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ramprat74
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IAI Kfir

Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:09 am

What is the difference between the Kfir and the Mirage? Why did Isreal build there own, when they were flying Mirages. I think Isreal still flies about 40 Kfir's still.


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DeltaGuy
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RE: IAI Kfir

Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:47 am



You mean one of these? This Kfir is owned by ATAC, a private company that does electronic aggressor work for the US Navy...they come into our airport quite frequently, neat little jets. Everyone thinks they're Mirages at first!

Unfortunately they can't really turn for shit, but they're neat lookin!

DeltaGuy

[Edited 2005-02-28 00:49:09]
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Duce50Boom
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RE: IAI Kfir

Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:29 am

From what I can remember Israel ordered the Mirage V but then the frogs canceled the order when they realized that the arabs had the oil. Israel still liked the V so they had the Mossad steal the blueprints and stuck the GE79 motor in it (quite a feat of engineering to make it fit) and threw in some homegrown avionics. I think those are the main differences. Don't know about the mirage V, but I heard if a kfir isn't leaking fuel it's tanks are empty. Anyone in the know about this?

DeltaGuy wrote;

Unfortunately they can't really turn for shit, but they're neat lookin!

Especially not when Doug Masters and Chappy decided "we're not gonna take it". The kfir can't hold a candle when Dougs' got his rythym going  Big grin
 
ghostbase
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RE: IAI Kfir

Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:40 am

*Nice* photo DeltaGuy, thanks.

The first generation Mirage deltas were very hot birds in the 60's however, as you rightly observe, they were so draggy in any sort of turn, fortunately the opposition was likely to be the MiG-21 which had similar problems. IIRC the USMC operated some Kfirs as the F-21 Lion for a couple of years in the early 80's out of Yuma.

As a nine year old child in 1967 I remember the Israeli Mirage III absolutely beating the hell out of several Arab air forces in high speed slashing attacks, probably a lot like the F-104 was designed to operate back then. The last major operators of the first generation Mirage were the Belgians with the Mirage V and the Swiss with the Mirage IIIS and the IIIRS which survived until just a couple of years ago.

Had the Cold War turned hot in the early 80's as it came so close to doing I wonder how these first generation Mirage deltas would have fared. I think they would have done quite well but that is a personal opinion, nothing more.

'Ghostbase'
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HaveBlue
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RE: IAI Kfir

Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:06 am

You are correct Ghost, Kfirs were indeed used by the USMC or USN for aggressor training and designated F-21.
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DeltaGuy
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RE: IAI Kfir

Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:56 am

Thanks Michael...I took that shot on Monday, they had one there that was waiting to go do an exercise with the Kennedy....they'll have 6 of them coming mid march Big grin I'll make sure to get some pics, the ATAC pilots are pretty nice guys.

Quoting Duce50boom (reply 2):
Don't know about the mirage V, but I heard if a kfir isn't leaking fuel it's tanks are empty. Anyone in the know about this?


No kidding...I fuel these beasts whenever they come into Cecil...not only do they lack a single-point fueling system, but they take fuel in SIX different places! (2 wing drop tanks, one huge two-tanked belly tank, and two central tanks you have to climb up on the wing for). The jet has almost 0 internal fuel capacity, so there's always drop tanks. Whenever we've made the mistake of letting their groundcrews do it, they'll routinely spill 5-10 gallons on the ramp. I've come out to the jet, checked one of the fuel tanks, and fuel will come spilling out of the cap on the other end of the tank! Plus, when they land, they spew about 3 gallons onto the ramp, just part of their shutdown thing I guess...better have the bucket handy. I'm sure you see the buckets by them in these two photos...that's precisely why.

Alot of the parts on that jet are still in Hebrew (whatever they write in over there lol)...interesting to see.

My uncle was actually rather influential in getting the F-21's to come over here..he was program director for the AMRAAM missle for quite some time, and wanted them here for that aggressor work..not totally sure why, but I'm sure a couple of beers and he'll tell me the whole story  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

DeltaGuy
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JGPH1A
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:14 am

The Denel Cheetah (built in South Africa) was a local variant of the Kfir built onto existing SAAF Mirage III frames, with the same engine as the Mirage III (I think), but with updated radar.


