eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:39 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/21/nfarn21.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/07/21/ixhome.html

Um....precision weapon?....missing the world's largest airshow in broad daylight by 5 miles??

Whoops!
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:43 pm

Hehe - probably because the official US Government atlas (there is only one) was being used that day to demonstrate to a highly placed official that Iraq isn't the one 90 miles south of Key West - no George, that's the OTHER Axis of Evil.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
voodoo
Posts: 1959
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 12:14 am

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:54 pm

No I think it was because there was a wedding party going on in Blackbushe  Nuts
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
DoorsToManual
Posts: 1453
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2003 12:28 am

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:21 pm

Also see following thread:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1658919/

I was there - very disappointing & slightly worrying. The F-117 flyby was fantastic though.



 
Blackbird1331
Posts: 1740
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:47 am

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:12 pm

Now you know why I joined the navy.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:38 pm

more likely some ATC guy wanted to play a practical joke on either the organisers or the USAF...

Those aircraft are under positive control.
I wish I were flying
 
N754PR
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 10:03 pm

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:53 pm

Dear oh dear oh dear.......

Now that does make you worried!
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
sleak76
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:17 pm

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:02 pm

Hardly surprising!

Especially reading the news last month about that NW landing at an AFB instead of a commecial airport - also in broad daylight.
'Place your ad here'. Only $9.95 per post made.
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:09 pm

Sleak76...

Kuwait of all nation-states should know how precision works. BTW...when you want to criticize somebody, especially a pilot, walk a mile in his or her boots, or fly a couple hours in their seat.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
N754PR
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 10:03 pm

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:34 pm

Miamiair,

Are you saying that its not wrong or bad for this to have happened? Its not the 1st, 2nd or 3rd time this has happened with US civil and Military aircraft.
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8103
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:52 pm

Miamiair, get it together. This is a perfect example of why the supposedly hi tech invasion of Iraq has killed tens of thousands of civilians. You should be defending critics of this latest incident, not defending the pilot who was responsible.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
BUFjets
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 9:27 pm

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:57 pm

Cederjet- keep you propaganda out of this forum
 
elwood64151
Posts: 2410
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 10:22 am

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:11 pm

Well, gee. USAF flight crews have been complaining for years that they're not getting enough training time.

Maybe this is an indication that they are right???



By the way, JGPH1A, how's that latest copy of "Soldier of Surrender: The Official Magazine of the French Military"? I hear it's got a great "how-to" article on making a white flag from boxer shorts, assuming they aren't soiled at the sight of the enemy...

(Sorry to any Legionaires who may have been offended by that remark. You guys are incredible!)

Jwenting:

It's amazing how everyone ignored you. I don't know about European airshows, but here in the US, it's just as you describe: Aircraft follow the direct instructions of local controllers, period. They don't get to set their own routes.

This is a perfect example of why the supposedly hi tech invasion of Iraq has killed tens of thousands of civilians.

By who's counting?!?! Even Amnesty International, the most respected by vehemently anti-war group in the world, estimates civilian casualties before the Official End of Combat Operations at around 3,000. Which, considering the fact that we successfully occupied a WHOLE COUNTRY, is remarkable in history for how low those casualty rates are. By the way, we've found a single mass-grave area (really dozens of mass graves in one location) that has 100 times that number of bodies in it...

You should be defending critics of this latest incident, not defending the pilot who was responsible.

What possible responsibility does he have to defend people he disagrees with, other than their right to speak their minds?



Look, none of us were there. We don't know what happened. The Air Force is looking into it, as are the Brits I am sure.

We'll see what the official report says.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
steve7e7
Posts: 435
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 11:33 pm

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:21 pm

I can hardly see how it could be the crew's fault.

ATC maintain responsibility for all aircraft movements in the area.Full Stop.

The Captain is reliant on ATC to vector him to his destination whilst maintaining separation from other aircraft.Full Stop.

As Jwenting said...it is more likely that someone has had a laugh at the poor crew's expense.

