L-188
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When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:37 pm

In real life.

anyway still working on piecing together the Alaska Air Defense Forces (I have done a couple other posts on the subject) anyway working on trying to find a suitable timeline for a fleet of eight training aircraft.

What I am thinking is that that the Forces original fielded T-28D Fennecs, in a combined training/FAC role. However that did not prove satisfactory a dedicated training unit was in order, so in the late 1960's I am picturing them fielding the Folland Gnat aircraft from G.B.

However I am still trying to figure out how long to keep them in service. My current thinking is that in the late 1970's/early 1980's they became the first western country to field a soviet bloc aircraft in their fleet, specifically the L-39 trainer from Chechoslavakia.

Can anybody come up with a timeline when the Gnats where retired in other air forces? And anybody have any idea about their loss rate in real life.

[Edited 2004-08-23 12:44:17]
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bennett123
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:30 pm


I think that the RAF retired it in 1979.

British Military Aircraft Accidents ISBN 0-7110-1786-7 shows 33. However it starts in 1966. Clearly there would have been earlier crashes.

I can give some further details from that book later if wanted.

The last was on 22 May 1979.

I am also sure that there have been Civilian crashes since then.

Regarding the Indian Air Force, Combat losses would have a bearing. Also they seem to have high accident rates. Finally does the HAL Azeet count as a Gnat.

 
L-188
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:39 pm

I think we can count it, They are cousins after all.

So 33 losses since 66......I supose the next question would be how many Gnats where in service in this period, or where they any weird accidents that shouldn't count....

Or even simplere is there a loss rate/flgiht hour figure.

Actually if the RAF dumped theirs in 79, Timing might be pretty good for my original idea.
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Spacepope
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:16 am

For the armed trainer role, why not go with the ugly little T-2 Buckeye? In service then, and still in service today with the USN and Greece. Plus the added advantage of 2 powerplants over the wilds and oceans of Alaska.
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bennett123
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:43 am

L188

What is Alaska Air Defence Forces?.

Not a name that I have come across before.
 
IndianFlyboy
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:30 am

Hi L-188,

The Folland Gnat served the Indian Air force for a very long time , the first batch landed in 1957 and the last one was delivered in 1974. Around the smae time production was stopped by Folland. HAL made its version of the gnat under license and was called the Ajeet. The gnats started retiring in the late seventies 1978-79 as frontline fighters and were in service as trainers till the late 80's when they went out of service.


REgards
 
iakobos
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:36 am

T-2 Buckeye in Greece ????
 
Spacepope
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:57 am

yep, T-2 in greece:

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L-188
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:36 am

BENNETT123

Oh just a little bit of revisionist history I occupy myself with when I am bored waiting for medivac calls at work. Been a pretty good way of practicing my typing  Big thumbs up

Working Theory is that in 1958, the Alaskan people where given the option of forming their own country as required by the United Nations but was prohibited from considering by the US Government, which only allowed the territory to vote on statehood (True BTW).

Obviously for my rivisionist history to work, well independence was voted for.

As far as the air force, Several of it's Mig-29, AN-72, F-100 aircraft do exist, but being 1/72nd real size they are kind of hard to spot at the airport.
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bennett123
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Tue Aug 24, 2004 4:33 pm

L188

I really would not have Gnat's as trainers.

They were far to hot and far to difficult to maintain.

They were also so cramped that the pilots and engineers had to be midgets.

Furthermore, they have only 1 engine. I would prefer 2 over Alaska.

Finally most aircraft of that era had rather short legs, and Alaska is rather a big place.

I would opt for T38's.
 
FedEx
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:28 pm

L188,
I actually joined after only being a visitor of A.net for the last many years just to reply to your topic. I am in the middle of doing the same "Historical Revision" , and I am having similar problems, but mine is with a choice of fighter aircraft during the period of Mid 60's to Mid 70's in Panama.
For your problem, I agree 100% with Spacepope, the T-2 can't be beat for reliability and safety. They were built like a twin engine tank and had an offensive capability if required. Also, most importantly, the US had no problems selling it to foreign countries (Greece, Venezuela). I look forward to sharing notes and ideas with you about your "revision".

 
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:27 pm

Alaska as an independent country? Give a break. Juneau will be turned into glass before that happens.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
L-188
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:28 pm

The Buckeye might work, but I am concerned that it is bit too late for my timeline. In fact I might as well just stick with F-5B's since the A model was aquired as a F-100 replacement in 65.

On of the atractions of the Gnat is that it was small and cheap and allready in production for the timeline.

