qxeguy
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:53 am

Women Blue Angels Pilot

Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:45 pm

Has there ever been a female Blue Angel Pilot? Is this even possible (in the Navy culture/ procedures sense...not the "a woman could never do that" sense)?
I fly boxes. Boxes don't bitch. Boxes don't barf. Boxes don't get drunk and do a number 2 on the beverage cart.
 
SATL382G
Posts: 2679
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:02 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:47 pm

I've never heard of one. Probably just a matter of time at this point.
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
Venus6971
Posts: 1415
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:55 pm

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:45 pm

Since the Blues don't wear G-suits it would probably be easier for a woman to perform the stunts especially one who has had a kid since their muscles in the pelvic region are stronger than men, just got done watching the military channels show about the Blues, it showed a Big Marine pilot who couldn't do the stunts because his body wasn't capable of doing the G's reguraly without the suit which showed up after winter trng which his body was saying stop and overriding his will.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
SATL382G
Posts: 2679
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:02 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:01 am

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 2):
Big Marine pilot who couldn't do the stunts because his body wasn't capable of doing the G's reguraly without the suit which showed up after winter trng which his body was saying stop and overriding his will.

Felt sorry for the guy. His problem was very visible in the airshow community. Would suck to get all the way thru training and then have this happen.
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
AT502B
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:17 pm

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:29 am

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 3):
Felt sorry for the guy. His problem was very visible in the airshow community. Would suck to get all the way thru training and then have this happen.

Yeah, I felt sorry for him to. I saw one woman admitted to the Blue Angels squad on the show- but I believe she was going to be the flight surgeon. On the other hand there is probably not a whole lot of women fighter pilots to choose from in the fleet. I've heard of a few but not very many, anybody know how many female fighter pilots are out there in the Navy or Marines?
I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning.
 
LMP737
Posts: 4809
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:32 am

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 2):
a Big Marine pilot who couldn't do the stunts because his body wasn't capable of doing the G's reguraly without the suit which showed up after winter trng which his body was saying stop and overriding his will.

That marine pilot had also been fighting off some sort bug for over a month. Which meant his body had been weakened therefore his tolerance for G's was reduced.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7797
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:08 am

No, there has never been a female 'Blue Angel' show pilot. The biggest reason being it was not until recent years that women have been allow to fly active combat aircraft, and because of that are just now reaching the flight requirements to even apply for the team.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Cadet985
Posts: 1957
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:58 am

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 1):
Probably just a matter of time at this point.

I completely agree. Women have broken down the barrier in almost every other military career field (I believe infantry, armor, and submarines are the only fields still closed to women), so I'd wager a guess and say that within 10 years, there will be a female pilot in the formation. There will be a lot of people opposed to it - as there were when women were allowed into the service academies, allowed to fly combat aircraft, etc., but it will happen, although I'm not sure who will have a female pilot first - the Blue Angels or the Thunderbirds. Probably when one team has one, the other team will have one.

Marc
 
DeltaGuy
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 5:25 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:42 am

The thing I'm more afraid of is when a woman gets command of a squadron, then eventually a CVN...that is only a matter of time as well.

Not that I'm sexist per-se (I did see some very capable females flying those T-45's), it's just....I guess it's not what we're used to seeing? It was always a gentleman's club, now times have changed.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
futureualpilot
Posts: 2402
Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 10:52 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:01 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 8):
The thing I'm more afraid of is when a woman gets command of a squadron, then eventually a CVN...that is only a matter of time as well.

Whats wrong with that? If she is qualified for the position and her superiors see her fit to command the squadron, or a CVN, then I see no problem with it.

As you said, it is not what we are used to seeing, but then again neither is a female Sec. of State, etc.
Life is better when you surf.
 
Cadet985
Posts: 1957
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:20 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 8):
The thing I'm more afraid of is when a woman gets command of a squadron, then eventually a CVN...that is only a matter of time as well.

I'm sure if you looked hard enough, there is a squadron somewhere commanded by a woman, and I see nothing wrong with that. Whether a person is a good leader doesn't depend on what they have between their legs.

