squirrel83
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Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:03 pm

I did a search and only came up with the following post http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1687126/6/

I was promoted with this question by a friend thought I would ask? Why doesn't the Air Force One have winglets? Or at least ONE Air Force One.

Because I know that it wont do good on A MIA RDU flight but IAD to LAX it would be very helpfull. (Fuel efficient)

Also is right to call the Air Force One a 747-300 ?? Or just A upgraded -200 (Super 200)

Why not a new livery for every new president that goes into office? (curiosity But with the Campaine money that is leftover HEY put it into a paint job)

[Edited 2004-08-16 09:04:05]
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aa61hvy
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:05 pm

AF1 is a 742 body.

I'm willing to bet that AF1 has some kind of extended range on it, or that it never carries a huge load of passengers so it gets good mileage
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BIGBlack
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:07 pm

But doesn't it carry a lot of extra crap as payload? Fancy desks, security measures and such? New for every president would be pricey.
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spacecadet
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:18 pm

Also is right to call the Air Force One a 747-300 ?? Or just A upgraded -200 (Super 200)


Neither. It's a VC-25. See here: http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet_print.asp?fsID=131&page=1

Whenever you talk about why it has this or that, or it's missing this or that (like winglets), then you can in some cases say "because it's based on a 747-200". But to answer your question exactly as it's worded, if someone asked you the actual designation of this aircraft, it's a VC-25.

The VC-25 doesn't need winglets because it's capable of mid-air refueling. It might save a little money to have winglets but you can't just stick a winglet on a wing that wasn't designed for them, so it's not worth the effort or expense, I'm sure. The VC-25 is not really about saving money in any case.


Why not a new livery for every new president that goes into office? (curiosity But with the Campaine money that is leftover HEY put it into a paint job)


Because the airplane doesn't represent the President, it represents the country. The livery is the livery of the United States of America, not the livery of George Bush or Bill Clinton or John Kerry. The livery has been basically the same since the days of John Kennedy, and if you ask me, it still looks classier than almost any other livery flying (especially now that BA changed their classic livery).

It would be illegal to use campaign funds for something like this anyway. The plane is owned by the US Air Force, not by a presidential candidate's campaign organization.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:24 pm

Because the airplane doesn't represent the President, it represents the country. The livery is the livery of the United States of America, not the livery of George Bush or Bill Clinton or John Kerry. The livery has been basically the same since the days of John Kennedy....

From what I have heard (source unknown, but I think it was brought up at Reagan's funeral on TV...) is that President Kennedy's wife, Jackie, was the one that did the design of the livery for the original Air Force One. And that was carried on to the current Air Force One.
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A319114
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:38 pm

I believe Air Force One had that livery before Kennedy got in office... Wasn't Eisenhower the first president to fly the Air Force One with the blue/white/silver livery, a DC-4 if i remember correctly
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N774UA
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:44 pm

A couple months ago at the Museum of flight in Seattle I was told by staff that the livery was designed by Jackie Kennedy.

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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:48 pm

I believe Air Force One had that livery before Kennedy got in office.

That IS the one and only livery that Jackie Kennedy designed herself and is now passed on the current Air Force One.
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A319114
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:03 pm

Wow I didn't know that. She did a great job, it's a timeless design
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spacecadet
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:05 pm

Jackie Kennedy did not design the livery for Air Force One. She enlisted Raymond Loewy to do it, and it's his livery that has been passed down to the current airplanes.

http://www.raymondloewy.org/gallery/airforce1.html

If you want to see the original design (which was red, white and blue), follow this link and scroll down the page, but beware it's either going to ask you to open up an app to play a sound, or it's just going to start playing it for you:

http://www.rediscoveredpaper.com/af1.html

This older livery may have been "designed" by Jackie Kennedy (I don't really know anything about it, and doubt many people do anymore), but Raymond Loewy, who was/is a famed designer, came up with the current livery.

If the Museum of Flight is telling people that Jackie Kennedy designed the livery for the current Air Force One, somebody there needs to be strung up. It is one of Raymond Loewy's signature achievements and it's pretty well-known in design circles...

[Edited 2004-08-16 10:12:24]
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f4f3a
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:23 pm

I remember reading somewhere that af1 had an incredible endurance something in the region on 48hrs (without refueling). The engines are new not something normaly seen on 200s and im sure the avionics are very impressive probably 744 style or newer. Then there are all the other goodies on it that aren't standard that I think are continually upgraded.

I don't think winglets are an issue considering the airforce still flies b52s kc135s which drink gas so economics as regard to cost aren't an issue.

I don't think that the livery should be changed either. The a/c is a symbol of power and presence and I think the continuity of the livery is a part of this. The BA scheme caused uproar and controversy so imagine what would be the reaction of changing af 1 every four years.

Although I wonder what a/c could be next poss 7e7 derivative in ten years or so.
 
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:48 pm

The VC-25As (there are 2, plus 4 E-4Bs known as NEACP) have an endurance of around 72 hours. This is not limited by fuel (mid-air refueling) but by lubrication in the engines.

Certifiying winglets for 2 examples of a type would be unreasonably expensive considering the limited savings.

As has been mentioned, they are based on the 747-200 but are really a custom job with different avionics and various other doodads (in air-refueling, commo equipment, trailing antenna, etc...)
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:52 pm

Isn't Air Force One the call sign for any flight the president is on - so therefore not specific to the VC-25?
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:58 pm

Almost right.

Air Force One - any Air Force aircraft with the President on board.
Marine One - any Marine aircraft with the President on board, like the helicopter.
Army One - any Army aircraft with the President on board.
Navy One - any Navy aircraft with the President on board, like the Greyhound when he visits a carrier.
Executive One - any non-military aircraft with the President on board.
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syncmaster
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:02 pm

It is the call sign for any Air Force aircraft, Marine One for Marine aircraft, Civilian One for Civil Aircraft, etc.