Steve.
 
laddb
Posts: 218
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 3:24 am

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:55 pm

I'd like to add one point. Whenever there is a US military mistake, be it a bomb missing its target, an aircraft crashing, etc. everyone acts like it happens all the time. Thing is, the US military is doing so much more than anyone else. They fly the most sorties, drop the most bombs, etc. Of course they are going to have higher numbers of mistakes. But per operation, sorite, or whatever, I'd be willing to bet they are above average.
 
sulman
Posts: 1963
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:09 am

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:19 pm

How on earth did this thread end up being politicised? What a load of bollocks. The crew quite possibly got disorientated and simply overlooked the field. England is a funny old place like that - most of it looks the same from the air, especially at lower levels, travelling at four miles a minute.
It takes a big man to admit they are wrong, and I am not a big man.
 
LMP737
Posts: 4923
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:06 am

If one does a little research one would find that EVERY air force in the world has had a couple "Oh s*#ts" in their long and illustrious career.

Cedarjet:

Please back up your claims with something other than your "word".

JGPH1A:

Remember that Mirage 2000 crew that was shotdown over Bosnia? Guess who the French TRAP team had to hitch a ride with? That's right a USAF Pave Low. Evidently the French military helicopters did not even have the capability to get lost at night and in bad weather.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:10 am

The pilot was probably using VFR/airshow protocols due to low altitude, and the distance between airfields was around 5 miles.

There are airports bigger than 5 miles across.

It's an embarassing mistake, but then again it was a pilot using visual flight rules over unfamiliar territory and NOT a GPS precision operation. Which a bombing run would be. ATC would not be responsible for every turn of the display but would just be responsible for bringing the aircraft to the area and then tracking it out of the display area again.

The Farnborough display box itself will be considerably bigger than five miles across, as you can't turn stuff like A346s or 744s on a sixpence.

[Edited 2004-07-21 17:11:25]
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
VC-10
Posts: 3546
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 1999 11:34 am

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:51 am

He came over my house twice. I should imagine once he had called airfield in sight ATC left him to it.

I expect once he had set up on his chosen 'field he was locked into it as I understand a B-52 handles like an oil super-tanker

 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:33 pm

B-52s can turn quite tightly if they have to.
Size is little indication for agility...

I've seen the An-225 turn inside the airfield perimeter at le Bourget.
Friend has seen a 744 turn inside the airfield perimeter (or close to) at Duxford.

No, I guess someone played a practical joke on them and set them up on a short visual final to the wrong airport deliberately.
I wish I were flying
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:12 pm

No, I guess someone played a practical joke on them and set them up on a short visual final to the wrong airport deliberately.

And guaranteed themselves all kinds of trouble?

That is just ridiculous. Air traffic controllers don't play 'jokes' on pilots. Any controller who did would never see inside a tower again and would probably wind up in court.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:52 pm

Noone's ever find out it was deliberate.
Read all the kids here: "stupid Yank can't find the correct runway".

The controller in question is a civilian, aircraft is a foreign military aircraft.
Bound to be comms problems, then handoff to a controller that they're not normally talking to a lot.
At the least they can claim the pilot got confused and get off lightly.
I wish I were flying
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:04 pm

The British and Americans both speak English....and British controllers are constantly handling US military traffic.

As this happened in civil air space over an airfield an investigation is definitely going to happen. No controller would ever be as stupid as to potentially endanger lives and aircraft for some sick kind of joke.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Tasha
Posts: 537
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:34 pm

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:39 pm

"Miamiair, get it together. This is a perfect example of why the supposedly hi tech invasion of Iraq has killed tens of thousands of civilians. You should be defending critics of this latest incident, not defending the pilot who was responsible"

I hate to tell you this Cederjet, but there is no such thing as a clean war. And "tens of thousands of civilians"... where do you get your information, ahhh don't tell me I know: Osama Bin Laden.
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:57 pm

Have all the B-52's received GPS yet? I know that none of them can carry JDAMs internally.