Marc
 
Duce50Boom
Posts: 723
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 8:03 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:59 pm

The SQ/CC of one of the A-10 units at DM is a woman, a very butch one I might add. She sued the DoD for wearing the abaya off base in saudi and caused a stink by wearing a male flight cap at her change of command. I gotta say, that woman's got balls!

My WG/CC here at SUU is a woman. Ops normal
 
aeroweanie
Posts: 1577
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:33 pm

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:57 am

Latest Av Week says that two women applied to the Thunderbirds in 2004, but didn't make the cut.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:10 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 8):
Not that I'm sexist per-se (I did see some very capable females flying those T-45's), it's just....I guess it's not what we're used to seeing? It was always a gentleman's club, now times have changed.

Yes it's another example of things changing.. But a poignant remark I saw on a documentary about women in av (made by a woman) was that "The plane doesn't care who's flying it"

I think that just about says it all...
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AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:51 am

I'm sick of this PC BS rampant in the US society. While I have no problem with women pilots flying anything, I am morally opposed to women in combat and therefore do not approve of women in fighter or attack aircraft. If your ship is carrying anything other than flares and chaff, I don't believe we as a Nation should send women in a potential for harms way, but these feelings of mine stem from personal moral and religious objections - the same ones that kept women out of combat roles until the Klinton/Aspin fiasco.

The case with Israel is always brought up in defense of women in combat roles, but that's not the case in the US where there are plenty of men available for combat duties. It always irritated me when I was in the Marines that the women PFT's were to a lesser standard and it is those same exact reasons why women have not been any more integrated into combat roles than they have. I don't like the hypocrisy that goes with picking and choosing which combat roles are and are not acceptable for women (infantry versus fighter jets for example,) and so I say omit them all from combat duties.

Personally, I think it's a sign of weakness when a Nation has to rely upon women to wage their battles, and I simply just do not agree with the current policy. If that's sexist, than that's someone else's problem.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:17 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 14):
moral and religious objections

I'm sure the Iraqis who were killed by female fighter pilots dropping ordinance on them had objections to being killed by a woman...

I'm sorry, but religion (or lack there of) is no excuse.. We aren't 'dependent' on women to fill these roles, they volunteered, just like the WACs in WWII. Are they taking a much bigger risk? Absolutely!! Are they Ill informed, NO. Show me a female combat pilot who thinks it's impossible to get raped, and I'll shut up.

When you start talking about a draft where women are 'forced' to join the military in a frontline role, ok, I'll listen to "moral and religious objections". But so long as women are doing the role of their own free will, don't take shots at them and hide behind antiquarian values.
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sprout5199
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:26 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:00 am

I think that it would be a coup for the Blues to get a female. Talk about a recruiting dream. But on the other hand its like female firefighters, they need to be able to do the job. I dont care what sex of the firefighter is as long as they carry me OUT of the burning buliding


Dan in Jupiter
 
SWAbubba
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 2:15 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:15 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 8):
The thing I'm more afraid of is when a woman gets command of a squadron, then eventually a CVN...that is only a matter of time as well.

One of my old skippers was the gator on the Enterprise, now she's doing her deep draft command.

The times have indeed changed...
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:05 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 15):
I'm sorry, but religion (or lack there of) is no excuse..

Well tell that to the now deceased Pope John Paul II, he objected to women priests as well as women in combat, but it's not because he was sexist. I've long since given up on trying to change people's minds on this issue, but I'm sick of caving into the PC BS of today's society. I don't agree with women in combat; I don't want my mother, sister, or daughter slingin' mud, even though in certain limited roles, they can press a button as well as any trained ape can.

And if you want to talk about WWII, I don't think the military should be a place to test a social hypothesis such as is the case with the gender integration of the female into the combat arm. When you look at the amount of civilian casualties in WWII committed by all sides, including the USofA, it is pathetic that even with the massive technological advancements in our weapons of war, our society likely wouldn't permit the successful conclusion by our forefathers in WWII if it had to be fought today because the PC police and their lawyers have already degraded our ability to wage war so far that as is often the case in our courts, the guilty have more rights than the victims and there are too many that would just as soon turn over the keys to the Nation before "offending" our enemies, but that's a topic of a thesis for an entire different forum and time.
 
ftrguy
Posts: 347
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:17 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:13 am

Funny this topic came up, cause I heard in my ready room that the blues are actually looking for a woman for next years team. I doubt they actually want one, but higher ups are probably pushing for it.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:12 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
Well tell that to the now deceased Pope John Paul II

He died because JUST like you and me our time will come and go. I respect the fact that PJPII stuck up for what he believed in, but NEVER once whined about, or cared about "PC".

