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HAWK21M
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Mirage 2000 - A Good Aircraft

Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:09 pm

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/922855.cms
A Mirage 2000 crashes & doubts are raised about a very reliable Jet.This happens only in India.Remember the A320s.
regds
MEL
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IndianFlyboy
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RE: Mirage 2000 - A Good Aircraft

Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:03 pm

Well I am waiting for the moment when the media labels the Mirage 2000's as flying coffins part II now.

4 mirage crashes , this one is set as pilot error (still under investigation) , the one which crashed on take off was a bird hit if I am not wrong , the one on its way back from RSA had a undercarriage failure , dont know about the fourth.
I am yet to see, with the exception of the undercarriage failure which one can be attributed directly to the safety of the aircraft.

Throughout its service with the IAF , the mirage has been exceptional in its performance , these sorts of reports just insult a beautiful aircraft.

The statement on the news item "The news also spelt trouble, for MiG-21s - notorious for frequent crashes and ominously named 'flying coffins' - are old, have trouble with spare parts, while Mirages are considered the safest fighters not just in the IAF but around the world. " , is again incorrect.

Just a blanket statement covering all the MiG 21's , when it is the Type 77 or the FL's which have the maximum problems.

Just our wonderful media at play....

Regards

 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mirage 2000 - A Good Aircraft

Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:12 pm

I think the solution would be multiple Engined Aircraft. Smile
regds
MEL

[Edited 2004-11-16 14:13:05]
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Spacepope
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RE: Mirage 2000 - A Good Aircraft

Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:53 am

The IAF really has to take a look at what they're doing with their Mirage 2000s. 4 crashes in 3 months is absurd, especially as they only crashed 3 in the previous decade. Pretty soon the loss rates are going to approach that of the F-18 in USN service.

IAF jet losses this year, from the top of my head:
4 M2K
4 Jaguar
2 MiG 21
1 MiG 23
1 MiG 27
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sayem55
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RE: Mirage 2000 - A Good Aircraft

Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:38 am

Dude, it’s not the a/c... it’s the person in the cockpit!!! IAF have had phenomenal record of crashing GOOD a/c. MiG-21s were dubbed "flying coffins" when 97% of the accidents were pilots' fault.

StarFighter
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Mirage 2000 - A Good Aircraft

Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:39 pm

I agree the Transition from Flying Sub to Supersonic is causing a problem.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
L-188
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RE: Mirage 2000 - A Good Aircraft

Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:23 pm

Didn't the IAF have issues when the aircraft requiring and extraordinary amount of good treatment compared to other types when introduced?

I think I remember hearing stories about having to construct air conditioned hangers especially for the aircraft because of their dislike of hot ground temps.
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dl021
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RE: Mirage 2000 - A Good Aircraft

Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:42 am

The Mirage 2000 is an excellent aircraft, in the same class as the F-16 series, and the thought that it is to blame for these crashes is an attempt to divert blame.

IAF will continue to have these problems until they get serious about training. The delayed Hawk purchase (for political reasons) and the diversion of funding to nuclear subs and weapons has been the root of some serious issues for the Indians. You don't see this problem with the Taiwanese, French, or other operators of the Mirage, and you certainly did not see this with the MiG-21 with most operators.

The modern Hawks should be brought into service as quickly as possible and the leadership should apologize to the brave pilots that have been failed by the training system, especially in the area of LIFT to this point.

[Edited 2004-11-21 20:44:29]
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IndianFlyboy
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RE: Mirage 2000 - A Good Aircraft

Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:47 pm

While the MiG 21's (earlier variants and MiG 23's) do have airworthiness issues , no sane flight engineer would clear an aircraft for flight if he had the slightest of doubts. If an engine flames out in flight , I seriously doubt the mech who certified it even knew that it would happen.
The big problem with MiG 21's are that they are extremely unforgiving aircrafts. They have exceptional high speed characteristics and wonderful agility but at low speeds it is similar to flying a truck without power steering. Same goes for the MiG 23 as well.While the problems do exist with the flight training ,IMHO attributing this particular incident to flight training would be incorrect. To get to a Mirage 2000 sqn , the pilot would already have been night operational on the MiG 21's , so it is not that the pilot was thrown from a Kiran directly to a Mirage and asked to fly nights.

MiG 21's on the other hand , engine flame out in flight or failure (due to any reasons , bird hit anything) would definitely have a very high possibility of a crash because of the way the aircraft handles. Again , in over 90% of the cases , I would not blame the pilots or the training for this. The reason for this being , if all pilots train on MiG 21-77's or MiG 21-FL's , do all of them crash ?
Attrition rates for the MiG 21-BIS or the MiG 21 Bisons are pretty much in line with all other aircrafts for any airforce in the world.
While the IAF tries everything in its capacity to train pilots for the handling of aircrafts like the MiG 21's , there are certain things which just cannot be taught on the ground and these come with experience , unfortunately sometimes the experience is learnt the hard way.
Getting the Hawks would definitely be a step closer to gaining valuable experience for pilots transistioning from the subsonic Kiran's and Iskra's to the likes of the MiG 21's , but would this eliminate all the crashes , no.

Dl021 , the IAF is very serious about training , the idiots who run the govt however fail to see the reasoning. The Hawk order has been pending since 86 and finally came only in 2003 . As far as the MiG 21 goes , like I said it is the Type 77's or FL-s which gives the problems , as and when these get replaced with the BIS , the attrition rates should come down.

Dude, it’s not the a/c... it’s the person in the cockpit!!! IAF have had phenomenal record of crashing GOOD a/c. MiG-21s were dubbed "flying coffins" when 97% of the accidents were pilots' fault.

Sayem, please justify your post with some links ....

Regards


 
dl021
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RE: Mirage 2000 - A Good Aircraft

Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:19 am

Iflyboy....Did not mean to impugn the entire IAF, just those in government responsible for the lack of training aircraft and for the decision making that leads to use of aircraft that are more difficult than average without the necessary provisions for the safety of the pilots.

Flameouts happen for a reason and the incident rate can be mitigated by better training on the more modern aircraft. This will obviously not eliminate all accidents but it will limit them.

DL021
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