Boeing4ever
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US Navy To Sink The USS America

Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:30 am

So it appears the USS America, one of the oil-fired Kitty Hawk class aircraft carriers will be used for target practice so the Navy can learn how much punishment a supercarrier can take. Of note, it will be the largest warship and aircraft carrier ever sunk, eclipsing both Yamato-class battleships sunk which includes the Shinano (completed as a carrier).

Also, the Oriskany will become an artificial reef.

All of this of course will be met with some resistance from the former crew of the America.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7081234/



Shame the media won't be allowed to see it. I personally am curious myself as to how much of a beating she'll take. I'm sure the Navy will eventually declassify what footage they collect...but it'll be awhile.

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ghostbase
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:08 pm

Just dredging the depths of my memory but wasn't a carrier used as a target in one of the Bikini Atoll H-Bomb tests? Was one of the surplus WW2 carriers which had taken a battering during the war and was surplus to requirements, would not have been an Essex however might have been one of the Independence class.

I hate it when my memory does this!
"I chase my dreams but I never seem to arrive"
 
sidishus
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:44 pm

That was the old Sara CV-3. She and the other ships at Bikini are now a popular dive attraction.
http://www.aquasafaris.com/pages/travel/bikini.html
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/n80000/n84312.jpg
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/s200000/s259372.jpg

[Edited 2005-03-04 09:45:18]
the truth: first it is ridiculed second it is violently opposed finally it is accepted as self-evident
 
sidishus
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:57 pm

And the USS Oriskany is about to be sunk as a dive reef off Pensacola...As soon as some environmental squabbles get squared away.


http://www.ussoriskany.com/id18.html
the truth: first it is ridiculed second it is violently opposed finally it is accepted as self-evident
 
sidishus
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:12 pm

Quoting Ghostbase (reply 1):
Was one of the surplus WW2 carriers which had taken a battering during the war and was surplus to requirements, would not have been an Essex however might have been one of the Independence class.

You were right about the Independence ...(Forgot about this one)
http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/022206.jpg

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/022207.jpg
the truth: first it is ridiculed second it is violently opposed finally it is accepted as self-evident
 
aeroweanie
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:37 pm

Regarding the USS Independence (quoting navsource.org):

"Assigned as a target vessel for the Bikini atomic bomb tests (Operation Crossroads), she was placed within one-half mile of ground zero for the 1 July 1946 explosion. She did not sink, however, and after taking part in another explosion on the 25 July was taken to Kwajalein. The highly radioactive hulk was later taken to Pearl Harbor and San Francisco for further tests and was finally sunk in weapons tests off the coast of California 29 January 1951."
 
ghostbase
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:06 am

Thanks for the information. It was the USS Independence I was thinking of, had not realised that the USS Saratoga had shared the same fate. Seems a bit ungrateful given her war record  Sad
"I chase my dreams but I never seem to arrive"
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:46 am

Quoting Ghostbase (reply 6):
Thanks for the information. It was the USS Independence I was thinking of, had not realised that the USS Saratoga had shared the same fate. Seems a bit ungrateful given her war record


Well the USS Enterprise CV-6 didn't meet a fitting end either. Such a great war record for the Yorktown class carrier, and in the end she's scrapped as if she were a floating junk whore.

Granted, the US has sunk carriers in the past...but this is the first of the "super carriers" that'll be sent to the bottom. These tests are important, the navy says, in order to study what they may need to do for future carrier designs.

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Stimpy
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:55 am

Well the only good thing is that the OTHER Saratoga lives on. ( CVA-60 ) Actually I can see the her and the Forrestal everday from my room here at NS Newport. A lot of history on those carriers.....just hope that they do get used as floating museum's just as some of the others.

