mirage
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C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:34 am

Sorry but I can't remember now and need to know, what's the name of that kind of approach to an airfiled made at around 2000ft and after passing the threshold the plane dives into the runway.

thanks
Luis
 
PPGMD
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:50 am

...approach to an airfiled made at around 2000ft and after passing the threshold the plane dives into the runway.

A crash?!?
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
mirage
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:00 am

No pal, it was made at Vietnam to avoid enemy fire close to the air base, recently it was made also in Europe Balkans region conflits.

Luis
 
PPGMD
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:20 am

I would probably reword it

...approach to an airfiled made at around 2000ft and after passing the threshold the plane dives into the runway.

"Onto" would probably be a bit better of a word to use. Just a heads up.

But you are probably referring to the LAPES drop.

http://www.parachutehistory.com/military/lapes.html

From what I heard from my Air Force friends the USAF discourages the use of this drop technique.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
mirage
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:11 am

I got the reply in the civil aviation forum, it's called Khe Sanh approach.

Luis
 
bsergonomics
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:51 am

You're thinking about what's now called the Sarajevo Landing. It's done from more than 2000 feet.

A G-222 crashed at (Fairford?) Airshow performing the manoeuvre. The G-222 is the civil equivalent of the C-27, the 'Baby Hercules'. I have a copy of the video but I don't know where it's posted.
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AFHokie
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:29 am

It's not called anthing cosmic, just a high approach, pretty much every military aircraft will perform them, they're most impressive whenever transports do them though. They usually start much higher than 2000 feet, closer to 20,000 ft when they'll do a rapid decent to around 3000 feet and pull out right around where the final approach point is. Basically the whole point of the manuever is to keep the aircraft out of reach of small arms and manpads as long as possible.
 
wannabe
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:01 pm

I have watched C5's practice it at SWF recently, where they call it the Bahgdad approach, especially since an A300 and a C5 have already been hit there. The first time you see it done, your heart is in your throat as you watch a bird that size dive for the deck.
 
jwenting
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:33 pm

Popular name is indeed Khe San approach.
It was first made into an official procedure during the siege of trhe USMC base at Khe San when the NVA and VC had put up large numbers of light AAA on the approaches to the base and the only way to avoid getting hit was to come in high and fast.

It has also been used in Sarajevo and I guess some countries who want to be politically correct might not want to call it for a city in Vietnam...
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f4wso
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:26 pm

Perhaps you mean an "Overhead" approach. This is a standard arrival where the aircraft flies upwind at 1500 AGL or above. This is 500 feet above the normal traffic pattern. At the threshold or location designated by tower, the airplane pitches right or left 180 degrees into a downwind. The tower may have the pitchout delayed to the far end of the runway to facilitate departure traffic. Abeam the threshold on downwind, the aircraft descends and makes the base turn to final.

Gary
Cottage Grove, MN

"overhead traffic pattern" on a search engine may yield more info.
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mirage
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:30 pm

Gary, I don't need more speculation, it's the Khe Sanh approach or Sarajevo approach.

Luis
 
Duce50Boom
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:33 am

There's gratitude for you
 
mirage
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Wed Jul 28, 2004 5:10 am

I apologise if I sound rude, the question is that I have the answer, I said thanks to those who helped me and I'm not very keen for speculating other possibilities.

Luis
 
2912n
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:35 am

Considering what Gary does for a living I would say his is the least speculative answer of them all.
 
mirage
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:07 am

"Considering what Gary does for a living I would say his is the least speculative answer of them all."

What's your point?
So Graig is a pilot, does this means I have to accept the "Overhead" approach as the correct answer even if it is a different maneuver from what I've seen and asked?

Luis
 
f4wso
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:14 am

I appreciate the comments from both Mirage and Duce. I am a civilian commercial pilot and for the last 11 years a navigator on C-130s. I've never heard of Khe Sanh or Sarajevo approaches as names for a procedure. Your original question said 2,000 feet past the threshold which fits the criteria for an overhead.
Gary
Cottage Grove, MN
Seeking an honest week's pay for an honest day's work
 
mirage
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:27 am

Gary, my initial value of 2000ft was estimated, it may not be exactly 2000ft, I guess it's more, I'm really sorry for not giving precise information. I was at an airshow lately, this C-130 made a straight in approach, no 180º turns to downwind, just a straight in and relatively high approach, just after passing the threshold the C-130 dive, flare and lands. The airshow commentator presented that approach as a Khe Sanh approach. Later at home while editing the photos from this approach I needed that name but simply could not remember. I asked here and on the civil aviation and got the same "Khe Sanh" name I have heard at the airshow.

I recognise there are other kind of similar approaches.

Luis
 
f4wso
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:38 am

Good luck on getting the photo accepted if you are submitting it. I always enjoy looking at both military and civil Herks in the database. Sounds like the announcer was describing the maneuver in more colorful terms to give the audience an appreciation of what they are seeing.

Thanks for your expanded explanation clearing the matter.
Take care,
Gary
Cottage Grove, MN
Seeking an honest week's pay for an honest day's work
 
mirage
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:34 am

Thanks Gary, and also thanks for your understanding.