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LY744
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:05 am

Quoting Duce50boom (reply 2):
From what I can remember Israel ordered the Mirage V but then the frogs canceled the order when they realized that the arabs had the oil. Israel still liked the V so they had the Mossad steal the blueprints and stuck the GE79 motor in it (quite a feat of engineering to make it fit) and threw in some homegrown avionics.


No, you're thinking about the IAI Nesher. That was an exact copy of the Mirage V, 50 of which were ordered but never delivered. The blueprints were obtained with the silent consent of the French government and Dassault's co-operation. All 50 were built in Israel by IAI, equipped with the French Atar 9 engines (again, identical to the Mirage V).

The Kfir, which was progressively modified and improved by the IAI throughout its various versions, went into production sometime in late 1973 or early 1974. It was equipped with the GE J79 engine, and, IIRC, a Martin Baker ejection seat. The original Kfir testbed was a converted Mirage/Nesher, the rest (200-300 or so) were new builts. Export customers include Sri Lanka and Columbia (as well as another South American nation whose name escapes me at the moment, but they did use the Kfir operationally, shooting down some enemy [Peruvian?] aircraft). Due to the timing of the Kfir's introduction into large scale service with the IDF/AF (coinciding with the arrival of the first F-15s followed 4 years later by the first batch of F-16s), the Kfir was used mostly for mud-moving and never really got to be a front line fighter. The only time an IDF/AF Kfir got to score a kill was in 1979 and even then it was in an ambush alongside a bunch of Eagles (the kill is shared with an Eagle driver). One Kfir was lost to AAA in Lebanon in 1983, pilot (squadron CO) captured by friendly Lebanese forces and returned to Israel the same day.


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Venus6971
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:14 am

but they take fuel in SIX different places! (2 wing drop tanks, one huge two-tanked belly tank, and two central tanks you have to climb up on the wing for). The jet has almost 0 internal fuel capacity,

I will second that, pain in the butt to service plus when you have depressurize the fuel system to pull down them levers on the belly. With them dumping fuel on shut down, hey it's got a J-79 in it what do you want. Hopefully its maintenance troops is there with extra drag chutes. We had to take care of one on our own with help from the pilots when there Crew Chief got stopped by TSA in San Diego trying to check drag chutes through and somebody thought they were a bomb.
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aeroweanie
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:21 am

The Israelis first bought 75 Mirage IIICJs (including two CRJs and three BJs). Then, they ordered 50 Mirage VJs. The French embargoed the order after the Israeli attack on the Beirut airport in 1968.

The first IAI Nesher was actually a French built Mirage V - I've seen the data plate and its clearly marked as "built in France". IAI assembled 50 Neshers and 10 2-seat Neshers. Where the parts came from, who knows? A lot of these aircraft were later sold to Argentina as "Daggers". Also, the surviving Mirage IIICJs also ended up in Argentina.

Needing more aircraft, the Israelis then fitted the GE J79 (from the F-4E) to the Nesher airframe to create the Kfir. 175 were built, including 10 2-seaters. Some ended up in South Africa as Cheetahs.

For more info, see: http://home.sprynet.com/~anneled/IAFinventory.html
 
bennett123
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:09 am

JGPH1A

I think that the Cheetah used the Atar 9K-50, like the Mir F1.
 
keesje
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:37 am

I believe there was a Swiss engineer Alfred Frauenknecht stole the blueprints of the Mirage he feld it was his duty to help the Israel.

I don´t know if the following text is objective, the title of the piece suggests otherwise.


Are all who risk their lives for the State of Israel to be treated with the same disdain and disposability with which Israel treated Alfred Frauenknecht? In the late 1960's, Frauenknecht, a Jewish Swiss engineer, stole the blueprints and the specifications for the precise machine tools used in the French-Swiss Mirage Jet Fighter Plane, and gave them to Israel. The Jewish State used the blueprints to build the Kfir fighter plane. When Frauenknecht was caught, Israel disowned him and abandoned him to his fate. The Swiss Judge who sentenced Frauenknecht in 1971 was so appalled by the way that Israel had treated him, that he was moved to reduce Frauenknecht's sentence as a gesture of consolation.

