SATL382G
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USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:44 am

Anybody heard how deep this sub was when it hit? How close did it come to an inner hull breach?

Silent Service almost had a very bad day IMO.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/27/submarine.damaged/index.html
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N328KF
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:58 am

When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
sidishus
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:52 am


Not sure what this has to do with airliners, but I understand the were at 400-700 feet..Here is a first hand account:
http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Defensewatch%20Special%203.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=3&rnd=132.15421036518714

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sidishus
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:22 am

I'll bet they are counting their lucky stars that this was one of the earlier LA class boats with the planes on the sail instead of forward on the hull. If the San Francisco had hull planes, the loss of that port plane, or if it had been jammed into the down position, could have caused an entirely different outcome.
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N328KF
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:26 am

Sidishus:

The other thing is, fortunately it wasn't a Flight II or 688I boat. However, San Francisco was to remain in commission until 2017. If it can't be repaired, they can always refuel Salt Lake City instead of decommissioning her.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
SATL382G
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:30 am

Sorry -- I know it's OT. Didn't want to subject this thread to the Non Av goofiness. Figured you guys would be the ones replying to it anyhow.

Thanks for the pix and sites.

regards
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
LMP737
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:23 am

One things for sure, there's a sub captain who's career is now over.
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L-188
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:48 am

Maybe not LMP737. Although the military does have the habit of being very harsh on mistakes.

They might be able to take it easy on him if in fact it was an uncharted mountain he hit.

It really wouldn't be negligence then.
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SATL382G
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:09 am

The CO has already been relieved, if it wasn't scheduled his career as a sub driver is probably done.
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
LMP737
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:35 am

L188:

Four years in the Navy tells me that his career is done. When I was in I saw CO's get relieved for things minor in comparison to grounding your ship/sub and having crewmen injured and killed.
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norm1153
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:43 pm

My ignorance will be showing, but I'm just too curious:

When moving underwater, as in this case, don't they run some sort of forward-looking radar or sonar to watch for obstructions?

Thanks,
Norm
 
LMP737
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:17 am

Norm1153:

Using active sonar would give the position of the sub away. That's why subs mainly depend on charts for underwater navigation. Unfortunately for the USS San Francisco they ran into an uncharted sea mount.
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N328KF
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:33 am

That's silly. He shouldn't get relieved for something that wasn't his fault.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
HaveBlue
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:23 am

The first hand account offered in Sidishus' post is very interesting.

So they were going at their 'top speed'. Anyone have an idea what the top speed for a sub like that is? And anyone know what depths it is capable of.. I know they were at 500' when it happened.

It is amazing and I am glad that only one person died. From what I read it could have been a lot worse.
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SATL382G
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:34 am

Folks -- The boat was going pretty much full throttle when it hit the mountain. At that speed the sonar is probably pretty close to useless. I understand sub drivers stop periodically to "listen" for other objects in the water. Could be the CO in this case didn't stop often enough. In any case the skipper is ALWAYS responsible for anything that happens to his crew and boat on the high seas.
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
futureualpilot
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:09 am

That's silly. He shouldn't get relieved for something that wasn't his fault.


Yes, it was. He, as the Commanding Officer of the boat, is ultimatley responsible for its safe operation.


As far as the top speed, I dont know for sure but our CO here at Purdue NROTC was a submariner for his whole career (nearly 30 years), and said they can hit 30+kts. when submerged.

[Edited 2005-01-29 22:12:09]
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LMP737
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:44 am

N328KF:

It might sound silly to you but that's the way things work in the Navy. Like I said before skippers get relieved for things that might not seem to be their fault. And for things that are not as serious as your vessel running aground.
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L-188
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:58 am

Oh I don't disagree that is the way things normally work in the Navy.

I am just saying this guy has a much better defense then that guy that surfaced under that Japanses school ship that one time. At this time there is no indication that his actions contributed directly.

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dl021
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:33 am

Future ualpilot....that is the standard answer any submariner will give you if you ask how fast those subs can go. They wont tell you, because its a secret, even though I am sure that our potential enemies already know how fast they'll go.

While I don't think its fair, there is no "fair" when dealing with the safe operation of our nuclear fleet. These are strategic assets, capable of controlling the shipping lanes of the world if we chose, and there is a zero tolerance level for accidents involving damage to the ship. If the inquest clears the captain, he may return, but its doubtful.
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LMP737
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:50 am

L188:

Yes I agree that he has a better defense than the skipper of the Greenville. Since the rock they hit was uncharted I suspect that he won't have to defend himself anyway.
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:57 am

Anyone have an idea what the top speed for a sub like that is?