USS Saratoga and USS Forrestal
 
747400sp
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:14 am

The USS America was an interesting carrier, she was the only U.S. aircraft carrier to use sonar, that why it's port anchor was located in the middle of her bow. The USS John F. Kennedy had the same lay out but never had sonar. The USS America never got a SLEP and I herd it was because her hull was made of thin steal to save money, for that reason she was decommion early. In Desert Storm she operate in the Persian Gulf and the RED SEA, she was the only carrier at the time to do that.
 
dl021
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:57 am

There was also a difference in construction technique that rendered it more susceptible to structural weakening over the long term.

This useful fate for a proud ship is perfectly honorable as the data gathered will help protect the force in the future. It beats the hell out of getting dragged to a breakers yard on Baltimore or perhaps Goa.

I hope that the Navy finds a way to put another capital vessel out there with the name as soon as possible.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:20 am

What a shame.....the USS America foundation attempted to save her for a long time, but the Navy said it would not go to donation status for reasons of the hull being so unsecure. She sure does look beat up in that harbor...the Navy sure does let em go to shit.

At least Saratoga and Forestal are hopefully going to be spared- one has a beautiful name, and one is where alot of brave men gave their lives one day.

Indy, Connie, Ranger, and (maybe too soon) Kennedy, will be interesting to see where they end up.

DeltaGuy
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FlagshipAZ
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:05 am

Where's the Kitty Hawk? Forrestal being the oldest of the fossil-fuel supercarriers may have a pretty good chance as being as memorial. And she has indeed seen more than her fair share of tragedy. Here's the fossil-fuel carriers I know of that are still afloat.

Yorktown CV-10 (museum)
Intrepid CV-11 (museum)
Hornet CV-12 (museum)
Lexington CV-16 (museum)
Oriskany CV-34
Midway CVA-41 (museum)
Forrestal CVA-59
Saratoga CV-60
Ranger CV-61
Independence CV-62
Kitty Hawk CV-63
Constellation CV-64
America CV-66
John F. Kennedy CV-67

Looking back on this list...how many will be deep-sixed one day? Regards.
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DeltaGuy
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:22 pm

Wow...that's alot of supercarriers, but not alot of small decks...guess their time was gone a long time ago.

My cheap speculation about the non-museum boats.
Oriskany- will dive upon her decks one day
Forrestal- Museum in Baltimore
Staratoga- Museum in Sarasota?
Ranger- Museum in Everett
Indy- Ready reserve for some time, then who knows what.
Kitty Hawk- Serving for some time, then ready reserve
Connie- Striken, so who knows right now
America- Unforunately sinking  Sad
Kennedy- Museum, Kennedy family will see to it.

Remember, once all the fossil fuelers are gone, we'll have nothing but nukes, and the Nimitz will be around for quite awhile...so we'll have to keep 3 or so in mothballs for certain occasions. The Big E will be an interesting situation too, the first nuke flattop to be decommed.

If the talks with Japan don't work, we'll either have to pull the carrier force out of there, or keep the Kitty Hawk in good shape till then. Here in Jax, they were talking about putting Kennedy in mothballs, and when Kitty Hawk gets too old, retiring her, and bringing Kennedy back on line to take her place...sounds like freezing a ship to me!

I guess we're lucky in that nobody will really undertake the project of scrapping a Supercarrier, as the costs far outweigh the benefits- look at the Coral Sea dismantling. In hindsight, scuttling her would have been a much better ending...anything to avoid the torch.

DeltaGuy
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747400sp
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:28 pm

I would like to see photo her sonar. I wonder did it make her draft deeper.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:31 pm

Hey Stimpy (or anyone else who would know)....

In that nice aerial photo, what is that large ship all the way to the right of the frame? Is it perhaps the Glomar Explorer, the ship used in the Jenny Project? (recovered that Russian nuke sub in the Pacific)

DeltaGuy
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Stimpy
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:11 pm

Oh that? Well that happens to be a MSC ( Military Sealift Command ) supply ship of some sort. She was in port back in August-September for quite a while onloading god knows what. They have a driveable ramp in the back for what ever they want to put in the cargo hold. To the left of that , are three USCG buoy tenders which are stationed here in Newport.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:14 am

Quoting FlagshipAZ (reply 12):
Where's the Kitty Hawk?