BTW, this is the guilty:

http://www.pbase.com/image/31917188/original

Luis
 
f4wso
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Sat Jul 31, 2004 2:39 am

That is an incredible photo, Luis! Thanks for the link. In seeing that it is an RAF J model, I am unfamiliar with any of their terminology.
Gary
Cottage Grove, MN
Seeking an honest week's pay for an honest day's work
 
SlamClick
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:47 am

Great Shot!

But if you were standing on the ground when you took that I'm going to have to go with the "crash."

Are we talking about the "tactical" approach here?
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vzlet
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:20 am

Here's an anonomously created but rather colorful description of another form of C-130 tactical approach:

There I was at six thousand feet over central Iraq, two hundred eighty knots and we're dropping faster than Paris Hilton's panties. It's a typical September evening in the Persian Gulf; hotter than a rectal thermometer and I'm sweating like a priest at a Cub Scout meeting.

But that's neither here nor there. The night is moonless over Baghdad tonight, and blacker than a Steven King novel. But it's 2003, folks, and I'm sporting the latest in night-combat technology. Namely, hand-me-down night vision goggles (NVGs) thrown out by the fighter boys. Additionally, my 1962 Lockheed C-130E Hercules is equipped with an obsolete, yet, semi-effective missile warning system (MWS). The MWS conveniently makes a nice soothing tone in your headset just before the missile explodes into your airplane. Who says you can't polish a turd?

At any rate, the NVGs are illuminating Baghdad International Airport like the Las Vegas Strip during a Mike Tyson fight. These NVGs are the cat's ass. But I've digressed.

The preferred method of approach tonight is the random shallow. This tactical maneuver allows the pilot to ingress the landing zone in an unpredictable manner, thus exploiting the supposedly secured perimeter of the airfield in an attempt to avoid enemy surface-to-air-missiles and small arms fire. Personally, I wouldn't bet my pink ass on that theory but the approach is fun as hell and that's the real reason we fly it.

We get a visual on the runway at three miles out, drop down to one thousand feet above the ground, still maintaining two hundred eighty knots. Now the fun starts. It's pilot appreciation time as I descend the mighty Herk to six hundred feet and smoothly, yet very deliberately, yank into a sixty degree left bank, turning the aircraft ninety degrees offset from runway heading. As soon as we roll out of the turn, I reverse turn to the right a full two hundred seventy degrees in order to roll out aligned with the runway. Some aeronautical genius coined this maneuver the "Ninety/ Two-Seventy." Chopping the power during the turn, I pull back on the yoke just to the point my nether regions start to sag, bleeding off energy in order to configure the pig for landing.

"Flaps Fifty!, Landing Gear Down!, Before Landing Checklist!" I look over at the copilot and he's shaking like a cat shitting on a sheet of ice. Looking further back at the navigator, and even through the NVGs, I can clearly see the wet spot spreading around his crotch. Finally, I glance at my steely-eyed flight engineer. His eyebrows rise in unison as a grin forms on his face. I can tell he's thinking the same thing I am. "Where do we find such fine young men?" "Flaps One Hundred!" I bark at the shaking cat.

Now it's all aimpoint and airspeed. Aviation 101, with the exception there's no lights, I'm on NVGs, it's Baghdad, and now tracers are starting to crisscross the black sky.

Naturally, and not at all surprisingly, I grease the Goodyear's on brick-one of runway 33 left, bring the throttles to ground idle and then force the props to full reverse pitch. Tonight, the sound of freedom is my four Hamilton Standard propellers chewing through the thick, putrid, Baghdad air. The huge, one hundred thirty thousand pound, lumbering whisper pig comes to a lurching stop in less than two thousand feet. Let's see a Viper do that! We exit the runway to a welcoming committee of government issued Army grunts. It's time to download their beans and bullets and letters from their sweethearts, look for war booty, and of course, urinate on Saddam's home.

Walking down the crew entry steps with my lowest-bidder, Beretta 92F, 9 millimeter strapped smartly to my side, I look around and thank God, not Allah, I'm an American and I'm on the winning team. Then I thank God I'm not in the Army.

Knowing once again I've cheated death, I ask myself, "What in the hell am I doing in this mess?" Is it Duty, Honor, and Country? You bet your ass. Or could it possibly be for the glory, the swag, and not to mention, chicks dig the Air Medal. There's probably some truth there too. But now is not the time to derive the complexities of the superior, cerebral properties of the human portion of the aviator-man-machine model. It is however, time to get out of this shit-hole. "Hey copilot clean yourself up! And how's 'bout the 'Before Starting Engines Checklist."

God, I love this job!

Anon

"That's so stupid! If they're so secret, why are they out where everyone can see them?" - my kid
 
zobatc
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RE: C-130 Dive Approach Name?

Sat Jul 31, 2004 11:18 am

The approach in question is called a Random Steep...the low level high-speed entry is called a random shallow...

[Edited 2004-07-31 04:20:47]

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