The USN has always been a little bit skittish about naming top speeds for their SSNs along with their diving capabilities and officially states that the maximum speeds of USN SSNs are over 20 knots. More than likely top speed is in the 30-32 knot range.

The boat was going pretty much full throttle when it hit the mountain. At that speed the sonar is probably pretty close to useless. I understand sub drivers stop periodically to "listen" for other objects in the water. Could be the CO in this case didn't stop often enough.

SATL - it's sort of hard to listen for something that doesn't make noise. Passive sonar doesn't detect oceanic topography.
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SATL382G
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:38 am

it's sort of hard to listen for something that doesn't make noise. Passive sonar doesn't detect oceanic topography.

Who's talking passive sonar? Not me
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:18 am

What's this then?

I understand sub drivers stop periodically to "listen" for other objects in the water. Could be the CO in this case didn't stop often enough.

Sounds to me like you're saying he should have utilized his sonar. If you implied active sonar, sorry, but it's not SOP for SSN skippers to use active sonar as it gives away your position to almost everyone around you.
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SATL382G
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:05 pm

A sub doing 30+ knots is already giving away it's position. Use of active sensors is irrelevant, in this case, to maintaining stealth.

What I'm suggesting is that there's probably more to this story than we are being told.


"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:51 pm

Even if the sub was only going at 10 kts, with all the mass behind it, it is a lot of kinetic energy. Ever tried to jump off a car going 15 mph or 20 km/h?

Jan
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LongbowPilot
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:54 pm

Wow, aviation enthusiasts and pilots arguing about the underworld of the ocean...

To quote C3P0 (Star Wars)

"We're doomed."

 
HaveBlue
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:05 pm

lol Longbow  Smile



filler
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:18 am

Wow, aviation enthusiasts and pilots arguing about the underworld of the ocean...

And maybe it's not occurred to you that perhaps some of us are military enthusiasts in general and might have some degree of competency in both aviation and naval warfare?
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rg828
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:12 pm



If the inner hull was'nt breached, how deep inside is it? That first pic doe'snt show anything loking like an inner hull.

Thank goodness it was'nt an SSBN.

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MD11Engineer
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:16 pm

I assume that the green reeinforced bulkhead is the anticollision bulkhead and also forms the foward bulkhead of the inner hull (pressure vessel).

Jan
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777ER
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:52 pm

Just looking at the damange makes me surprised that the sub is now on a dry dock and everyone is alive.
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sidishus
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:14 pm

If the inner hull was'nt breached, how deep inside is it? That first pic doe'snt show anything loking like an inner hull.

The designers considered this type of collision damage. The area most damaged is occupied by the BQQ-5 sonar dome (mostly covered by the blue tarp) which is normally flooded anyway.
...Still, this is probably being regarded as a "high pucker" event

http://www.usni.org/resources/LAclass/fslaclass.htm

[Edited 2005-02-01 12:20:45]
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Woodreau
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:09 am

Re: whether the CO will be relieved of his command... In 1996, the CO of the USS Gonzales was relieved of his command when he took his shiny new destroyer and ran it aground 3 days after it was commissioned. His sonar dome and propeller blades were found embedded in the reef where the chart said it was safe water...

If you're really quiet, the flow noise of the water moving across topographic features make noise that you can pick up on passive sonar. But at full speed you're not going to be able to hear it on passive sonar over your own ship's noise.

For navigation, the submarine is using INS, similar to an airliner's INS. Then by plotting the INS position on a specialized nautical chart (bottom contour charts), the submarine will know where it is in relation to underwater obstructions. The position accuracy will degrade over time, so the ship's position is usually "fixed" and INS updated every time the submarine is surfaced.

Most of the ocean is deeper than the deepest dive depth that a submarine can go, but there are a lot of areas that are shallow enough for terrain to be a factor/concern.
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LMP737
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:20 am

Just heard on the news that the captain of the San Francisco will be facing charges for the grounding of the sub. No details were given.
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L-188
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:12 pm

Apparently he ignored a sonar test that said the water was shallower then illustrated on the chart prior to the run.

And the chart, while not showing that particular obstruction, did have notes that an obstruction might be present.
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747400sp
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:53 pm

The crew should thank god that it did not turn out to be a worst accident. I hear than she was taking on a lot of water and had trouble resufacing. My goes out to the family of the one sailor who died and those that was injured.
 
LMP737
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:50 am

Here's an update on this unfortunate accident.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/24/submarine.aground.ap/index.html
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SATL382G
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:48 am

Thanks for pointing that out LMP737.

