Boeing7E7
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Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:23 am

 
dan2002
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:36 am

I think you just opened a huge can of worms here. I feel and A vs B war looming not too far away.

-Dan
A guy asks 'What's Punk?'. I kick over a trash can and its punk. He knocks over a trash can and its trendy.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:38 am

I feel and A vs B war looming not too far away.

Over a niche military product which Boeing is a partner and Airbus has no remote competitor...  Confused

Tthis isn't the KC-135 replacement or anything
 
AA717driver
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:47 am

Au contraire! The V-22 is said to have numerous civilian applications and we are depending on the military to sort out the problems.

(take that moderator!  Big grin )

Anyway, the safest place to be when a V-22 is flying is in a fixed wing aircraft above the V-22! Time's up guys, you are pi$$ing away money that could be better spent.

If the thing can't stay in the air in peacetime ops, what happens when the shooting starts?
FL450, M.85
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:53 am

AFAIK, Boeing has worked hard with the Marines to fix the computer software glitches that were causing the MV-22 accidents. And considering that it's been awhile since the last unit lost, it's rather hard to label it as a POS.  Insane

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:08 am

And considering that it's been awhile since the last unit lost, it's rather hard to label it as a POS.

It's been grounded. Flew for a couple of months and then was grounded last Friday... AGAIN!

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/10699250.htm?1c

[Edited 2005-01-25 02:09:14]
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:36 am

From TFA:

Ward Carroll, a spokesman for the V-22 program, last week said problems with prop-rotor gearboxes aboard the V-22 tilt-rotor aircraft, -- which takes off and lands like a helicopter but flies like an airplane -- could delay the start of operational tests due to begin in mid- to late-February.

Carroll said the problem had set off cockpit warning lights six times since April 2004, including three in the past month. Such a warning requires the pilot to land as soon as possible.
They're not handing trophies out today
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:45 am

It's been grounded. Flew for a couple of months and then was grounded last Friday... AGAIN!

The F-22 recently had a grounding lifted after an accident. Does that qualify it as a POS? The fact that the warning lights are working properly to alert about the proprotor gearbox issues means that the aircraft's systems are doing their jobs. The gearboxes will be fixed, and the Osprey will fly again.

Every aircraft has teething problems, and I doubt you can find me one piece of military air equipment that would fit your definition of "quality".

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:57 am

^ The V-22's problems are quite extensive and documented. The F-22 is an entirely different situation.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:59 am

Is this the same Ward Carroll who is the author of "Punk's War?"

At any rate, Boeing4ever is right on - military hardware runs some pretty complex code, resulting in difficult teething times. Look at the AMRAAM - nowadays it has a reputation as the silver bullet of AAMs, while during its developmental phase, people were howling for it to be cancelled because it couldn't hit the broad side of a barn due to software problems.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:18 am

Yes, however the V-22's problems are not software related. They are physical problems with the vehicle itself.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:26 am

I'm not saying that the Ospreys problems are software-related, I'm pointing out that a system that is a dog in developmental & trial phases can oftentimes come out performing as advertised. Inded, there have been very few systems that worked to expectations straight out of the box. The F/A-18, the Seawolf-class attack sub, the F-111, the F-14, are only a few examples of this.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:58 pm

The V-22's problems are quite extensive and documented.

So were the F-14's...you're point?

What's even more important to realize is that the tiltrotor concept is pretty damn unconventional. The fact that V-22s have been operational already makes this an achievement. Of course there will be bugs to work out. But once again, show me one piece of military hardware that's worked perfectly right off the bat?

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
Boeing7E7
Topic Author
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:53 pm

So were the F-14's...you're point?

Who said the 14 was any different?
 
iwok
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:06 pm

I think the main issue with the V22 is its limited payload/range capabilities. In order to perform VTOL with 12 men on board, no weapons can be carried. Bad idea. Regarding civilian use, there is no benefit to the V22, since you can get cheaper helicopters with greater payload capacity.