The Kitty Hawk is now homeported at NS Yukoska, Japan. It moved from Coronado when the Indy was decommed.
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DeltaGuy
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:09 am

Ahh thanks Stimpy....looked like a pretty big boat to me.

I did some research, the Glomar Explorer was actually laid up in the MSC reserve fleet in San Feancisco for quite some time, now she's out doing civilian work of some sort.

DeltaGuy
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Woodreau
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That Ship On The Right

Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:42 am

When I was flying around Providence, I was tempted to do a touch and go on one of those carriers. Just turn off the transponder do a touch and go and check back in with Providence after doing a landing at Newport.

One of the carriers has its mast taken off and stored on the flight deck... too close to the angled for my comfort. I don't think I would have had the wing clearance to do it safely. But the touch and go thought lasted about 30 seconds. There are power lines at the departure end of the carrier bows that would made that touch and go impractical.

That ship all the way over on the right with the Ro-Ro ramp from the stern to the quaywall is a T-AKR operated by the Military Sealift Command. I don't know if it is one of the new Bob Hope class ships. Its mission is strategic sealift and it is used as part of the Maritime Prepositioning Force. A squadron of five T-AKRs can carry the vehicles/tanks/trucks/equipment and 30 days of supplies (ammunition / fuel / POL) for just one heavy armored brigade.

One ship is equivalent to the lift capacity of about 1,000 C-5 sorties to move the same amount of equipment. e.g. one armored brigade = 5,000 C-5 sorties.

4 brigades to a division / 3 divisions took part in Iraqi Freedom in 2003, 9 divisions took part in Desert Storm in 1991. (There are only 10 active divisions in the whole US Army today)
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:17 pm

Quoting 747400sp (reply 9):
The USS America was an interesting carrier, she was the only U.S. aircraft carrier to use sonar


Not quite, 747400sp. She was the only supercarrier to mount sonar, but some of the Essex-class carriers that were modified to serve as CVSs, including Essex herself mounted SQS-23 sonars under the FRAM II SCB-144 upgrade. The carriers that underwent that upgrade were Essex, Yorktown, Intrepid, Hornet, Randolph, Wasp, Bennington, Boxer, Kearsarge, Princeton, and Valley Forge.

In a way, this will be a sad fate for the ship, but hopefully all that will be gleaned from her sinking will help the next class of supercarriers be even stronger. Interestingly enough, the USN has agreed to allow the USS America Carrier Veterans Association to place a time capsule aboard the ship before she is scuttled.

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DeltaGuy
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:38 pm

I too read that on the USS America Association pages...it has to be limited to paper items only, but at least they're letting them do that!!! They already had a final farewell for a few hundred crewmembers that showed up, gave em one last look at their boat. Apparently they weren't allowed to go below decks (like the O-3 level), as CIC and other areas still contain quite a bit of classified equipment...interesting that some of that stuff is still aboard! How much will be stripped off the ship before sending her out? I'd like to think they'd save as much as they could, things that wouldn't necessarily contribute to the experiment (anchors, Captain's chair, signs, furnature, Ready Room stuff, etc), or strip more gear for other boats still serving. Also that classified gear, you wouldn't want all that sitting in the open Atlantic would you?

Thinking about going to Pensacola for spring break (in addition to the legendary Panama City Big grinD) to see the NMNA, and the USS Oriskany moored at the pier, before she makes her last cruise as well.

DeltaGuy
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L-188
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:06 pm

Quoting Boeing4ever (reply 7):
Well the USS Enterprise CV-6 didn't meet a fitting end either. Such a great war record for the Yorktown class carrier, and in the end she's scrapped as if she were a floating junk whore.


I personally think that one of the worst things that the Navy ever did was send the Enterprise (CV) to the breakers after WWII. There was a ship that should have been preserved.

I under stand that 5 portholes from the earlier ship where saved and installed on the Enterprise CVN when she was built.
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L-188
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:21 pm

And to go with my earlier posting.