The Government of Israel did not invite Frauenknecht to the grand unveiling of the Kfir aircraft, which took place after his release from prison. Some Israeli pilots took pity on Frauenknecht, who was left destitute after his incarceration. They chipped in to send him a plane ticket to attend the event, which they knew would never have taken place, were it not for him. Frauenknecht attended but was not allowed to view the unveiling of the plane from the VIP grandstand. He had to stand with the common folk on the ground. When top Israel officials discovered that Frauenknecht was in attendance, he was immediately asked to leave. Security staff quickly and quietly escorted him out.

http://www.jonathanpollard.org/2005/010905.htm

From what I undrstand the J79 wasn´t as good for the aircraft as the original Atar´s.
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ghostbase
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:57 am

Quoting LY744 (reply 7):
as well as another South American nation whose name escapes me at the moment, but they did use the Kfir operationally, shooting down some enemy [Peruvian?] aircraft


It was Ecuador which operated one squadron of Kfir C2s. They had a territorial dispute with Peru in 1995 and had three confirmed aerial kills but my source does not elaborate on the what they killed or how they did it.

The same source suggests that some of the original MIIICJs were also re-engined with the J-79 and named the Barak (Lightning) but this has never been confirmed.

A fascinating aircraft!
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L-188
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:31 am

The South Africans where looking at putting the engine from the Mig-29 into their Cheetahs. I don't know how far along they got with that idea.




Quoting Keesje (reply 11):
From what I undrstand the J79 wasn´t as good for the aircraft as the original Atar´s.


It is completely inconcivable to me that any French engine could be better then an American one.

Ok. Nationalistic rant over  Laugh out loud

Actually the original engine for the Mirages was supposed to be the Canadian Iroqouis from the CF-105 Arrow, but was cancelled along with that aircraft in one of the dumbest moves ever by the Canadian Government. I think that an order for something like 100+ plants had allready been signed.

The French suddenly without an engine then had to design their legendary ATAR engine.
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ghostbase
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:39 am

Quoting L-188 (reply 13):
It is completely inconcivable to me that any French engine could be better then an American one.


LOL! You certainly know how to make friends and influence people!

I have watched more than a few French Mirage 2000Cs display at airshows and their SNECMA M53-P2 powerplants are recognisedly much more 'raw' in their output in full burner than the current F-15/F-16/F-18 models, definitely a difference. The French aerospace industry still produces very impressive aircraft and powerplants.
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ramprat74
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:07 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (reply 9):


After looking over that webpage. I can't believe all the IAF aircraft that were shot down from SAMs or enemy aircraft. I always thought the IAF was top-notch, even back then. Wow.
 
L-188
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Mirages

Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:08 am

Hey I have to stick up for the home team  Big thumbs up


Quoting Ghostbase (reply 14):
have watched more than a few French Mirage 2000Cs display at airshows and their SNECMA M53-P2 powerplants are recognisedly much more 'raw' in their output in full burner than the current F-15/F-16/F-18 models, definitely a difference. The French aerospace industry still produces very impressive aircraft and powerplants.


The difference there being is that you need to figure the M53 had about 10 years of learning curve to the F100 or the F110. I would argue that if they aren't different generations of engines, then they are at least bookends, the American motors coming earlier and the French ones later. I would hope the laters design would learn from others work Big grin


Hey remember this line from "Chappie", "You know those SAM sites have French Radar? Means you can fool em' with foil"
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Duce50Boom
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:24 am

My bad, thanks LY744 and Aeroweanie for setting me straight on that.

