Russophile
Topic Author
Posts: 1304
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:22 am

US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:21 am

From Pravda.ru website and widely reported elsewhere (except the airliners.net military aviation forums -- me wonders why haha) and posted below inline with Pravda.ru copyright useage

-------

The American military amazed Moscow and the Russian media by saying that Russian-made fighter planes were superior to their American equivalents. How can these flattering revelations be explained?

General Hal M. Hornburg told USA Today that India's Sukhoi Su-30 MKI multi-role fighters have been successful against F-15 C/D Eagle aircraft in mock combat. In fact, the Indians won 90% of the mock combat missions.

USA Today reported: We may not be as far ahead of the rest of the world as we thought we were, said Gen. Hal Hornburg, the chief of the Air Combat Command, which oversees U.S. fighter and bomber wings...The F-15Cs are the Air Force's primary air superiority aircraft...[and] the results of the exercise [were] wake up call.

The Inside the Air Force official newsletter also discussed the "Russian victory," and reported even more details. F-15 C/D Eagle fighters were pitted against not only Su-30 MKI fighters but also MiG-27s, MiG-29s, and even the older MiG-21 Bisons, which also performed well. The fighters not only defeated the F-15s but the French-made Mirage-2000 as well. According to the Washington ProFile Web site, the results of the exercises surprised the American pilots.

Meanwhile, Russian military experts and aircraft designers did not seem surprised by these victories. The Sukhoi general designer, Mikhail Simonov, has repeatedly told RIA Novosti and other news agencies the Su-27 Flanker and the Su-30 MKI, a modified version of the Flanker, which are now in service in the Indian Air Force, were developed in the 1980s in response to the F-15 Eagle. Moreover, Soviet designers had stipulated far superior specifications. Consequently, Russian experts were not particularly surprised that the performance of the fighters matched their specifications.

Why did an American general publicly admit this fact four months after the exercises?

India's Su-30 MKI fighters and F-15 C/D Eagles from Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska, engaged in mock combat exercises in February 2004. However, no one mentioned that India won three of the four exercises at the time.

Russian fighters first defeated their US rivals when Sukhoi and MiG fighters had just started being shown at international aerospace shows in the early 1990s. At that time, several Su-27 fighters, under the command of Maj.-Gen. Alexander Kharchevsky, the head of the Lipetsk center for retraining air force pilots, went to Canada to demonstrate their impressive potential. (President Vladimir Putin flew in a Su-27 to Chechnya.)

Instead of missiles and artillery shells, Russian and American fighter planes used aerial cameras to record their mock air-to-air battles. American fighters were disappointed to learn the results of exercise - their cameras had not captured any Su-27s. The Russians, however, had filmed their rivals' vulnerable points from just about every angle.

Russian pilots owed their impressive success to the Su-27's spectacular performance and its substantial thrust-to-weight ratio. The fighter's unsurpassed performance has already become well known throughout the world because no other fighter (except MiG fighters) can execute such impressive stunts as Pugachev's Cobra and others.

The F-15, the F-16 and the F-18 have wide turning radii. Russian fighters, on the other hand, can turn on a dime by merely switch on their afterburners.

Apart from in Canada, MiG-29 fighters also fought mock air battles with South Africa's Mirage-2000s. Again, the Russia planes defeated their enemies.

Chief designer Arkady Slobodskoi, the supervisor of the MiG-29 program, said, "if our plane is within range of an opponent and has a direct shot, the enemy can be considered destroyed. It only takes 5-6 machine gun bursts."

The United States, which is aware of the impressive combat potential of Russian fighters, had even purchased a squadron of MiG-29s from Moldova after the Soviet Union disintegrated. (That squadron was deployed at an airfield near Chisinau.) Germany, which had obtained a number of MiG-29s after reunification, helped repair the Moldovan fighters. Both Germany and the United States now use these aircraft to train their pilots, so that the pilots can cope with the 7,000 Russian fighters in the world. Britain's Military Balance magazine estimated that India had more than 500 Russian-made fighters. It was therefore not surprising that Indian pilots could defeat their American rivals, despite the U.S. Air Force's intensive combat-training programs.

On the other hand, American pilots have not confronted any serious adversaries for a long time. The U.S. Air Force dominated the skies over Yugoslavia in 1999 and in Iraq in 1991 and 2003. Iraqi planes were grounded during both campaigns. Therefore, mock combat is the only way to amass experience.