And ten days before she was sold for scrap.

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Stimpy
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:11 pm

Wow, those are some awesome historical pics! Where do you get these at? I wouldn't mind looking through those pics to back when. God it's amazing how much carrier aviation has changed within the past 50 years. Back when I was deployed on board Connie, as old as she was, she still had a lot of interesting experiences to give on her last deployment. We once had to accomadate 50+ knots of wind on the flight deck in order for a Hornet, with it's failed leading edge flap on one wing , to land safely without the pilot ejecting.
 
SATL382G
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:30 am

Quoting L-188 (reply 22):
I personally think that one of the worst things that the Navy ever did was send the Enterprise (CV) to the breakers after WWII. There was a ship that should have been preserved.


L-188 -- Interesting pics. The "Big E" compares favorably with the carrier on the other side of the pier. I didn't think she was that big...

Wasn't Admiral Halsey involved in an effort to save her from the scrappers? If Halsey couldn't get it done it probably wasn't doable....

regards
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:16 am

Quoting SATL382G (reply 25):
The "Big E" compares favorably with the carrier on the other side of the pier. I didn't think she was that big...


To compare:

Yorktown-class
Length: 809.5'
Beam: 83.25'

Forrestal-class (specifically USS Independence)
Length: 1,046'
Beam: 130'
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
L-188
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:22 am

Quoting Stimpy (reply 24):
Wow, those are some awesome historical pics!


http://www.history.navy.mil

This is the US Navy Historical center.



There is another great site, I can't remember the name at the moment that I used to use also, again official photos of USN ships. But it has a lot more of the smaller ships photos then the navy site has

Quoting SATL382G (reply 25):
Wasn't Admiral Halsey involved in an effort to save her from the scrappers?


I don't know, but I wouldn't disagree with that statement.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
LMP737
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:04 am

Even though these tests will give the Navy an idea the amount of punishment a carrier can take it will not give them a completely accurate picture. Reason being you will not have damage control teams fighting fires or plugging leaks.
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DeltaGuy
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:43 am

LMP hit it on the head....plus, they keep saying the America has a very weak hull with much cheaper steel....unlike today's Nimitz Class, Newport News grown carriers. This'll almost be a turkey shoot, a defenseless carrier taking on water/fires, with noone to control them at the beginning (maybe a few old sailors who stowed away on board  Wink) Also, I'll bet all the fuel tanks/magazines will be empty too, plus the flight deck will be empty....doesn't sound like it'll be too accurate!

DeltaGuy
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L-188
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:57 am

I wouldn't expect that.

I would expect the ship to be set up at general quarters, hatches sealed and then a shot put in. If it still floats, it would then be examined by the Navy experts. Then it would be followed by another one, and the process would be repeated with different arms and weapons until it goes under.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
LMP737
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:33 am

L188:

One would expect the Navy to have the ship at full watertight integrity with all hatched and dogged down. It will be interesting to see how much damage it can take. Although I bet that the final results will be classified.
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DeltaGuy
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:19 pm

Will also be interesting to see some unclassified photos, of her being towed out to sea, the stern of the ship going down, etc etc...it may be too deep to get any bottom pictures though.

Doubt there'll be any power onboard, so the bilge/other water pumps will probably not be running as well.

DeltaGuy
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ghostbase
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:49 am

Am going to be careful how I say this, so here goes...

I have seen *speculation* on a UK based message board that the US Navy has made a deal with the Russians to use their SSM missiles (possibly the SS-N-22 Sunburn) to see what happens if one ever hits a US nuclear carrier.

However, as the poster wryly noted, we will probably never know if they did or did not, especially if one caused mortal damage to the poor old girl.  sorry 

Not entirely without precedent, the USAF were secretly flying Soviet hardware in the 70's and 80's which is now well documented.

 ghost 
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aeroweanie
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:48 am

Its no secret that the US Navy has been buying and firing SS-N-22 Sunburns as targets. They are designated as Boeing/Zvezda-Strela MA-31s.