There is a BIG diference between "PC" and practicality.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
they can press a button as well as any trained ape can.

I suppose you don't think we (men and women) aren't just slightly smarter apes?

I would rather be an Ape, at least I wouldn't have to worry about houses, money or people that pretend to know more then they actually do.
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AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:24 am

As long as men are attracted to women the potentiality of distraction is simply not worth it on the battlefield - in my opinion. Believe what you want, I'm not trying to change your opinion and I'm not berating you for not sharing my opinon as well.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:55 am

AirRyan,

I don't mean this to be personal. I love good heated theological discussions.

If I have said something that you interpreted as being directed at you personally, I am sorry. I certainly try to avoid the childish games that go on in other forms where people say 'such and such is an idiot for saying...' That's not my style

I'll take shots at what your saying, but maybe one of these days we will have a beer and say 'I don't like your ideas, but your an ok person'

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 21):
As long as men are attracted to women the potentiality of distraction is simply not worth it on the battlefield

Aaaaaaa further evidence that men are a weak animal.

The only reason this is a problem is if they are being unprofessional. Professionals respect eachother, and the need to focus on the task at hand.
Professionals would wait until they are in a situation when lives aren't on the line to allow feelings to occur, not let it interfere with their duty.
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AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:35 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 22):
don't mean this to be personal. I love good heated theological discussions.

If I have said something that you interpreted as being directed at you personally, I am sorry. I certainly try to avoid the childish games that go on in other forms where people say 'such and such is an idiot for saying...' That's not my style

That's good to go by me, the first thing I learned whilst in the Marines was not to let words offend me, but this is just the first time I have ever paid to use a message forum and I want to lose my $$$ in my first week of posting!

I know the Air Force prides themselves on professionalism and was part of the reason why they were so quick to comply once Aspin handed down the new order, but even the USAF has had their dose of fraternization and the black eyes at the AFA only stem from that same fundamental lack of integrity rampant in our society by far too many.

My point is based not really off anything very academically tangible, but rather more so just the culmination of my own theories and hypotheses. Hypocrisy is a pet peeve of mine and in the military it has all the less value than it does in society, so I don't like the hypocrisy of picking and choosing which roles women can and cannot serve in combat in, so that's one of the reasons why I don't like the current policy because we pick and choose between fighter jets and not tanks, etc.

Personally I simply do not admire, find attractive, or what have you masculine attributes in females, and that is what we ask them to do when we accept women to participate in combat. No matter how you try and justify it, there are and will always be biological differences between the two and personally, I don't want to encourage anything that might further blend the two together.

It's the same thing in women's athletics. While I'm not against women athletics in any way, when the level of competition gets so fierce like that of what it becomes in college basketball and even softball, that's why I don't watch. WNBA?! I'd rather watch Snail Races on ESPN3. In that regard, Title IX is a joke in that it ignores the reality of fiscal dollars and subsidizes a program, and in theory an entire sports league out of fairness - since when did they teach anything about being fair in business school?

My theory is that so long as men are attracted to women, women will never be treated "equally" by those men because they will always go out of their way to treat them "better," at least in context and to a certain point; (I'm talking about everything from opening doors to the entire polite and courteous routines men put on for women that they are interested in.) I know that is where your code of professionalism is supposed to step in, but the facts are that there will always be those cases that overstep the boundaries, and right or wrong, love and all that stuff associated with sex is just not an ingredient that should be anywhere near combat - that's the same reason why the military doesn't want to accept homosexuality - they just don't want to deal with it or any possible ramifications stemming from it. That's my belief as well - why even pose for the potential when you simply do not have to? "Fair" is a four letter F-word and too often in order to be fair to one, you have to take away from another.