The long standing American Air Force mentality prevents its pilots from confronting their Russian counterparts because any possible setback would be detrimental to morale. An American Air Force pilot must be convinced that he can and must defeat the former "theoretical enemy." At the same time, these problems do not exist for mock combat exercises against Indian pilots because any defeats can be explained by inadequate training.

Why did the United States inform the world about its setbacks? Neither Russian, nor U.S. generals like to do this.

The explanation lies on the surface: The U.S. Congress discusses defense spending for the next fiscal year every June and therefore, top American military officials started talking about events in February 2004 now.

--------

As I have said elsewhere, the rest of the world knows that the Russians produce the best of the best in terms of air fighters, but the US military is only just now realising this? Big grin
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:35 am

Open your eyes and look down through the threads Russophile. If you did, you would know all about the politics behind the affair (ie. the USAF's attempts to sell the F-22 to politicians), as well as the staged and rather unrealistic scenarios in which the exercises took place. Hell, the Su-30MKI didn't even take part in the exercises. Don't get me wrong, it's an excellent fighter, but what makes it so in many ways are the parts of it that aren't Russian.

"As I have said elsewhere, the rest of the world knows that the Russians produce the best of the best in terms of air fighters,"

That kind of attitude is the last thing the CIS aerospace industry needs.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:16 am

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/military/read.main/21452/

Double Post.

I think your answer lies in one word Money.

Basicly the USAF is trying to get F-22 money secured.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
IndianGuy
Posts: 3126
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 3:14 pm

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:24 pm

Russophile: U are an idiot. There is no way that the Russians can beat America in any war, air or ground! Its just no possible. America is unbeatable!!


Basicly the USAF is trying to get F-22 money secured.

Couldnt have said it better. The USAF is unbeatable and this is only a tactic to secur emore funding.

 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:32 pm

Roy, I am trying to decide if you are being sarcastic or not.

But you don't get new airplanes by claiming your current ones are the best in the world!
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:09 pm

With you Roy, it is hard to tell sometimes.

But usually not on this forum.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
IndianFlyboy
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 6:58 pm

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:37 pm

General Hal M. Hornburg told USA Today that India's Sukhoi Su-30 MKI multi-role fighters have been successful against F-15 C/D Eagle aircraft in mock combat. In fact, the Indians won 90% of the mock combat missions.

When is everyone finally going to figure out that India did not field the Su 30 MKI in Cope Thunder , they were the Su 30 K's/MK1's .


The Su 30 MKI has more design and performance characteristics similar to the Su 37 while not exactly the same and will be comparable to the F 22 , exactly what the USAF generals are trying to showcase and get the funding they want.

Regards
 
IndianGuy
Posts: 3126
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 3:14 pm

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 03, 2004 8:46 pm

Even if enough MKI's were around i doubt if the Indian Govt would allow the IAF to parade the true capability. I am sure all the aircraft that participated , US as well as Indian, were defanged befiore being sent out.

-Roy
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 03, 2004 8:59 pm

I understand that the US 15's simulated earlier versions of the Sidewinder missiles, not the Aim9X that is now fielded with the 21TFS.

I understand the same is true of the BFR missile loads.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:25 pm

" i doubt if the Indian Govt would allow the IAF to parade the true capability. "

Yet the USAF would parade its true capability, huh?

P.S. There is nothing comparable to the F-22, not even the Su-30MKI.

LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:55 pm

I personally think Russian helicopters and transport planes are better, but fighters? No I don´t think so...
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:08 pm

Welll I will admit that you can do far worse then a Mil helicopter. But western designs do tend to be more efficent.

Didn't the Swedish military a few years back, conduct a fly off between an Mi-28 and an AH-64 for a attack helicopter contract?

I don't think any where ordered, but would be curious to hear about the results.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Contact_tower
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:05 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sun Jul 04, 2004 6:14 pm

"Didn't the Swedish military a few years back, conduct a fly off between an Mi-28 and an AH-64 for a attack helicopter contract?"

Correct!
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sun Jul 04, 2004 6:23 pm

And???

How did it turn out????

Enquiring minds want to know.

