Arniepie
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End Is Nearing For Raptor?

Fri Feb 04, 2005 12:21 am

Just saw the new AFM February issue.
Some disturbing news on the F22 program, budget will be down for only 160-180 planes which gives them a sticker price of a whopping 259.000.000 US$.
Is this maybe the ,almost,last nail in the coffin for the complete scrapping of the project ,like a "surprise" announcement in the course of the year or maybe on the beginning of the next fiscal year?)

Link

http://www.keypublishing.com/news/default.asp?new_type=Military&offset=0/

If the link doesn't work automatically, just copy past this in the adress bar.
http://www.keypublishing.com/news/default.asp?new_type=Military&offset=0

[Edited 2005-02-03 16:24:29]
[edit post]
 
LY744
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RE: End Is Nearing For Raptor?

Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:56 am

160-180, holy crap... To think they are supposed to replace 12 or so active duty F-15C/D squadrons, unbelievable. Might as well cancel the program altogether IMO, or let the Raptor serve side-by-side with upgraded F-15Cs.


LY744.
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N328KF
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RE: End Is Nearing For Raptor?

Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:14 am

That's a simplistic view on the situation. It looks like some of the F-22 numbers might be made up by production of an FB-22 (should really be BF-22, but whatever.)
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
LY744
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RE: End Is Nearing For Raptor?

Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:17 am

True, although considering what the program has already been through, one has to wonder if we're being overly optimistic... Still, assuming an eventual phase out of all F-15s from active service (including ~8 Strike Eagle squadrons), we are talking about a dangerous reduction in inventory.


LY744.
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vzlet
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RE: End Is Nearing For Raptor?

Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:31 am

I think the AF is counting on getting them into service, then working on building the inventory.

From a related USAF news release:
“The Raptor operated against all adversaries with virtual impunity,” said Maj. Gen. Richard B.H. "Rick" Lewis, Air Force program executive officer for the F/A-22. “The ground-based systems couldn’t engage the Raptor, and no adversary aircraft survived. That is air dominance, and that’s exactly what the Raptor was designed to give us.”

The F/A-22 scored slightly less in the way of suitability. The center rated the aircraft “potentially suitable.” Suitability tests rate the ease at which the aircraft can be deployed and maintained.

The center identified a number of suitability deficiencies in the F/A-22, which Air Force officials said they are already working to correct.

Air Force officials said the rating indicates the progress the aircraft continues to make as it goes to initial operational capability.

This December, the Raptor is expected to reach initial operational capability, which is the ability to conduct combat operations worldwide.


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echster
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RE: End Is Nearing For Raptor?

Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:40 am

The Air Force promises to push for the 300+ contigent it has wanted during the QDR and with Congress. I think Congress is certain to listen as it means money and jobs for their constituents.
 
Wiggidy
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RE: End Is Nearing For Raptor?

Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:45 am

It seems like there are only a few hopes for the F22 left. The first being a bomber version to "replace" the B2 (there was an article in AW&ST a month or so ago). The other hope is that the defense department finally gets the message across to congress that our technology is no longer enough to win a air-to-air engagement. The recent war games with the Indians is deffinately a good example, as well as NAVY excersizes with German migs. This is the way that I see it, but I have a feeling the program will wander down the same path as the comanche and funding will go to the F35. Just my 2 cents
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greaser
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RE: End Is Nearing For Raptor?

Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:50 pm

The recent war games with the Indians is definitely a good example, as well as NAVY excersizes with German migs

You still believe that?

wander down the same path as the Comanche and funding will go to the F35. Just my 2 cents
The Comanche was cancelled bcoz the DoD found it to be too expensive to do it's scouting duties, and the Oh-58D was a capable helicopter. Also, the fact that you dont appear on radar doesn't mean insurgents cant see you. It would be unimaginably painful to lose a Comanche to a RPG. Fact is, it served a niche market, probably a strike and run type. It certainly would not flourish in Iraq now, where stealth isn't exactly the key.
The F-22 is needed to replace the F-15Cs, 30-year old designs (yet not 1 shot down). It's not THE PLANES' FAULT. I dont want to point fingers, but i think our president wants to cut the budget deficit by any means.
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atmx2000
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RE: End Is Nearing For Raptor?

Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:00 pm

It's not THE PLANES' FAULT.

No but it might be the developers fault for not keeping develop costs under control.
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N328KF
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RE: End Is Nearing For Raptor?

Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:58 pm

Wiggidy:

It was to augment the B-2, and replace the F-15E. FYI.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
keesje
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RE: End Is Nearing For Raptor?

Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:54 am

If I were Boeing I would launch a big F15 upgrade/life extension program, including structural improvements, thrust vectoring, Phased Array Radar, Conformal fuel tanks, Extensive avionics/ systems upgrades etc.

& lobby Washington for a F15G Super Eagle..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Wiggidy
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RE: End Is Nearing For Raptor?

Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:50 am

The OH58D is constantly underpowered for it role. It cant carry both weapon systems and have enough power for troops id necessary to evac. This is why the army currently has a contract to replace it with an MD500 derivative. I know several leiutenants that are assigned to 58D's and their general opinion is its underpowered, yet still capable if ONLY serving the scouting role. However the army wants more than just a pure scout so it looks to another ship.
-Wes
 
SuperHornet
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RE: End Is Nearing For Raptor?

Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:29 am

“If I were Boeing I would launch a big F15 upgrade/life extension program, including structural improvements, thrust vectoring, Phased Array Radar, Conformal fuel tanks, Extensive avionics/ systems upgrades etc.

& lobby Washington for a F15G Super Eagle”

I was speaking with some Boeing folks on this very topic this morning. I was told that they had seen a version of the F-15C with vectored thrust that had been built and successfully tested several years ago. About seven years ago McDonnell Douglas proposed a Super Eagle with vectored thrust that could be built at much lower cost given engineering advances made since its original design. They also offered to incorporate a stealthier signature that would approach that of the F-22. If you compare forward looking silhouettes of the F-15 vs the F-22 you will see many similarities which might lead you to believe that the F-22 is a much more expensive F-15?

Obviously the F-22 will be built and deployed into the existing inventory as well as the
F-35. The real question is how will the deployment of these two systems affect research and development of new unmanned vehicles. It also raises the questions of how the ratio of fighter aircraft inventory and pilots vs unmanned vehicles will play out?
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N328KF
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RE: End Is Nearing For Raptor?

Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:49 am

SuperHornet:

You are referring to the F-15 Active.

http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/f-15_active.pl
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
SuperHornet
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RE: End Is Nearing For Raptor?

Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:55 am

N328KF, thats a great link I never expected to see this bird I will have to forward it to my friends at Boeing.
Watch the ball
 
ulfinator
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RE: End Is Nearing For Raptor?

Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:19 am

Boeing has something to loose as well if the Raptor is scrapped. Boeing builds the wings, the aft fuselage, a good amount of the avionics software and the training stuff. It would be a bummer.
 
juanchopancho
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RE: End Is Nearing For Raptor?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 3:22 am

Last I saw it was down to 120 F-22's from 300+

Part of Rummy's new vision for the DoD, lighter forces. F-22's aren't very useful against terrorists.

Also interesting to note the USAF has been running mock battles between the F-22 vs. F-15's and F-16's and the F-22 has been killing them 80:1. It could be propaganda BS, but interesting.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: End Is Nearing For Raptor?

Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:13 am

The USAF is going to drop the F16, the older F15s and go with the F22 and JSF. The future is here. So they may as well buy these frames rather than scrap a project just to have to go looking for a new one in a few years anyway.
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