My bottom line is - I like women the way they are, and don't encourage anything that changes that. If we could financially warrant to let women train in fighter jets just to fly in the flight demonstration teams, than I would have no problems with women flying combat aircraft, but since a an F-18 and F-16 are made simply to wage war, I don't care of women fighter pilots. Like I say, it's just in my opinion and I have long since given up on trying to legislate my opinion upon others. If someone asks, I like you say enjoy good debate, but I don't claim to be any more right than the next guy, it's just all in my own opinion.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:30 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):

This is an EXCELLENT response, and I will reply Fully as soon as I can!!!

(Something about having to do work to pay the bills!!)
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TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:43 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
the black eyes at the AFA only stem from that same fundamental lack of integrity rampant in our society by far too many.

I think the Navy had something called Tailhook, but I think what we are both citing are non combat situations.

The only reason 'things' are "rampant" in our society are because there are a lot more of us, and there are better means of communicating our agendas regardless of how good/bad those might be. (False # alert) So who cares if there were only 1000 Gay people 200 years ago when there were a few million humans on the planet, you never heard about them. Now that there are a few billion of us, a couple million gay people with a voice it is threatening to those who refuse to believe that people can believe with as much veracity as straight people have, that being with someone of the same sex is 'right'. This situation is only going to get worse (population and expanding divergent groups) (unless we wake up and preach birth control) no matter how liberal you might/might not be.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
My point is based not really off anything very academically tangible

I think I have argued with a bit of emotion more then fact myself, but I thank you for hearing me out too.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
Hypocrisy is a pet peeve of mine

Me too, but I KNOW I'm as guilty of this as ANYONE!! ***

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
Personally I simply do not admire, find attractive, or what have you masculine attributes in females, and that is what we ask them to do when we accept women to participate in combat.

Here's another Argument: Let's think about the last few hundred years.. If you take them as a whole, women have not had a large role in doing much more then maintaining a household. Yes there were/are a LOT of EXCELLENT women pioneers that did a LOT of great work for women's causes, but they were certainly the minority initially. Now going back to my statement about who cares about a few 1000 gay people, well now there are a LOT more women who have a genuine interest in not fitting the role of maintaining a household. Relatively speaking I doubt the percentage has changed much, but once again, as the population has expanded so have the previously relatively un-heard minority.

Trust me when I tell you I doubt that I would find a female f-16 jockey that could out last the boy's in a turn physically attractive, but go back to my quote about the plane doesn't care who's flying it...I'd probably find her attractive because she could do something better then I could!! I understand where men start to get threatened here..

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
WNBA?! I'd rather watch Snail Races on ESPN3

I Like Championship nose picking myself!!

Title nine was a good idea gone a bit overboard. Did women's sports and academic/athletics need a break? ABSOLUTELY!! Does it need to be straight 50/50? I don't think so. If women's soccer was bringing in as much money as Men's football, HELL YES, but until there is enough consumer demand from the women to make the fan based income competitive, it ought to change a little.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
the facts are that there will always be those cases that overstep the boundaries

The only way I could see this as being a problem in a true combat situation, is if a female soldier choose to flash the enemy to distract them. Show me a female willing to flash a guy with a gun, and I'll show you a guy with a crappy digital camera ready to document the event!!!

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
they just don't want to deal with it or any possible ramifications stemming from it.

Ignoring it doesn't make it go away last time I checked.. I have yet to meet a gay man who didn't stop hitting on me when I told them I was straight.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
My bottom line is - I like women the way they are, and don't encourage anything that changes that

I understand what you are saying.. But I really don't think that a majority of women have no interest in being anything pretty much typical feminine. As long as there are women who are willing to be married and have kids, I don't think we should worry about the few who hate kids and wanna fly jets!!

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
I don't claim to be any more right than the next guy, it's just all in my own opinion.

Here Here.. But I think we ought to give women (and ourselves) a chance to see what they can do. If it's proven as a cold hard fact there is something they can't do, then there is no arguing facts.. But let's establish what is and isn't fact first  Smile

*** I know this isn't a great example but: I moved to Central Florida for among other reasons, to watch spaceflights, namely manned ones... I Love the idea of us venturing out, BUT.... I think the Human species will not survive longer then few thousand, maybe million years at best!!!
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AirRyan
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Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:03 pm

I understand what you are saying TedTAce and rationally and logically I offer much of a very credible rebuttal, but for some reason I still cringe at the thought of women in combat. If they were to reinstate a draft, perhaps the 2nd largest problem behind the military being the last ones to want conscripts in service against their will would be the debate over whether or not women should be eligible.