Otherwise it's SAM 2x000 (whatever number it is, I can never remember).
 
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:12 pm

Also is right to call the Air Force One a 747-300 ?? Or just A upgraded -200 (Super 200)
Neither. It's a VC-25.

I believe that the name is VC-25A.

Why not a new livery for every new president that goes into office? (curiosity But with the Campaine money that is leftover HEY put it into a paint job)
Aside from the politics of re-painting it for campaigning purposes, AF1 and the Air Force is to serve every president the same regardless of his political party.

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Starlionblue
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:23 pm

The livery (or a very similar one) is also used on other planes, for example for the Vice President (and I assume other representatives of the Executive Branch):


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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:01 pm

It is the call sign for any Air Force aircraft, Marine One for Marine aircraft, Civilian One for Civil Aircraft, etc

Not quite. As someone else said, it's Executive One for any nonmilitary aircraft.

Otherwise it's SAM 2x000 (whatever number it is, I can never remember).

That would be SAM 28000 or SAM 29000, depending on which VC-25 is being used.
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eksath
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:14 pm

I believe Air Force One had that livery before Kennedy got in office... Wasn't Eisenhower the first president to fly the Air Force One with the blue/white/silver livery, a DC-4 if i remember correctly

Well ..here is the Eisenhower's Connie and she is silver. In service till 1966


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I believe there was a DC-4,too...and she had a red,white ,blue theme...bu the blue was a darker blue than on AF one now.
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:18 pm

When will they create a AF1 744? I'd pay a few extra tax dollars for that Big grin As long as it's not soiled by Bush's presence.

If they did go to the 744, what would happen to the current 742's?
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:36 pm

As has been exhaustively discussed in countless threads, the VC-25As are very young in airframe time, they are ridiculously well maintained, and hardly ever used in relative terms.

There is really no need for a replacement any time soon, and going to the 744 wouldn't add anything new to the table. Going from the 707 (don't know the designation of the Presidential one) to the VC-25A was a huge leap in capabilities. Just getting a couple of custom 744s wouldn't change anything significant.

So I don't see a new Presidential aircraft until the current ones get too old (imagewise, not airframe wise) or some new (US built) plane can add quite a bit of new capability.
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:53 pm

The Presidential 707's were designated VC-137s. They were tail #'s 26000 and 27000. Aircraft 26000 entered service in 1962 with JFK.
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spacecadet
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:13 am

Isn't Air Force One the call sign for any flight the president is on - so therefore not specific to the VC-25?

This is technically true, and I appreciate it when people know and acknowledge it, but on the other hand it's a pet peeve of mine whenever someone tries to tell me not to call the VC-25A's Air Force One because they're only called that when the president's on one of them. As you can plainly see on both the Air Force's and Boeing's web sites, this isn't true at all:

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/af1/flash.html
http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet_print.asp?fsID=131&page=1

Now, if we were all in the Presidential Airlift Group, or if we were all air traffic controllers, then we'd be calling any USAF plane the president's in "Air Force One". It's just a flight number, just like any commercial airplane flight number. But we're not doing technical ops, so we're free to call the VC-25's Air Force One colloquially just like the Air Force and Boeing themselves do. I don't think there's anything wrong with this as long as you understand that there can be other planes called this, depending on what the pres is flying on.

The fact is the VC-25's exist for no other reason than to transport the President of the United States. On any official flight they're on, they will be designated Air Force One. Only ferry or repositioning flights will be designated something else. They exist to be Air Force One, so I think it's fine to call them that (and so does the AF and Boeing).
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Gregg
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:10 am

Back to the original post. Why no winglets? Well the 747-200 it is based on didn't have winglets. Also, AF1 is primarily used for shorter flights, domestic USA. On shorter flights, the winglets cost fuel, not save it.

 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:14 am

Even if it flew long haul, the certification costs would be too high. Only two frames.
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:11 am

Spacecadet,

What a great answer !
Totally agree, a fair analysis.

But I'm sorry, I can't add you to respect user, I'm a newbie !!!

Note that I'm not in love with you  Smile

Regards
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:23 am

Why the hell do you need to bring politics into this discussion Byrdluvs747? Totally tasteless.

When I toured the Seattle Museum of Flight I was told that Jackie Kennedy HIRED the person to design the scheme on AF1. At least was employ did their homework I guess.

Mark

 
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:59 am

Gregg: You beat me to it. Not even every 744 has winglets because they do not fly long haul. We need to go to tech-ops to get a purist's point of view to explain why. But I am sure it is cost of installation and the added weight. Though I would like to hear of any aerodynamic issues if there are any.
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fokkerf28
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Tue Aug 17, 2004 8:01 am

Back to the original post, Why no winglets?
I don't believe that the vc-25's are worried about fuel efficiency.
 
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Tue Aug 17, 2004 8:09 am

The current AF-1 is basically a 747-200 and no -200s have winglets.

The US government is not worried about saving fuel on AF1.
It would be expensive to certify winglets on the 747-200s.
If it was such a good idea, the airlines (who fly their planes much more than AF1) would have winglets.

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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Tue Aug 17, 2004 8:12 am

Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Three words,......... in flight refueling.  Laugh out loud
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RE: Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?

Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:25 pm

OK guys.

1: The aircraft is based on the 747-200
2: Since it is a publicly owned aircraft, it does not need to be certified.
3: Loery designed the paint job.
4: The aircraft does employ additional fuel tanks if needed, they are designated as the KC-10A and KC-135A/E/R tankers respectively
5: Ike was the first president to get 707 jets but they wore the Standard USAF natural Metal/Dayglow panel scheme of the time.
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