L-188 I loved that quote! Retarded on so many levels....My fav is near the end, something along the lines of: "Colonel, Would you mind if we flew the missing man formation for Chappie?"...... Lead comes back with "We're already set up for it, and we'd be honored SIR if you'd scoot in there and take the lead". Give me a f**king break! As if the movie wasn't dumb enough.....the original flight lead might as well have saluted as Doug flew past him, it wouldn't have made the movie any more lame. Now if he'd told that kid to shut up and color; that he's lucky they didn't fire an AIM-9 up his tailpipe.....that would be MUCH more realistic.
 
L-188
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:59 am

So tell us Duce.....Will a Maverick fire while still on the ground?

For those who think I am a little too critical of the fellows at Dassault. I would point out that in my aircraft of the Alaska Defense Forces postings, I have them flying the Mirage also.
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LY744
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:16 pm

Quoting Ghostbase (reply 12):
The same source suggests that some of the original MIIICJs were also re-engined with the J-79 and named the Barak (Lightning) but this has never been confirmed.


That never happened. In the mid 70's the Israelis did re-engine their remaining IIICJ's with the Atar 9C instead of the original Atar 9A (you can tell by the new style exhaust nozzles on the C as opposed to the clam shell design on the A).


Quoting Ramprat74 (reply 15):
After looking over that webpage. I can't believe all the IAF aircraft that were shot down from SAMs or enemy aircraft. I always thought the IAF was top-notch, even back then. Wow.


Odd statement. But anyhoo, you would notice that most of those losses took place in a certain two and a half week period in October of 1973... What you can't tell from the list, and is just as important, is that the IDF/AF suffered no losses in June of 1982. That however is the subject of a whole different thread.


Quoting L-188 (reply 13):
It is completely inconcivable to me that any French engine could be better then an American one


Without getting too carried away it is worth noting that the early Atar 9s were notoriously unreliable (probably one of the reasons the Israelis bothered re-engining their ageing Mirage III fleet with -9Cs even though the aircraft were less than a decade away from retirement).


LY744.
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Duce50Boom
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:16 pm

L-188 wrote:

So tell us Duce.....Will a Maverick fire while still on the ground?

"There's only one way to find out"

It happened on the movie, so I'm sure it can happen in real life! The refueling too, loved that one--a kid who for the most part has only flown simulators takes his bird under a 135 a couple times and no one is the wiser. Riiiiight. Maybe he can teach the guys going through pipeline at Luke how to do it so smoothly.

For real though, not sure, I don't know if just putting the master arm to ARM will let you fire while there's still weight on the landing gear. Perhaps LY744 is in the know?
 
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:20 pm

Quoting LY744 (reply 19):
Without getting too carried away it is worth noting that the early Atar 9s were notoriously unreliable (probably one of the reasons the Israelis bothered re-engining their ageing Mirage III fleet with -9Cs even though the aircraft were less than a decade away from retirement).


Well we can blame former PM Diffenbaker for that now can't we  Pissed

What other idiot would destroy an advance technology program like an airplane engine, that could prove to be an major national industry....AND HAS ORDERS!!!
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L-188
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:22 pm

Quoting Duce50boom (reply 20):
Maybe he can teach the guys going through pipeline at Luke how to do it so smoothly.


Oh I am sure that he is now an instructor in those USAF A-4 Skyhawks that where in the background of that one hanger scene....you know the one where they light off the string of black-cats to get access to the computer to schedual a training flight?
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L-188
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:28 pm

Quoting LY744 (reply 19):
But anyhoo, you would notice that most of those losses took place in a certain two and a half week period in October of 1973...


Wasn't that the infamous "Electric Summer" due to all the ECM from Israeli and Egyption combat operations screwing up everybody's radio and TV reception in Europe?


Also I think the introduction of the SA-6 and ZSU-23-4 proved to be a particularly nasty surprise.
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Duce50Boom
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:39 pm

Oh yeah I remember that one now. I didn't realize it was an A-4 though. I gotta look out for that next time. I know it's not very suspicious when someone who looks 15 years old walks into a hangar wearing dress blues and holding fireworks in his hands.