I don't know what these 6 sailors did but if guilty it was best that they took Captains Mast vs Court Martial.

regards
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
LMP737
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:00 pm

SATL382G:

The article mentioned that the punishment was nonjudicial. Which of course means Captains mast. Let's face it though, their careers are effectively over.
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Venus6971
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:46 pm

If offered a Art 15 or a court martial take the Art 15, with a Goverment 99% conviction rate I rather take the cash fine and suspended bust over jail time followed by less than honorable discharge. Been there done that at least I retired a MSgt. Tv's Jag is pure fiction and Bull S$%t.
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SATL382G
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:21 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 38):
Let's face it though, their careers are effectively over.

For an officer, yes that's true. For enlisted probably not. Hard to tell though, not enough info in the article. I know a couple of guys who lost multiple stripes, had a string of four EPRs and still made Chief (E-9).....
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
LMP737
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:47 am

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 40):
For an officer, yes that's true. For enlisted probably not. Hard to tell though, not enough info in the article. I know a couple of guys who lost multiple stripes, had a string of four EPRs and still made Chief (E-9).....

When I was in I knew one chief who had a court martial, when he was junior enlisted, under his belt. One of the chiefs in my squadron had multiple NJP's under his belt from his younger days. It did not prevent him from making chief and eventually senior chief. However neither of these chiefs offenses involved grounding of a ship and the death of a sailor.
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SATL382G
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Mar 26, 2005 4:09 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 41):
When I was in I knew one chief who had a court martial, when he was junior enlisted, under his belt. One of the chiefs in my squadron had multiple NJP's under his belt from his younger days. It did not prevent him from making chief and eventually senior chief. However neither of these chiefs offenses involved grounding of a ship and the death of a sailor.

I think were having art 15s really hurts is if you have a hankering for Command Chief. Thank God not many have that as their career goal....
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
Greyhound
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:08 am

Anyone else here a qualified submariner besides me? I think the crew did an outstanding job with damage control. You don't train for that sort of thing, yet they tended to injured shipmates, conducted efficient damage control and managed to drive the boat back to Apra Harbor with a 2-3 degree list. The people tank (pressure hull) may not have been ruptured, but several ballast tanks were compromised and open to the sea. Talk about difficulty... driving your wounded boat back on the surface after sustaining a major casualty to the ship, and conducting helevac operations. Good job I think.
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dl021
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:36 am

No question the crew responded properly to the emergency once it happened and thats a testament to the Navy's training program for submariners, and to the Captains internal damage control training.

The main issue left now is whether the Navy will be passing on the name San Francisco to any more ships. They seem to have less than sterling luck, and my friends in the naval service seem to be pretty superstitious.
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Greyhound
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:51 am

The Navy's current plans for the USS Usedtofloat are to chop the whole front end off and replace it with the front end of the Atlanta, currently sitting in the boneyard up here in PSNS. I'm not sure where they'd do that at, or what timetable they're looking at, since PSNS in Bremerton has all their drydocks full up at the moment with conversion and general overhaul work. That is at least the current rumblings up here in the PACNW sub community.
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dl021
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:00 am

I think that would be a good way to make use of the USS Atlanta, which was retired way too young.

Are there still stockpiles of submarine parts laying around? I saw some photos of the scrapbins that looked otherworldly with entire sails laying out on top of each other and other submarine parts waiting for the smelter I guess. It was kind of cool and sort of sad at the same time.

Oh, and are either of the old spook subs, Kamahemeha or Polk still there or are they already broken up?

Thnx

DL021
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Stealthz
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:41 pm

OK, this is really dumb question, If the USS Atlanta is intact, would it not make some sense to recommision even if much new equipment was required rather than trying to fit part of her to another boat?

Or are submarines designed to be cut apart and rewelded so it would be no big deal(relatively!)?

Chris
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SATL382G
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:30 pm

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 47):
OK, this is really dumb question, If the USS Atlanta is intact, would it not make some sense to recommision even if much new equipment was required rather than trying to fit part of her to another boat?

These are nuke boats... Probably Atlanta was not refueled and overhauled, put to pasture instead. If San Francisco has recently been refueled and overhauled it's cheaper to mate San Franciscos engineering spaces (the back half) to Atlantas bow.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 47):
Or are submarines designed to be cut apart and rewelded so it would be no big deal(relatively!)?

That's how they were built.... in sections and then welded together...
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: USS San Francisco Accident

Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:45 pm

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 48):
Probably Atlanta was not refueled and overhauled, put to pasture instead. If San

Indeed, Atlanta was decommissioned back in 1999 to save costs from having to refuel and overhaul her.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.

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