I like the V22, but it has been in the works too long, is too risky and needs be dumped.
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:26 pm

Like all new concepts, the V22 will have a very long teething process, well into its operational life after it leaves testing.
Pilots are idots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
grom365
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:49 pm

The V-22 can carry the same troop load as the CH-46E, and it can carry that load at a higher altitude, at a greater speed, and for a greater distance. Since that's the platform the V-22 is supposed to replace, sounds like an upgrade in capability.

And a joint venture between Bell and Agusta is looking to develop this technology for the civilian market.

As for the last accident - which was 3-4 years ago - that was a result of pilot error and insufficient flight test. In other words, the pilot exceeded the then-certified flight envelope, and due to funding/schedule delays in the flight test program, did not have knowledge of suitable recovery techniques.

Rotor disk stall is a known phenomenon, and the flight envelope was restricted to avoid that possibility. Limit your max descent rate, you eliminate the possibility of generating a ring vortex. The pilot's descent rate in the exercise exceeded the allowable limits. His recovery techniques - namely, increase forward speed to escape his own vortex - would have worked had he been flying a helicopter. But he wasn't.

Now, in fairness to him, various funding cuts and subsequent restructuring of the flight test plan did not permit sufficient testing into this particular area of the flight envelope. [Stupid, when you consider this is the type of mission it will be executing.]

The test program that was undertaken following this accident determined (a) the no-kidding, absolute maximum descent rate; and (b) the recovery technique. Namely, tilt your nacelles forward 5-8 degrees to throw the vortex off your rotor. There was an article in Proceedings magazine a couple of months ago from the V-22 chief test pilot that explains this a little better than I can.

This accident is, to my knowledge, the only one whose cause can be directly - and solely - traced to aerodynamics. In the majority of the other incidents, poor manufacturing/quality control led to the failure of various mechanical components, leading directly to a crash. These have since been re-designed. Software was also a contributing factor in at least one incident.
 
dl021
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:30 pm

Boeing7E7.....Every program has gone through varying levels of difficulties. Everything from the CH-47 and the F-14 has had fatal accidents during testing and these are long serving aircraft that overcame their difficulties during the testing phase that was designed to find the bugs that were not apparent earlier.

That was the same situation for the helicopter when it came out, it was the same thing for the jet when it came out. The difference here is that we have the ability to electronically/digitally limit the flight envelope to avoid the dangerous maneuvers, while still maintaining the transformational capabilities of the aircraft. This thing is a turning point in combat transport, making ingress and egress faster and safer for the troops. Is it more risky than a helo? Without computers, hell yes. But you can't fly an F-16 without computers either, and its been up for 30 years now. They called the F-104 a flying coffin, and some pilots would not fly it.

The V-22 will fly, and it will meet expectations for safety and reliability. It'll take more work, but will be worth it.

[Edited 2005-01-26 14:32:38]
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Alessandro
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:03 pm

2 design problems with the V22, down wash make it hard to operate in the desert and it can´t autorotate if engine fail.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:55 am

Who said the 14 was any different?

Do you consider the F-14 a flying POS? It's been in reliable service for years and has had many teething problems of its own.

But I suppose only the Osprey can get the title "POS" since it's unconventional...  Insane Or is it that you're jealous that you couldn't come up with something as creative compared to the men with degrees in Aeronautical Engineering who developed it?

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
LMP737
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:47 am

I wonder what people were saying about helicopters when they made their first appearance. If I remember my history correctly the safety record of early helicopters was not all that good. Heck there's film of Igor Sikorsky himself crashing in one of his early models.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
dl021
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:55 am

Make no mistake, guys, this airplane is not as safe as a rotary wing helo that can autorotate if engines quit, or a fixed wing airplane with a better glide profile.

THat said, the props are linked so that one engine will power both rotors, and having dual engines makes it tougher to lose both at once. One engine can land the sucker.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
sonic67
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:21 am


The V-22 is a great concept and is unbeatable when everything is going well but it has been hampered with hardware issues because of the complexity of the AC. Also Bell and B have not been able to solve the rotor wash problem but only minimize it with new engines nasals and flight procedures.

 
sonic67
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RE: Flying POS V-22 Get's Funding...

Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:44 am



I guess B is doesn't have a major part in building the civilian version Bell and Agusta are working together on that.

http://www.bellagusta.com/air_ba_main.cfm

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