[url=http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/ma-31.html[/url]
 
L-188
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:35 am

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/ma-31.html

Clickable link for you there.

Actually I am going to have to remember that website when people start griping that the US never buys systems from overseas vendors.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
dl021
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:45 pm

Actually the missiles we have been using are the AS.17 Krypton, originally designed to be a Patriot radar killer and used as an air.surface weapon. The latest version of the missile was designed as an air.air AWAC's killer with 200km range and 1000meter per second velocity and a 90kg warhead. It is known as the "min-Moskit". It was modified to fit the flight profiles required by the USN for their uses.

The SS-N-22 Sunburn is a larger and weapon with a different flight profile and a 330kg warhead (potential nuclear). It travels at an average altitude of 20m. at around mach 2. Its pretty unstoppable by most interception methods and was designed as a Aegis killer.
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Woodreau
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:09 am

Getting back to the subject of the sinking for damage control / survivability testing....

A carrier will not be able to shootdown a SS-N-22 Sunburn or SS-N-X-27 or SS-N-X-25 missiles using its own weapons.

For now, an Aegis ship has the best Pk on those missiles, but still the Pk against those missiles is extremely very much less than satisfactory...


Re: WWII aircraft carriers sizes...
A Wasp LHD and an WWII Essex CV probably are very close in size with respect to dimensions. Even though top speeds and mission are different.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:10 am

My guess is that the Independence, Kitty Hawk and Constellation will be kept in a condition that can bring them back into commission within six months if the need arises, at least for the next ten years. After that, they're either going to be scrapped or turned into floating museums.

Also, I expect the Enterprise (CVN-65) to be decommissioned by 2010 from the sheer age of the ship itself. The Nimitz-class carriers will likely continue in service until at least 2020, when they are slowly phased out in favor of the next generation of aircraft carriers.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:42 am

I thought the Indy and Connie were stricken? Or did I mess one of those up?

DeltaGuy
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dl021
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:00 am

Quoting Woodreau (Reply 37):
A carrier will not be able to shootdown a SS-N-22 Sunburn or SS-N-X-27 or SS-N-X-25 missiles using its own weapons.

Would the CIWS not be able to shoot it down? I know the sumbitch is moving fast, but the stream of 20mm rounds ought to take it down as long as it connects. I'm not sure about the RAM CIWS. Anyone know without me having to look?

Quoting Woodreau (Reply 37):
For now, an Aegis ship has the best Pk on those missiles, but still the Pk against those missiles is extremely very much less than satisfactory...

My assumption is that there would be multiple weapons targeted on each missile to ensure destruction.

Delta...They were keeping Ranger and Indy as reserve carriers in mothballs, but they are all listed as stricken in the NVR. They could be reactivated, if the situation were important enough, but the problem now is that there would not be enough airplanes to put on them. We would have to bring a bunch of F/A-18's, A-7's and A-6's out of AMARC and dust off the pilots to get them on the boat. It would be a long process to do this and be somewhat dubious in terms of results. THe only really logical reason to bring one out is if, God forbid, something happened to one of our carriers.

Ray....They might actually decommission the Big E sooner, as it is more complicated to maintain due to the 8 reactors. They are looking at the possibility of an 11 or even 10 carrier force.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:28 am

Would be nice to see some A-7's and A-6's gracing the cats once again...but that would also mean that my dad's generation would have to be flying those A-7's again lol. Would give anything to fly the Corsair  Sad

Anyways...you did pretty much sum it up about the whole 'what if' carrier situation....hope we never come to those circumstances. I have a feeling we'll have all our boats operating for WWIII though  Wink

DeltaGuy
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Woodreau
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:15 am

FWIW,

CIWS cannot shoot down Sunburns nor the SS-NX-25 or SS-NX-27 missiles due to the terminal maneuvering characteristics of those missiles. The Ruskies figured out the operating logic of CIWS and developed a counter which causes the CIWS to ignore those incoming missiles. So because of this an aircraft carrier cannot shoot down Sunburns or any of its derivatives.