I don't believe the SLEP has been completed on all the aircraft, to give them GPS.

BTW: The RAF shouldn't talk they recently take out a light post with a Jaguar.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
Contact_tower
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:05 am

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:17 pm

The notion that F'boro ATC played a "joke" on the crew is insulting, and the idea that they are not used to foreign military traffic shows how little you know about ATC and control of civilian vs military traffic Jwenting!!!

I suggest that F'boro's controllers probably work more diverse traffic then most other units in the world, after all the show are an annual event!

But then agian, you never think anyhing coming from the good old US of A can be flawed, do you Jwenting.........

..............must be the controllers fault.......
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:41 pm

And the notion that the BUFF's crew were a bunch of morons tooling around in a multimillion dollar aircraft is insulting/

I suggest that those crews probably have to work with as diverse a collection of ATCs as many professional airline pilots. Mind you, some hack First Lieutenant just rated in the B-52 isn't going to be performing at an airshow, rather a pilot who has been in the USAF for a while and who's proven his capability. After all, they may have to do dynamic displays at a large number of airshows across the globe.

But then again, some of you always think that anything coming from the good old US of A must be flawed..........

..............must be the crew's fault.......

By the by, Farnborough Air Show is hardly annual - once every two years.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
LMP737
Posts: 4923
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:25 am

While I do not believe that ATC was playing a joke on the BUFF crew I suspect there might have been some miscommunication. After all the we Americans and the British are separated by a common language.

Naturally there will be an inquiry on both sides of the Atlantic. My guess is that the B-52 crew will get some remedial navigation training. That along with getting teased unmercifully by their fellow BUFF crews. There might be even some call sign changes.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:37 pm

I suggest that F'boro's controllers probably work more diverse traffic then most other units in the world, after all the show are an annual event!

Very diverse, yes, but the one event that tops all others in the world starts in four days. And they've got something especially big to celebrate this year.



It doesn't seem too implausible that they simply messed up. Airliners have been landing at the wrong airport since powered flight began. With a B-52 you have to be especially careful, though. It wouldn't be that hard to land at an airport that it might not be able to fly out of again.
 
f4wso
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:18 pm

An instrument flying axiom is one peek is worth a thousand crosschecks. However, seeing a runway can cause the mind to stop cross checking instruments. It is doubtful that the navigators sitting downstairs could be of much help if the pilot goes visual on the wrong runway. I don't know if there was any moving map onboard like a glass cockpit would have. Again, seeing a runway in the big picture cuts down looking inside the plane. Decoys and camouflage are meant to induce that split second doubt to generate a big miss distance. Lots of runways in a small area, crowds and display areas not able to be seen from low altitude a few miles away, and unfamiliarity with local area can lead to such an incident. this also points out the need avoid complacency and do a good area study. Thank goodness that there was no midair with traffic in the pattern at the other airfield.

Three incidents I am familiar with:
I heard about but didn't witness the arrival of the first F-15 four-ship flight at Bitburg. A big ceremony was to ensue upon arrival. Flight lead drops out of the clouds, picks up the runway, and lands at...Spangdahlem Air Base across the valley. All of the soon to be displaced F-4 navigators got a big laugh out of that one. The pilots on the wing flying fingertip formation are focused on maintaining position and not able to cross check the navigation. The Thunderbird accident is a tragic example of this.

I was at the Dayton Air Fair when the Thunderbirds with their new F-16s made the "Pass in Review" to the wrong parallel runway.

Last year, while holding short of the left runway in instrument conditions, a King Air doing a VOR approach to the right lands on the left. The VOR course was not directly aligned and the left runway was the first visual. Coming out of the clouds at minimums and seeing a runway can again breed complacency. It is essential to look for the pitfalls. Thanks to the controller that held us short.
Gary
Cottage Grove, MN
Seeking an honest week's pay for an honest day's work
 
Duce50Boom
Posts: 723
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 8:03 am

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:15 pm

Great post, F4wso. Without kissing ass, I think your poss explanation, along with and maybe compounded by LMP737's are the best explanations so far. It makes the most sense.

