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:47 am

Did the EP-3 lose a portion of it's fuselage while pressurized?

Actually, yes it did.. The aircraft experienced a depressurization after a hole was ripped in the fuselage after the mid air collision with the Chinese fighter.... That along with loosing 2 of its 4 engines..., one propeller so heavly damaged, it just about ripped off the engine and was causing a huge vibration before the crew could get it shut down, the radome was torn off,....and ooh yea, all this while diving at the ocean while it was inverted on its back....!! No wonder LT Osborn won the DFC
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
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N328KF
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F-22/F-35 Commonality

Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:48 am

DfwRevolution sez:

As for commonality between the F-22 and F-35, which I havn't heard to even be existant, that is a fair boost in Lockheed's position. As is commonality with the C-40 as well as the other 5,000 737s in the world.

Actualy, the F-22 and F-35 have quite a bit in common--it's just not stuff you can tell by looking at them.

A) Materials
B) Engines (though the F-35 will have two types of engines available, the F-22 just one)
C) I think much of the software and computer hardware is common.
D) Avionics
E) Ejection seat, etc.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:19 am

C) I think much of the software and computer hardware is common.
D) Avionics


When I talked to both LM and the U.S. Navy, they reiterated several times that the F-35 is a "dumbed" down version of the F-22 avionics, thus suitable for export sales. The F-22 is literally a flying supercomputer with full sensor integration... I was not aware the F-35 had this capability at all.

B) Engines (though the F-35 will have two types of engines available, the F-22 just one)

They have simmilar engines, i.e the Pratt F119 and Pratt F135. They share the same core but not the exact same engine.

In any case, commonality is fair game in terms of making ones product more appealing.
 
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N328KF
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F-22/F-35

Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:29 am

Yes, but the F-35 also has the GE F136, which is derived from the F120. Because of the high sales volume and need to have two suppliers on such a large fleet, GE is involved again, even though they lost the F-22 competition.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
LMP737
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:20 am

EMBQA:

But did the EP-3 become a convertible like the Aloha 737?
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greaser
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:20 am

Dfw, so what are the F-22 no.s now and how many more are in the backlog??
ALso what is the CURRENT F-35A/B/C (US only) Order Backlog?
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:05 am

The F-22 is in squadron force now. Not sure how many that means at the moment. Total requested numbers are around 350, but to call that 'backlog' would be premature. It's unknown how many F-22s will wind up being produced.

The F-35 has no backlog -- it has not been approved for production yet. Estimated total production for all parties would be 3000-4000. More even?
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
EMBQA
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:15 am

But did the EP-3 become a convertible like the Aloha 737?

Oh, we can go around and around on this... Ok, you win, the 737 is a better choice because it had a structural failure. But answer me this...Where is that Aloha 737 now...? its was scrapped.....!! Where is that EP-3 now...??? Back in the air patroling the skies..!! Sorry, I'll take the P-3 any day of the week, and I know the AC's out there would agree...!!!
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Vorticity
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:28 am

I'm going to have to venture a guess that the Navy people that chose Boeing for the MMA know what they want/need more than anyone else. They had the prosposals, we can only guess at the content of them.
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
jmets18
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:04 am

as other posters have said, contracts come and go all of the time. contracts for aircraft are much more publisized though. and in terms of which company (boeing or lockheed) is winning more, it's tuff to say. money wise, lockheed is a sick amount in front of boeing. the jsf program itself takes the cake (over 250 billion).
 
Vorticity
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RE: Boeing Wins MMA

Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:37 pm

It's kinda apples and oranges, Lockheed and Boeing both have vast groups that aren't military, but, here is the financial breakdown for 2003-2001.

Lockheed - Martin
2003: Revenue = 31.8 billion, Net Earnings = 1.1 billion
2002: Revenue = 26.5 billion, Net Earnings = 0.5 billion
2001: Revenue = 24.0 billion, Net Earnings = -1.0 billion (loss)

Boeing
2003: Revenue = 50.5 billion, Net Earnings = 0.7 billion
2002: Revenue = 54.0 billion, Net Earnings = 2.3 billion
2001: Revenue = 58.2 billion, Net Earnings = 2.8 billion
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...

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