For now the best way to counter those missiles is to prevent the launch platform from coming in range to launch the missiles. e.g. shoot the Archer. So hopefully you better know where all the Sunburn shooters are...

An AEGIS or any air defense warship's best friend is time. Anti-ship missiles take away that friend by flying low and fast- at sea-skim altitudes less than 50ft. With a small radar cross section and at that altitude, unless you detect the launch platform in the actual act of launching and catch that incoming missile in the boost phase, you won't pick up the incoming missile until it crosses your radar horizon. At 50ft that radar horizon is about 12-15 miles. So your effective radar range against that missile is 12-15 miles, even though you can see that commercial airliner at 200 miles at 30kft. The anti-ship missile terminal attack radar will come on around 10-15 miles out so your EW will give you a positive ID. But now the missile is 10 miles out... An Exocet covers 9 miles a minute, A Sunburn covers 27 miles a minute. So once you pick it up, you have a 1 minute reaction time against an Exocet, a 20 second reaction time against a Sunburn.

So my radar pick up the missile... It shows up on my display, AEGIS has already computed a fire control solution on the track. It takes 5-10 seconds for me to recognize it for what it is and order a missile engagement against that track and pop chaff. 1-2 seconds for the missile operator to hook and engage the track. Then the AEGIS weapons computer schedules the missiles (depending on my launch doctrine) for launch. 1-2 seconds to open the VLS tubes and it will take about 5 seconds for the actual missile salvo launch - 1 second between missile launches. shoot-shoot-look (radar looks at the incoming missile again) -shoot (throw another missile in the air for good measure). Three missiles away at the incoming missile.

So against a Exocet I am now down to about 30-40 seconds left. and I can probably order one reengagement (with another 3 missiles) if the original 3 missile salvo didn't kill the inbound missile... Against a Sunburn, the Sunburn is already at CIWS engagement range before the first missile leaves my VLS tube... And CIWS can't shoot down Sunburns, again because of the missile's maneuvering characteristics in the terminal phase of flight.

Anyways, air defense is always a fast game with instant gratification, no need to wait to see who won, results available in less than 5 minutes... it's much better than anti-sub warfare (USW these days - unusually slow warfare.) the only bad thing about USW is that USW can turn into an air defense battle real quick if that sub launches Sunburns or Exocets...
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
dl021
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:03 am

Woodreau....Thanks for that. I had gone to look it up in the interim and your explanation was more concise than that which I read.

I am astonished that we have not come up with some countermeasure to the Sunburn missile. Expecially since we have eliminated our long distance "Archer" killer. Our plan has always been to engage attackers at long distance to reduce the possibility of people who are able to hit us by saturation attack. I did not read that the Sunburn is sublaunched, although it is designed to be ship launched, so assumably it can be modified for sub launch as was the Tomahawk and Exocet.

Do you know whether the RAMS CIWS is any better at hitting this missile?

Who else, besides the Russians, own and operate that missile? FAS and GlobSec don't give any other users.

I think that the missile threat justifies a better sea control aircraft to keep the fleet secure in the face of potentially hostile vessels.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Woodreau
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:46 pm

Unfortunately, I can't answer any of your specific questions or go any further than my explanation above without verifying who you are...  

But it is more than just the hard numbers, the range of this missile is xxx, etc...

The hard part when we are out there is keeping situational awareness, the RMP and RAP as it's called (Recognized Maritime Picture and Recognized Air Picture) That is what we spend 99.9999% of our time doing. (The other .0001% we're goofing off.) If we keep RMP and RAP up, we (should) know who is out there and where they are, or if not exactly sure about where they are, about where we guess (with reasonable accuracy) they are. We already know their capabilities, we just keep them outside of their capabilities... If we can't keep them outside of their capabilities, we look at other ways to sail in harm's way by increasing our readiness and alert posture (so we don't get surprised by that incoming missile at 10 miles) and managing the risk we take by sailing into his missile range. (Well we are doing this anyway whether or not we are inside his missile range.)