I sat in a BUFF at Diego Garcia last spring. No glass up top or in the NAV's space. Just a sh**load of dials, gauges, EVS screens, and some radar scopes, but no moving map display.
 
JetMechMD80
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:27 pm

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:49 pm

From a former ground pounder, my hat is off to the USAF, they may have missed Farnborough, but when the chips were on the line, they found Bagdad, and In my book, thats all that counts!!  Smile
"I get along great with nobody"~ Billy Idol
 
Duce50Boom
Posts: 723
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 8:03 am

Email From The Farnborough B-52 Pilot

Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:11 pm

I just got an email from the Aircraft commander of the B-52 in question. He asked if I could post it for him. Here it is;

"I'm the pilot who flew the B-52 over Farnborough and "missed" the airfield. We just got back from England yesterday. I have been searching the internet for stuff about us over there and found this message board (among other things). I had no idea anyone would be that interested in it. Anyway, this is what really happened. Prior to flying, we were briefed that we would be able to navigate on our own to the airfield and were given a time to be there...no big deal. Our Navigator had a great plan that would have had us directly over the field within 5 seconds of our briefed time (naturally). However, once
we started talking to the Farnborough radar controller, he began to vector us around his airspace in order to sequence us in for our pass, something that was NEVER briefed to us. Once the controller was ready, he informed us that he was bringing us in for our pass and we pushed up the airspeed to our briefed "high-speed" flyby speed of 350 KIAS. At that airspeed the B-52 has a normal standard turn radius of about 3.5 - 4 miles. Having heard the controller's side of the story, he didn't anticipate this large turn radius. Consequently, when he attempted to line us up on the runway (or turn us on to final) it was too late and our large turn radius rolled us out well away from the field (it just happened to be near that other airfield...which we saw and turned to avoid). I don't blame the controller, he just didn't expect us to make such a wide turn. Anyway, that's what happened. Thanks in advance.

*** * *****, Capt, USAF

I've ran into this kind of problem before. About 2 weeks before 9/11, I did a flyover of the AF academy stadium during parents weekend (AF got their a** handed to them by OU 44-3). We were in holding about 5-6k AGL with the AFA ATC really doing nothing except jamming the freq and telling us when to make the approach. They must've been used to working non-heavies because they wanted us to descend 5000 feet in about 45 seconds and make a 180 in 1 mile. Needless to say, I'm sure you could sort of see a KC-10 if you were in the stadium, but you could be forgiven thinking it was just traffic going into Colorado Springs intl/Peterson AFB.

I checked out the global mil email address, and the pilot's name came up under one of the bomb squadrons from Minot. So as far as I can tell, and the way he was talking in other parts of the email, I'd say this dude is genuine. Hope this solves what happened.
 
bennett123
Posts: 7527
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough

Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:13 am

Nice to find out what really happened.

The important points are firstly that no one got hurt and that secondly that lessons have been learnt.

On a lighter notes two true stories;

1. In the late 1960's (1968 I think) a Boeing B707 (TWA?) heading for London Heathrow landed at RAF Northolt, which is on the same flight path, but 4 miles early. Apparently his brakes really glowed because the runway at Northolt is rather short.

2. In 1984, an RAF F4 managed to shoot down an RAF Jaguar GR1 on an exersize in Germany.

The moral of the story is that everyone screws up sometimes, and that so long as there are no body bags, everyone can have a good laugh at it afterwards.
 
KiwiNanday
Posts: 1334
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:44 am

RE: Usaf B-52 Accidentally Misses Farnborough

Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:32 pm

Can we stop pointing fingers and saying its because the American military is sh|t, or that an ATC played a prank... it was a mistake, plain and simple! And Duce has already verified that for us... so can we please not add anymore posts to this needles thread!

[Edited 2004-08-17 06:35:13]
Silly Islamic extremists, it's just a cartoon!

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