Particularly this one, since my 2nd unit in Germany when I was in the Army flew Apaches.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
agill
Posts: 939
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:49 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sun Jul 04, 2004 7:47 pm

L-188: I think the Mi-28 pretty much owned the Apache if I remember correctly. Was a few years ago. Someone else might remember better.
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sun Jul 04, 2004 8:28 pm

Well, I remember hearing comments about how the US crew had manuals for everything, and the Russian crew just took theirs apart.

Not sure if that is really a comment on the aircraft though.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
agill
Posts: 939
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:49 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sun Jul 04, 2004 9:15 pm

L-188: Remember a story about the russains firing an AK47 into the windscreen as an answer to how durable the helicopter was, sounds a bit dramatic though hehe. Someone else probably know the whole story about that.
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sun Jul 04, 2004 9:26 pm

Hmmm, didn't hear that one.

I however did witness a line of Apaches being led home by an OH-58.

The reason, There was 3 inches of new snow on the ground, so there was no contrast for the IR gear on the Apache to see anything. So they had to follow the OH-58, with a pilot wearing a 2500 dollar set of NVG light intensifying gogles home.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Mon Jul 05, 2004 2:20 am

Even if we'll assume that Su-30 and MiG 29 are superior to their western counterparts, the next generation of the US fighters simply leaves Russia with nothing. (I am talking mainly about avionics)
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
jutes85
Posts: 1854
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:50 pm

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Mon Jul 05, 2004 3:25 am

I'm sure that if Russia would want to be involved in a war offensive, like the US has for the past 15 years, they can get their technology up to par, they just need money.

Don't under estimate the Russians.
nothing
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8547
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:32 am

Don't under estimate the Russians.

I think I will underestimate the Russians in this case. Equipment is only half the battle... well trained and experienced pilots are required to opperate these contraptions. Terrific if an Mi-28 can pull circles around an Apache, but if the crew can't find the laser targeting toggle they might as well take it apart and use the fuel tank to brew vodka.
 
IndianFlyboy
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 6:58 pm

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Mon Jul 05, 2004 5:07 pm

P.S. There is nothing comparable to the F-22, not even the Su-30MKI.


LY 744 , not wanting to get into and argument out here , but on what grounds ? Performance , avionics , maneuverability which one ? National pride is one thing , but on a forum of this nature , please back up your comments with some documentation . The F 22 may indeed be superior to the Su 30 MKI or the Su 37 I really dont deny that , but some documentation or a comparison would help.

Even if we'll assume that Su-30 and MiG 29 are superior to their western counterparts, the next generation of the US fighters simply leaves Russia with nothing. (I am talking mainly about avionics)

LY7E7 , US and western avionics are indeed superior to their Russian counterparts , but taking the Su 30 MKI for example , none of the avionics is russian , with the exception of the radar . All mission computers are a mix and match of French , Israeli and Indian avionics. This has been the ongoing trend for the last couple of purchases.

Regards

 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:48 pm

Even in fighter combat, training and doctrine are at least as important in deciding who wins as technology is. It is hard to get a good comparison when both sides use different training techniques and strategies. That is how the Israelis have won every single air war they have fought. In World War II, the Germans lost the air war in the West once they could not longer afford the fuel to train their pilots - they never even came close to running out of planes. Later in Korea, the Mig-15 and the F-86 were virtually equal. Yet the US did much better than their opponents because of their training and leadership. The US also managed to turn around its air-to-air kill ration in Vietnam by improving training.

The more significant finding in the latest exercises may be that some airforces have managed to at least equal the US in training and doctrine. The Su-30 as an airframe/engine combination probably is superior to the F-15, considering they were designed later and with the F-15 in mind. If you take into account superior USAF avionics and weapons, my guess is the advantage goes back to the F-15. But this is immaterial. In a situation this closely matched, it is how the planes are used that counts the most.

In the absence of a MAJOR technical advantage for one side such as stealth, technology does not decide the outcome of battles. Training and leadership do. Even where there is a major technical advantage for one side, it is often wasted by poor command decisions (remember Hitler's obsession with the jet bomber, at the expense of fighters?) or is irrelevant to the situation at hand (remember Vietnam?).

