keesje
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Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs

Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:42 am

Not to many IMO, some incidents..

So why spend so many billions billions in developping aircraft for this (e.g. Eurofighter, F22)?

Times are changing, requirement too IMO..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs

Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:27 am

Times are changing, requirement too IMO..

Funny you say that, Keesje. Aircraft designers were saying the same things in the late '50s and early '60s, so aircraft like the F-4 weren't designed to be dogfighters as designers and war planners expected all-missile engagements at BVR. The experiences learned in Vietnam taught us much differently. IMO, I'd rather see aircraft designed that could balance both BVR and knifefights, such as the F/A-22 and the Eurofighter.
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Ozair
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RE: Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs

Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:35 am

I'd have thought that aircraft designed now need more than ever a knifefight capability. How many incidents occur during UN operations, Bosnia etc where visual identification of approaching aircraft is required first. If the aircraft were to be hostile then a close in weapons engagement would be required. Even with advances in Radar visual identification is still required.

I am surprised more aircraft don't have the TV cameras used on F14 and some MIG aircraft that allow you to identify targets at far greater than eyeball range.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs

Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:24 am

Maybe the pilots good ol Mk 1 Mod 0 has gotten stronger  Wink

DeltaGuy
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Ozair
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RE: Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs

Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:11 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy (reply 3):
Maybe the pilots good ol Mk 1 Mod 0 has gotten stronger


Just keep eating those carrots!
 
dl021
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RE: Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs

Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:22 pm

To answer the original question I'll have to add to what GP said.

The idea that long distance weapons are perfect is far from reality. The aircraft will need to be able to engage each other at short range once all missile ordnance has been expended. There will also continue to be a requirement for ground support, including strafing, for fighters....whether the Air Farces like it or not.

Close in combat using guns has not been very common over the last 25 or so years, but it's like insurance.....you don't need it until you really really need it.
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Kukkudrill
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RE: Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs

Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:02 pm

I remember reading about an engagement between a British Harrier and an Argentine transport (Hercules I think it was) during the Falklands war. One of the Harrier's AIM-9s started a fire between the two engines on one wing. Its other AIM-9 failed. In the end the Harrier pilot shot down the Herc WWII style with his 30mms. A cannon-less fighter, like the Brits were proposing with their Eurofighters (is this still the plan?), would be a big mistake IMO.
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LMP737
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RE: Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs

Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:08 am

In the current issue of Air Forces Monthly they have an interesting snippet in their losses section. On Sept 14 2001 two Syrian MIG-29's turned towards an Israeli 707 SIGNIT aircraft flying over the Med. The two F-15's flying escort engaged the MIG's and shot them down. One with a Python and the other with a Sidewinder. Guess the days of the dogfight are not over.
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keesje
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RE: Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs

Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:37 am

IMO soon off-borescope angle AAM can turn 180 degrees. Experiments have been done with rearward-facing air-to-air radar, allowing the use of rear-firing semi-active radar guided missiles.

Rearward directed air to air radars such as on this SU33 and special missile versions could reduce the need for high agility.


The Helm mounted cueing devices combined with new new missiles like the russian introduced with AA11/mig29/su27 in the eighties are addopted on all new fighters.

Long range, pilot comfort, ability to carry site looking radar, act as buddy refueler, ECM aircraft, etc could become more important. Look at the F18 Growler concept, the "trance 2" of the Eurofight the RAF came up with 2 years ago, and the late decision to order a larger percentage of 2 seater Rafales.. IMO requirements are changing..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
dl021
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RE: Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs

Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:40 am

Kukkudrill

Sorry but I think that the story you read was incorrect. The British did not record shooting down a C-130 in any record I can find.

Here is a site that lists all air-air kills during the conflict.

http://www.naval-history.net/F63braircraftlost.htm

The fights between the A-4's and the Harriers are interesting, however. Real knife fights by determined and skilled fliers.
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Ant72LBA
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RE: Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs

Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:20 am

Tuesday 1st June

[a65] - Hercules C.130E of FAA Transport Grupo 1 shot down 50 miles North of Pebble Island by Cmdr Ward RN in No.801 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder and 30mm cannon (10.45 am). Crew of seven killed.

DL021,

This was taken from the link you included so Kukkudrill's account would appear to be correct.
 
LMP737
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RE: Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs

Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:44 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Not to many IMO, some incidents..

So why spend so many billions billions in developping aircraft for this (e.g. Eurofighter, F22)?

Times are changing, requirement too IMO..


One must remember that the F-22 was designed to detect hostile aircraft at long ranges while being undetected itself and then engaging those target at a standoff distance. So saying it was developed for dogfighting is not entirely accurate.

However the USAF has a long memory and they recall a time when the "experts" said the day of the dogfight was over. Then Vietnam came about and they were caught with their pants down. Therefore IMHO the Air Force is right to design the F-22 with agility in mind in case there is a dogfight. Some targets might get through or the ROE might require visual ID.
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L-188
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RE: Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs

Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:40 am

Well lets think here.

USN F-14's tangled with Lybian Su's and Migs in the 1980's.
Just about all the major USAF types played with the Iraqi's in the 1990 war. Although I note that most of the kills where with Sparrow.
Add to the fact that the Iranians where flying missions against Iraq during the 1980's too. Hard to believe there wouldn't have been some A to A.
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LY744
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RE: Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs

Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:35 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 7):
In the current issue of Air Forces Monthly they have an interesting snippet in their losses section. On Sept 14 2001 two Syrian MIG-29's turned towards an Israeli 707 SIGNIT aircraft flying over the Med. The two F-15's flying escort engaged the MIG's and shot them down. One with a Python and the other with a Sidewinder.


That incident is far from being confirmed. Both sides deny it ever took place, and the only journalist who has reported the story can not, or will not, reveal his sources. Further more, I've seen off the record accounts of former IDF/AF personnel who were on duty in the Nothern sector command and control center that day, and saw no evidence of any unusual activity.


LY744.
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dl021
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RE: Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs

Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:17 am

AnT72....you are correct sir. I did not go to the next page, indeed did not see the next page. THanks.

Kukkudrill...sorry about that. I can't believe I never heard that before.
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LMP737
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RE: Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs

Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:11 am

LY744:

The Air Forces Monlthy blurb did mention that it was not confirmed. I did find it interesting that they mentioned the names of the Syrian pilots.
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Kukkudrill
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RE: Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs

Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:27 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 14):
Kukkudrill...sorry about that. I can't believe I never heard that before.

No problem!
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
 
keesje
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RE: Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs

Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:09 am

The latest US studies are also looking at long range versions of f22 and f23 fighters as is told on www.afa.org.

The F22 fighter is under discussion, the F/B22 is receiving USAF attention.



However the cockpits of these are not optimized for 10+ hour missions. The Su32 has a site by site cockpit improving communication and even has a small galley & toilet which enhances crew effectiveness in long patrol missions above crises areas.

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway

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