CV990
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Portuguese Air Force Goes Shopping!

Sun Sep 19, 2004 5:36 pm


Hi!

Last Friday Portugal signed a contract of about 225 million euros for the purchase of 5 P-3C that belonged to Nederlands. Portugal and the workshops at Alverca ( OGMA ) knew well these P-3's since some years ago they used to be regular there for inspections.
The tradition keeps going with maritime warfare aquisition of airplanes from Nederlands, in early 60's Portugal also received from this country another Lockheed product, at that time it was the well known P2V5.
Portugal started to operate the P-3 in 1986 when they received 6 ex: RAAF P-3B that were modified by Lockheed to a portuguese version called P-3P.
Now Portugal will have an enhanced version of the P-3 with the C version. Can any of our dutch readers tell me what C version will Portugal receive? Is it the Upgrade III or the Upgrade II or maybe the Upgrade II and 1/2 one. And also any ideas what the particular airplanes are involved?
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Portuguese Air Force Goes Shopping!

Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:24 am

Hi,

Although I am Dutch, I'm afraid I can't tell you the exact type of Orion. What I would like to say though is that Mr. Kamp, the Dutch minister of Defence is a complete idiot (sorry for politicising this thread...). First he wanted to sell all 13 Orions, and close down their airbase (Valkenburg) and then also close down the navy air base (and heliport) of Den Helder. Now he backed down a bit, saying he wants more money from the offshore industry to keep Den Helder open, as they are good for the majority of operations. Fair enough. It seems also that Valkenburg air base is going to stay for a while (some people suspect the Dutch Queen's influence there), but we're going to lose our Orions! I think the remaining 8 will be sold to Germany.
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CV990
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RE: Portuguese Air Force Goes Shopping!

Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:47 pm


Hi!

Well it looks that the Dutch Navy had clients for all their P-3's!!! Good to know thta Germany will come to the "restrict" group of P-3 users! Now a question, what will be the next airplane that Nederlands will buy to replace the P-3 Orion?
About Portugal my feeling is that Portuguese Air Force will wfu their P-3P's and will start using them has spares. Portugal never had all their 6 P-3P's at use, has far has I know only 4 were flying at all. FAP Nr. 14804 is now stored minus engines at Alverca, and I never saw 14806 flying.
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
L-188
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RE: Portuguese Air Force Goes Shopping!

Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:23 pm

I don't think they are planning a replacement at all.

Holland seems to be willing to sell off any semblance of a military one aircraft/ship/tank at a time.
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CV990
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RE: Portuguese Air Force Goes Shopping!

Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:07 pm


Hi L-188.

Very interesting your words, specially taking in mind that Holland was always a "maritime" country and they always ( at least until now.... ) wanted to be involved in those issues! For me it will be quite a disapointment if they don't choose a replacement!
For Portugal it's a value-added have these P-3's! I'm sure OGMA from Alverca knows well how good these Orions are.
About Germany, does this means that the Breguet Atlantic is ending is years?
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
L-188
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RE: Portuguese Air Force Goes Shopping!

Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:34 pm

My understanding was that the Netherlands P-3 retirement is completely budgetary.

I understand that a number of fairly recent build warships (15-29 y.o.) are also going out on the market.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
keesje
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RE: Portuguese Air Force Goes Shopping!

Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:18 pm

I have worked / flown on them (a long time ago). IMO they are excellent machines. They are in the process of getting an extensive (X00.000.000 E mln) capability upgrade at this moment!

I heard some numbers on the price, which seems pretty low IMO. Excellent buy for the Portuguese & German Navy.

On the Dutch Royal Navy air services, this is a new phase. In “better” times they had bombers, jet fighters, seaplanes, aircraft carrier & worldwide bases.

Well times are changing, P3Cs require a lot of maintenance & crew and submarine warfare isn’t the biggest priority anymore…

Sad thing to see them go tough ..


http://www.vliegkampopen.com/orionfotoboek/

Always good roll performce .. & the bulb windows provide a great backward look (you can see the smoke !)

http://www.vliegkampopen.com/orionfotoboek/images/carrier_jpg.jpg
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
L-188
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RE: Portuguese Air Force Goes Shopping!

Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:42 pm

Yeah, true anti-sub isn't what it used to be, but a patrol airplane is still a pretty powerful asset for SAR work, Pollution control and fisheries enforcement.
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keesje
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RE: Portuguese Air Force Goes Shopping!

Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:41 am

True L-188, but I guess they concluded it is a bit expensive for that. Two F60's will be modified to do some of it (drugs patrol in Caribbean). Additional fuel tanks, sensors and crew stations.



Perhaps 2 more later on..

Not same same range/ sensors /speed as P3C of course.. but for a much lower price..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
CV990
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RE: Portuguese Air Force Goes Shopping!

Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:00 am


Hi!

Good to have some feedback from a dutch friend!!! I always think that dutch people are very sharp and when they need to tell even if it's hard they'll tell it!
I think it's very sad to see that nothing will come to replace the P-3 in Holland. This country always had a great tribute and commitment to the sea affairs, so not having an airplane to do that task will probably will pay back in the worst manner latter. I agree that maybe 13 P-3's where a big fleet - see for example Portugal or Spain, they also have a big coast and they operate just a few, Norway the same, so..... - but Holland could always have the same number has Portugal, 5 or 6!
Anyway for our dutch friends, we'll take good care of those P-3's and we hope to have them for many years!!!
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
NoUFO
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RE: Portuguese Air Force Goes Shopping!

Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:37 am

About Germany, does this means that the Breguet Atlantic is ending is years?

Exactly.
There was this usual back and forth over the last years. Other options discussed were an all new Maritime Patrol Aircraft on the basis of an A320 and the Atlantique ATL3. Delivery starts in autumn 2005.
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L-188
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RE: Portuguese Air Force Goes Shopping!

Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:11 am

Oh I don't disagree Keesje.

The Dutch government is chosing price over capablity IMHO.

Don't know if that is exactly the right way to go, particualy when you consider that those P-3's have been paid off for years

All you have to do is feed them.
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