I was also tinkering with the Idea of the T-33 too.

Older aircraft but even in US service they wheren't retired until 1984.
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FedEx
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:41 am

The F-5B would make sence if you are running the F-5A, but the T-33 would be a good addition as a "lead in" trainer and double as a COIN bird in a pinch. What are you using for your roundels and other markings?
 
L-188
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:50 pm

Well the operational structure I am envisioning is 12 combat aircraft per squadron and two trainers of the type operated by the squadron inservice as HACK's, So in the world I am envisioning, I see two F5 squadrons that formed in mid-1960's with 12 "A" models and 2 "B" models each.

I am pictuing that the Alaska Defense Forces is one of the few militaries that requires a civilian pilots license in hand before applying to be a pilot.

So I really don't see the need for a basic piston trainer such as the T-41, Bulldog or Firefly in this service. But there is a need for a basic jet trainer to provide initial jet flight experience and screening for pilot applicants.

Right now I do have the AT-28 in service from inception in 59, but being a piston aircraft it can't cover the jet requirement, and the training mission takes away hourse from the FAC mission since these would have been fitted out for that role.
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FedEx
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:02 pm

Was the AT-28 the first aircraft in the ADF inventory? I love the requirement of a civilian pilot's license as a prerequisite, a MUST for Alaska flying. Any DC-3's or Twin Otters in the inventory through the years?
 
bennett123
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:12 pm

L188

As a starting point, what was the role of the Alaska ADF, who were you defending yourself against, (USSR, Canada or the USA).

I can see an Air Defence role, (if only to escort away strays) but FAC?.

Other roles would be Maritime/Fishery Patrol, SAR and Airlift.

Am I missing something here.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:50 am

Why don´t you set up the Alsakan Defense Forces as a militia, like the Swiss military? Your country is well suited to partisan warfare and invaders (maybe with the excemption of the Canucks and the Siberians) would have to adapt to the climate. Additionaly your country isn´t that much populated. So for the airforce, use civilian pilots, who have to do a certain time a month on military aircraft. For the army, have everybody go through initial military training and then take his/her rifle home and practise several times a year. You don´t need many professional soldiers, just for administration and maintenance, but as the Swiss say "Switzerland doesn´t have an Army, Switzerland IS an Army!".

Jan

[Edited 2004-08-28 21:51:19]
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L-188
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:23 pm

Actually that is the setup for the reserve forces, each village having a "milita" charged with local defense. However for the air force, I am not planning on any dedicated "reserve squadrons", rather reserve pilots would be assigned to the existing squadrons to "round out" if you will in the case of conflict. Figure this would allow extra pilots in the squadron that would then be able to "Switch off" between missions and increase the operating tempo, while still allowing adequte rest between sorties.

A free nation still needs a standing organized army, a lesson that the Americans learned from the War of 1812, when we unsuccessfully tried to free the Canadians from their oppressive British masters  Laugh out loud

From that war came the permanant standing military in the US and the creation of the USMA at West Point. By the time the Mexican Wars came around, the army had figured out how to keep the warfighting lessons they had learned in 1812 intact, something that had been lost between 1787 and 1812.
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L-188
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:10 pm

As a starting point, what was the role of the Alaska ADF, who were you defending yourself against, (USSR, Canada or the USA).

Actually all of the above, although it would have been aligned with the west at the time of it's formation. However over all the services I would expect that a large portion of it's equipment over the years would come from the US, especially with income from land and airspace leases to the US.

What I am envisioning at this time, is that the original plan was to form up two squadrons with US provided F-100D/F aircraft and then two squadrons would have formed up with the CF-105 Arrow aircraft. However as we know the Arrow was cancelled and the last example hidden in a barn somewhere in Canada. When the Arrow was canceled the US and Alaska agreed that the USAF would provide long range inteception of Soviet aircraft (Also justifies the continued precence of the USAF in Alaska) leaving the ground attack mission to the ADF(Alaska Defense Services).

Come to think about it, one real possiblity, if the Gnat doens't work out would to say that after the independence vote, earnest money was put down on the CF-105's, part of the money instead of being returned on Diffenbakers cancelation of the project was rolled to a purchase of Tutor trainers from Canada.


That many be the way I go.
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bennett123
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:55 am

L188

Did the Canadians want to be liberated in 1812.
 
L-188
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RE: When Would The Folland Gnat Run Out Of Life

Tue Aug 31, 2004 3:49 pm

These days they claim know, but I figure they couldn't have known about the Iron fisted rule of former PM Jean Creitan.
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