And also just because I can kill someone at say (making up a number here) 60 miles with one of my missiles. If I don't know they are there, I can't kill them... Same goes for the other side... The other side has weapons with lots of capability and range, but if they can't see that far, they can only utilize the weapon as far as they can see... Like a hunting rifle, (I know nothing about hunting) A hunting rifle can shoot and hit targets at 1000 meters. But if you can't see past 300 meters because of the trees and foilage, that deer standing 350 meters away from you is safe because you can't see it and use that rifle to its full capability.

So that's what we try to do... The flip side is when the hunter finally sees the deer, it's an awfully long 650 meters to run. That's when you hope that the DCA and his damage control teams are really up to snuff and really know how to patch that big hole in the side of the ship...

[Edited 2005-03-18 14:53:32]
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
dl021
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:06 am

Good answer.

You know your shit. Situational awareness is important throughout the different arenas of warfare. As an infantryman I can say that the enemy usually has weapons that once fired in our direction there was no stopping it, so the trick is to remain unseen by your enemy so you can shoot at him first and prevent him from shooting a well aimed shot at you.

I assume that missile defence is the fastest moving segment of fleet defence, and probably just as difficult as ASW.

All of my knowledge of naval warfare comes from reading and listening, so 1st hand opinion from a pro is really interesting.

What was you MOS/rating? How long were you in?

DL021
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Woodreau
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:02 pm

DL021,

I didn't mean to offend you with the "first verifying who you are" remark and I apologize if you took offense to it.

I got your PM but I haven't been smart enough to figure out how to send one back to you.

We're always practicing air defense drills, anti-surface drills, anti-submarine drills, as well as damage control drills. When we want to practice damage control drills, the CIC guys always lose their battle and the missile, suicide attack boat, or bomb-laden Cessna always makes it in and makes a big hole in the side. Otherwise it's very boring out there in the middle of the ocean.

But with the RAM/CIWS combination against the Sunburn, I really don't know, but with what I do know about how RAM works, I personally don't think a RAM/CIWS combo would have any more success than a CIWS only defense.

I'm pretty unsavy about the Internet, so I don't know what other open source info is available about naval warfare systems on the Internet. So I don't know what you are looking at or reading. I get all of my stuff from the official sources and from mashing buttons on the console calling the shots.

As far as my MOS/rating: I am an 1110, a surface warfare officer, for almost 11 years now. Anyways, it's been so fun that I gave it all up to take a $16,000/year job as an F/O for a regional airline  Smile ...

So much for talking about sinking the USS America...
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
dl021
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Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:25 am

No offense taken. SOme stuff is not to be discussed no matter how curious people get. SAEDA is real and the need for OPSEC is real. If it was the old "I could tell you but then I'd have to cut your head off and put it in the company safe..." then its pretty funny and I share the laugh (because that one never gets old).

Open source intel can be found at Janes website http://www.janes.com/defence/ and at the Periscope site http://www.periscope.ucg.com/index1.shtml. Nothing is as good as actual hands on experience, but remember that the CIA derives much of its intel from constant perusal of open source information from around the world.

As far as talking about the sinking, hey, if those types of missiles spread around the sinking of the USS America is going to mean more than ever in terms of what it can tell us about how a vessel that size reacts to such attacks and how to save it if/when it gets hit.

As far as RAM/CIWS goes, from my latest research it does not look like it will do better than a working CIWS...it simply seems to be more reliable than what some call the "Christ, I Won't Shoot!" that seems to be somewhat temperamental.

Sorry to be losing your services to the country, but thanks for your time and sacrifices. Good luck with the new job.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
DeltaGuy
Posts: 3965
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RE: US Navy To Sink The USS America

Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:24 am

Thanks for the services as well, but good move...I think you'll enjoy the world up above (the one that pays lol) alot more Big grin Better than getting carpal tunnel syndrome from that radar screen  Smile

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan

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