IN SHORT..... Technology is not and will never be as important as people in war. Or in any other part of life, for that matter. The human factor is the decisive factor.
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5807
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:18 am

BTW, according to AvWeek, USAF now has 51 F-22s ordered, with 22 in the order for FY2004. The way that supply chain works, that means the parts and such have long since been in the pipeline. In any case, that's enough F-22s to give any other power a major headache.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
AUAE
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 4:41 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:10 pm

Good posts on this one guys,

I am thinking along these lines, there are several very very good Russian fighters that have come out in the past 15 years. I think the Mig-29 and F-15 could match up fairly even. I think the F-16 can still give most modern fighters a good run. But F-16's and F-15s are damn old, and there is no way they can compare to newer Sukhoi aircraft in performance. I would say that in the old days, the Russians made up the performance difference with missile technology. Don't know how they fare today, but Russian missiles were very very good.

Today, I think the F-22 represents top tier performance and superiority. It may not be the best in close in fighting, but it is meant to gain surperiority well before that happens. It avionics / radar / jamming suite is the best in the world. I would like to see it up against the best. I think it would win hands down.

Just my $.02,

Shawn
Air transport is just a glorified bus operation. -Michael O'Leary, Ryanair's chief executive
 
LMP737
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:55 am

Indianflyboy:

Don't take this the wrong way but I think you are guilty of the same thing you say LY744 is guilty of. I belive it was you who said "The later generations the Su 30/35/37 would win hands down against the F 22 as well." Do you have anyting to back this up?
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
IndianFlyboy
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 6:58 pm

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:38 pm

Hi LMP737,

Not taking it the wrong way at all. In fact I did not mean to be rude or sarcastic to LY 744 in any way. If you read that post I had made I was very specifically talking about the dog fighting capabilities of the Russian aircrafts versus the western types, nothing else at all.This was exactly my question to LY 744 , again no disrespect intended at all.
My statement for the others "When it comes to a dog fight the Flanker series would win hands down over most of the western types.The F 22 would probably be the only one which can even compete.The later generations the Su 30/35/37 would win hands down against the F 22 as well. However it is hard to compare to aircrafts designed with completely different ideologies.".

In its current version the Su 37 has virtually no competition when it comes to dog fights , however the F 22 as and when it enters service will have similar capabilities.But that would not stop the Sukhoi development program , for example the Su 47 Berkut is even more maneuvarable than the Su 37 , it will be a matter of time till an western equivalent came up.

Hope I managed to clarifiy this ....

Regards
 
nealcg
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 1:16 pm

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:40 am

Not wanting to totally dive into this but isn't the Sukoi to F22 comparison rather pointless. The F22 is designed for Air Superiority, not dog fighting. The SUKOI could still probably out "dogfight" the F-22 but with a RCS the size of a barn the Sukoi would be snuffed out fairly quickly by the Stealth enhanced F-22 at long range.

Air Superiority does not mean fighting fair.
F-22 = Stealth+Super Cruise+Avionics and finally manuverability

The article above was a ploy at more funding. It's been done since the cold war. Past examples would be:
Bomber Gap=more B-52s
Misslle Gap=More MinuteMen IIIs
MIG-25=New fighter (F-15)
T-80=M1A1

Cheers
REMEMBER...NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO...THERE YOU ARE !!
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:49 am

Stealth technology has passed its peak usefulness already. Passive radar and other sophisticated technologies are already beginning to reduce its relevance.

So it´s quite conceivable that the F-22´s emphasis on stealth will come to the point of being a burden rather than an asset compared to other fighters, even if that point may still be a decade away.
 
LMP737
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:35 am

Klaus:

How many countries have "passive radar" and "other sophisticated technologies"? When you look at the air-air and surface-air systems in use today they still rely on the "old-fashioned" means of target detection. I'm also pretty sure that if you were to ask a pilot if he wanted to go into a target area with a extensive air defense network in a stealthy or non-stealthy aircraft I suspect the stealthy aircraft would be the choice.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8547
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:40 am

Passive radar and other sophisticated technologies are already beginning to reduce its relevance.

I'd beg to differ. Yes passive radar does slightly diminish the importance of stealth, but it is far from making air combat equal between stealth and non-stealth aircraft. By the time these technologies mature to the point where a radar unit in the field can aquire, track, and target a stealth aircraft UCAVs will dominate the scene anyway.

When stealth technology began, it was intended to delay the point radar could aquire an aircraft until the last possible moment. When the A-12 was being designed, it was not intended to be "invisible" but rather difficult to aquire at a range less than 10 miles. This differs from an A-6 which could be aquired at 90 miles. Ditto for the B-1B. Invisibility is great, low profile is still acceptable... either way, these aircraft have a distinct advantage.