It could've been worse though: He could've taken out his aggression by taking his shirt off (while wearing his dad's dog tags) and, along with Chappie, challenging those dastardly Libyan "BASTARDS!!!!!" to a game of sand volleyball. Glad hollywood would never stoop that low. Thankfully
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:34 pm

Oh I am sure that he is now an instructor in those USAF A-4 Skyhawks that where in the background of that one hanger scene...

Sorta hard to do that when you get shot down by an F-4 flown by Russians who are calling it a MiG-29 as happened in Iron Eagle II!

My question though is this...how many 30mm rounds can the G-Pod on an F-16 carry? Well that and how is it possible to "make up time" by putting on some music? I guess Doug's rhythm truly was a marvelous thing! And his dad...what a guy...a colonel saluting a major first. LOL. Still a fun movie to watch. Anyway, better jet...I think I hear a Packer-32 flying overhead!

[Edited 2005-03-01 05:35:12]
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Duce50Boom
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:52 pm

Garnet,

I think I can put your questions to rest. Being in the AF I'm privy to these sort of things.....

The "F-4" you speak of was nothing less than the B model Mig-29. It was designed that way so us yanks would be confused in air combat by merging with what appears to e another "american pirate aircraft". Unfortunately, due to budget cuts, the USSR didn't buy that year's copy of Jane's All The World's Aircraft so they didn't know the F-4 was being replaced. They would've saved billions of rubles had they simply spent the 50 dollars or so. A sad story.....

The info on the F-16's "30mm" bullet regenerator is classified. In fact, if ask anyone in the know about it they are legally required to say "what the f**k are you talking about?". Sorry, but you don't have a need to know.

The info gleamed from Doug during his debrief at Ramstein AB is classified as "Double Top Secret". It was knowledge of his fuel conserving and rythym techniques (not to be confused with Superfly's rythym techniques) that enabled the US and certain privelaged coalition allies to mount (sts) such a stunning victory over Iraq in the gulf war I. The air victories in that conflict, something like US-45, Iraq-0 were directly attributable to Doug's selfless service, outstanding airmanship, and uncanny ability to pick out the great tunes of the mid 80s. Unfortunately all the public knows about him is that he flew over to greet his dad after his rescue and that he was accepted to the AF academy. And that's how it will stay until 2029
 
LY744
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:52 pm

Quoting L-188 (reply 23):
Also I think the introduction of the SA-6 and ZSU-23-4 proved to be a particularly nasty surprise.


ZSU-23-4: Yes, somewhat. SA-6: only in a psychological sense, in reality it scored few kills on both the Syrian and Egyptian fronts. The older SA-3 was far more succesful. But the SA-6 did help Egypt and Syria restrict the IDF/AF's ability to operate in support of IDF ground forces. The SA-7 is also not to be forgotten, although it appeared in the Middle East and was known to the west prior to the 1973 war, it was not before used as extensively alongside ground forces. Although the SA-7 did not cause an extensive number of IDF/AF write offs it did damage many aircraft, and, much as with the SA-6, its mere presence and numerous launches disrupted countless IDF/AF ground attack sorties, often leaving IDF ground forces with little to no air support.

The one thing that really killed the IDF/AF in that war (aside from U.S. pressure on Israel not to initiate combat activities) was intelligence, or lack thereof. Much of the front line aerial recce photos taken during the conflict were not delivered to the operational squadrons until after the war was over... This often meant that IDF/AF crews were pulling up to strike SAM/AAA sites that were no longer there, while new sites popped up nearby, getting easy shots at vulnerable attack aircraft.

The situation did improve as the war went on. From the list referrenced earlier in the thread, one can note that most losses took places on Oct 7,8, and 9 (or the 2-4th days of the war). These days marked, among other things, some rather forced attempts to destroy the air defense chain on the Syrian front, and to stop the advancement of Egyptian ground forces accross the Suez canal (well covered by stationary SAM systems from behind the front lines as well as mobile systems escorting the advancing Egyptian army formations). October 12th and on saw a somewhat greater emphasis on striking targets deeper within Syria and Egypt (air bases among other things), as well as more organized and systematic attacks against Egypt's/Syria's air defense systems, with much greater success than the efforts of the war's first few days. This was made possible once IDF ground forces were able to stop the advancement of the Arab armies and began taking initiative, negating the desperate need for close air support from the air force.