So it´s quite conceivable that the F-22´s emphasis on stealth will come to the point of being a burden rather than an asset compared to other fighters, even if that point may still be a decade away.

Well only from a cost standpoint, the combat value of stealth might not justify the huge development and unit cost. Enter F-35
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:35 pm

Nealcg summed up what these comments amount to pretty nicely.

Stealth is not the end-all be all of warfare.

It is just technology designed to create tactics that will help overcome technologoy

Same applies to that passive radar jive.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:10 pm

Passive radar and other sophisticated technologies are already beginning to reduce its relevance.
-------

As mentioned before, these systems are expensive. It is very difficult to cover a large area with them and will be for some time. They can also be destroyed by standoff munitions, low-flying cruise missiles, commandos, and all sorts of other stuff. They also require very highly trained and experienced operators, and require a high flow of complex parts to maintain.

They are also vulnerable to EMP attack, and you no longer need to go nuclear to use EMP. The US has conventional EMP bombs capable of destroying all the electronics in a large area, and is rumored to have used this tech for the first time to destroy Iraqi air defenses at the start of the war. You do not even need to know exactly where the defense system is to target it.

It is not hard to imagine that EMP could be very usefull to the US's enemies, since the US relies on electronics so much.

Stealth is not obsolete. It is a very important western advantage and will remain so for a long time. Yet like any technology, it is not as important as the people who operate it. It is people who fight and ultimately decide the outcome of wars. The Iraqis had tanks equivelent to the M1 in the first gulf war, and artillery superior to our own. Those tanks and guns are now wrecked in the desert. Even in purely tank on tank battles, they got crushed because of superior US training and leadership. The same could happen to us someday if we start thinking that technology can guarantee victory.
 
agill
Posts: 939
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:49 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:52 pm

Cloudy: The export version of T-72 eqivalent to M1???
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:09 pm

The Iraqis had tanks equivalent to the M1 in the first gulf war, and artillery superior to our own

The artillery I can believe since they where smart enough to by Gerald Bull designs (And the absolute dismal failure of Canada to buy howitzers from a native son is noted also), but what armor did Iraq have that was superior to the US?


If Memory Serves the 120mm on the M1A1 significantly outranged the 125 on the T-72's. So they where knocked out before they could even get into firing range. And the fact that if you hit a T-72 in the right spot, the turret pops off like a champage cork.....
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:28 am

One of the points of passive radar is that it´s dirt cheap compared to conventional radar. It is mainly implemented through intelligent software; Its hardware components are not particularly complex and almost undetectable. It´s not ready for deployment, as far as I know, but promising demonstrations have been made.

It´s not to say "stealth" technology would ever become obsolete overnight. But the absolute trust in it being a huge advantage forever is certainly misplaced. It will always be a tradeoff between financial cost and engineering sacrifices and the benefit it can actually bring to the table in return. That tradeoff might not remain positive for all time.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8547
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:11 am

But the absolute trust in it being a huge advantage forever is certainly misplaced. It will always be a tradeoff between financial cost and engineering sacrifices and the benefit it can actually bring to the table in return. That tradeoff might not remain positive for all time.

I'll agree with that, heck I think this has been proven with the B-2 and F-22. Look at the number of frames expected versus the number that entered service.
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:07 pm

Exactly you have a fixed cost for the development of the particular weapons system, that has to be spread over a number of airframes. Reduce the planned number that will be purchased and you now have fewer frames to spread that fixed cost around.

Hence, more expensive aircraft, so you cut back on the number ordered, and then aircraft get more expense, so again you cut back on the number you order, which causes the aircraft ...............................
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
DC3CV3407AC727
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:23 pm

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:27 pm

i agree sounds like a ploy to secure funding for the F22,but dont discount the quality of the Sukhoi,or the Mig,though it almost always comes down to the skills of the warrior in the cockpit ,when the fangs are bared.I think there is still a lot of fight left in the Eagle,and the Hornet.
the rumble of round engines is like music to me,likewise the thunder of thr JT8D
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority

Wed Jul 21, 2004 4:37 am

And the fact that if you hit a T-72 in the right spot, the turret pops off like a champage cork.....

Any videos of that?

B4e-Forever New Frontiers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: KarelXWB and 20 guests