Quoting Duce50boom (reply 20):
For real though, not sure, I don't know if just putting the master arm to ARM will let you fire while there's still weight on the landing gear. Perhaps LY744 is in the know?



Wouldn't really know, but I do imagine it depends first and foremost on the airframe in question. Perhaps possible on the good old Phantom... Come to think of it, isn't the -65, or some of its versions, drop-launched? Dropping one of those babies on the tarmac with the engine going would be quite the sight!  Laugh out loud


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garnetpalmetto
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:56 pm

LOL @ Duce...thanks for giving me a laugh tonight man!
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Duce50Boom
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:00 pm

No worries dude. I help out where I can
 
aeroweanie
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RE: IAI Kfir

Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:24 am

Keesje:

Alfred Frauenknecht only sold Atar drawings to the Israelis. I am pretty sure that the drawings, jigs and probably parts for the Neshers came from France.
 
citjet
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RE: IAI Kfir

Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:56 am

How about the gorgeous Lavi that the Israeli's were building off of the F-16? The Kfir is just another of the most beautifull machines that the French put out of their factories. Would love to see one up close.
 
L-188
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RE: IAI Kfir

Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:34 pm

Quoting Citjet (reply 31):
How about the gorgeous Lavi that the Israeli's were building off of the F-16?


I think they sold the plans of that to the Chinese and they are going to make it as the J-12 or something.
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aeroweanie
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RE: IAI Kfir

Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:07 pm

L-188:

Lavi

J-10
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: IAI Kfir

Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:36 am

I think they sold the plans of that to the Chinese and they are going to make it as the J-12 or something.

I'm a little disturbed by this. Israel selling what is essentially OUR technology to our enemy/potential enemy. Whatever became of the J-10?

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
LY744
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RE: IAI Kfir

Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:44 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (reply 34):
I'm a little disturbed by this. Israel selling what is essentially OUR technology to our enemy/potential enemy


So fighter jets in general are considered "U.S. technology" now?  Insane

FYI, what the Lavi and the F-16 have in common is that they both have one engine with the intake located under the fuselage. The Lavi is a scaled down development of a large, twin engined, delta/canard winged fighter the Israelis and Iranians were jointly developing in the 70's, prior to Iran's new regime taking over.


LY744.
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L-188
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RE: IAI Kfir

Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:35 am

The J-10, Thanks for the photos Aeroweanie.

BTW:Great handle.

Is it just me or is that J-10 hanging Mavericks?

LY744, my understanding is that the Israeli's got a lot of inspiration for the Lavi and it's platform from the F-16's we sold them.
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aeroweanie
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RE: IAI Kfir

Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:34 am

I didn't look carefully at the picture before - you're right, they sure do look like Mavericks!
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: IAI Kfir

Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:33 am

So fighter jets in general are considered "U.S. technology" now?

Like L-188 said, the Lavi borrowed from the F-16. Look at it's tail and nose shape. Why didn't Israel just skip the middle man and have the F-16s themselves shipped to China? :-/

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LY744
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RE: IAI Kfir

Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:04 pm

Quoting Boeing4ever (reply 38):
Like L-188 said, the Lavi borrowed from the F-16. Look at it's tail and nose shape.


Um, how about you look at the fact that it has a delta wing and canards? Just like that other Israeli fighter project that I mentioned had. You could make much more of an argument for the F-15 being Soviet technology because it generally resembles the MiG-25. Think about it, twin engines, twin tails, high mounted swept wing with conventional tail, engine intakes mounted on the side of the fuselage, and the list goes on...


LY744.
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Boeing4ever
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RE: IAI Kfir

Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:41 am

Quoting LY744 (reply 39):
Um, how about you look at the fact that it has a delta wing and canards? Just like that other Israeli fighter project that I mentioned had. You could make much more of an argument for the F-15 being Soviet technology because it generally resembles the MiG-25. Think about it, twin engines, twin tails, high mounted swept wing with conventional tail, engine intakes mounted on the side of the fuselage, and the list goes on...



Umm, the F-15 and MiG 25 share some genaric similarities, but few would call them "borrowed" from each other. Plus, it's known that the US spent a lot on the F-15 fighter to combat the Foxbat...only to find the Foxbat was an interceptor, while they had a nifty new air-superiority fighter. The US and the USSR were in the middle of a Cold War.


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Now take a close look at the F-16 vs. the Lavi...


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http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/6556/lavi1.jpg

The nose and the V-stab design are strikingly similar. So long as none of the avionics or anything else truly advanced was given to the Chinese, it won't be that big of a problem.

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LY744
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:01 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (reply 40):
the F-15 and MiG 25 share some genaric similarities


Wow, and the F-16 and the Lavi go beyond that? You know what, forget it, I'll just christen this new smiley instead:  banghead 

I know I'll regret this, but here, read this: http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/lavi.html


LY744.
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curlyheadboy
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:26 am

There is also that Taiwanese HHAI Ching-Kuo (a.k.a. IDF) very similar to an F-16, are they operational...?
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L-188
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:53 am

I wouldn't call that similar.

The Ching-Kuo is a twin motor and each has it's own intake.

From the top it does look simular but considering the aerodynamics of modern fighters and vortex generation that isn't surprising.
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Boeing4ever
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:14 am

Save the smiley LY, you'll need your eyesight since you clearly seem to think Israel developed its own machine with the Lavi. Interesting article you linked, 40% of the development costs were funded by the US government...the result being that part of what we paid for ended up going to China. Doesn't help your case.

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curlyheadboy
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RE: IAI Kfir

Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:06 pm

Quoting L-188 (reply 43):
The Ching-Kuo is a twin motor and each has it's own intake.

From the top it does look simular but considering the aerodynamics of modern fighters and vortex generation that isn't surprising.


Well, it still looks similar to me, despite the two engines... Now IIRC, Taiwan wanted the F-16 but the US refused to sell them, so they went for their own fighter with a lot of support from the same US companies who built the F-16. An elegant way to make the business and deal with politic issues altogether.  tongue 
That's an interesting machine I know very few about...
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L-188
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RE: IAI Kfir

Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:41 am

Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 45):
Now IIRC, Taiwan wanted the F-16 but the US refused to sell them, so they went for their own fighter with a lot of support from the same US companies who built the F-16


There is a great quote that is attributed to some Soviet designer who claimed that "Form follows function"

There is a ring of truth to that.
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LY744
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RE: IAI Kfir

Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 44):
you'll need your eyesight since you clearly seem to think Israel developed its own machine with the Lavi


The first things my eyes see are the delta wing/canards, the different landing gear, the different vertical stab, different hardpoint configuration, different canopy, different intake shape etc. Then I look at the stats and see the different take off and payload weights, different wing area and loading, different fuel capacity, different radar, and the fact that the Lavi was designed around a two-seat cockpit among other things. But it does have a bottom mounted intake, and seeing as it's a single engined light fighter then it must be a copy of the F-16 (just like every Soviet/Russian/Ukrainian aircraft is really just an inferior copy of an American design).

Were the designers of the Lavi somehow inspired by the F-16? Probably. But then you'd have to say the same about the Eurofighter as well. And they sure as hell weren't more so inspired by the F-16 than the designers of the F-15 were by the MiG-25. Quite frankly, your inability to either see or admit to that very simple quantative fact is none of my concern.

P.S. I was surprised to learn that the U.S. footed 40% of the development bill for the Lavi, I thought they paid more.


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eksath
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RE: IAI Kfir

Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:20 pm

Here is the IAI KFir in Sri Lanka Air Force service. THese machines have been used in Air to Ground operations against Tamil LTTE terrorists. A few years ago, they also were used to sink a gun running freighter.


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LY744
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RE: IAI Kfir

Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:06 pm

Cool picture Eksath, but those are Floggers.


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