As it is now, most the guys who register for selective service don't even realize what they are doing other than enabling their student loans to process, but it could be a real moral dilemma now that women are admitted to the service academies and besides for the infantry, tanks, and the "unterseeboots," women are all around the military today - how could a potential draft not include women? While that may not seem like a very realistic alternative, should not women have to register for selective service just as the eligible men are now required?

I never had a problem with homosexuals when I was in the Marines, but I strongly agreed with the policy that so long as they did nothing to advance that particular position, it was fine and I had no problem with it. I think often times what is misconstrued in the media is the aspect of open-admission and acceptance of homosexuality in the military, and I don't think anyone wants that simply because it unnecessarily causes more cons than pros. HeLL, it is this ever-increasing sense of PC BS rampant among society today that strives for acceptance of the behavior/sexual preference and I charge back - when did I ever have to agree with everyone's opinions in order to work with, do business with, or even live next door with?! The same goes about the influx of the Spanish language in the US - everytime I see a Spanish translation for those not wanting to learn English while here in the US, I think there should be a Deutsch translation for all we descendants of Deutschland!

I know this has far digressed from anything very close to aviation, but I must confess my degree in sociology while perhaps not as marketable as my friend's engineering degree certainly nonetheless provided for some thought provoking intellectual discussion, and I certainly do not claim to be privy of "the right answers!" I guess my opinion on women in combat just stems from some tangible perhaps even academic "theories," but perhaps just as much if not more so it comes from my own stubborn sense of old-fashioned if not dare I say Puritanical values.

My bottom line is, I cringe at the thought of Jessica Lynch and others like her thrust upon combat situations. I couldn't sit through 5 minutes of GI Jane, and I'd move my daughter to Canada before I'd let her be drafted into the infantry and that is part of the reason why I think it is a sign of weakness for a military to allow women to serve in combat.
 
DeltaMD11
Posts: 1678
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RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:00 am

I'm of the school that if you meet all requirements whether they be physical or mental, then you should have an equal chance to get the position regardless of sex. A lot of women complain about not having equal opportunity etc. and I'm a firm believer that if they want fully equal opportunity they should be right up there on the front lines with everyone else, or better yet up there screaming by in a F-14 (well, soon to be F-18 Super Hornet WHICH IS NO TOMCAT might I add) if that's what they want to do. I've been practically raised by the USN and I can tell you first hand that I've met some women officers that have made their male predecessors/counterparts look pretty shabby. Then again there is the other side of the coin where you have some women officers that think they're hot shit and they act like they can do anything they want. My favorite by far are some of the female Navy Police here at NXX-they have authority and trust me, they act like it. Needless to say there are some male Navy Police that have the same syndrome.

Jessica Lynch's story is a tragic one and my heart goes out to her, but regardless if you are male or female and are a POW, especially a POW in Iraqi hands, you're not exactly going to be put up in the Hilton if you know what I mean.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:36 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 26):
I'd move my daughter to Canada before I'd let her be drafted into the infantry and that is part of the reason why I think it is a sign of weakness for a military to allow women to serve in combat.

I just want to make sure I understand...

Ultimately you don't agree with women in the military as volunteers because it means they 'have to serve' if theres a draft? I LIKE this argument. I agree there would be a major perception of hypocracy if the draft was re-instated and women weren't 'forced' to join.

Obviously I wouldn't force women to join, but it also seems harsh to deny those who choose to volunteer their choice..

I guess it's another one of those 'loose loose' situations that people love to bring up but don't have a solution for. I don't either, but I'll sleep on it  Smile
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TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:36 pm

Well I slept on it and the best I could do is the following:

Women can volunteer for anything at anytime (draft or not). If they want to volunteer for tank/infantry/Fighter duty on the front lines, they volunteer knowing they could be captured, raped, killed, etc.

Women can be drafted, by only to supporting roles that are CLEARLY capture safe (IE not driving supply trucks within 10+ miles of an enemy force.) While this doesn't ensure they can't be killed, it does ensure that their integrity as a woman is maintained.

It's still a bit hypocritical, but I think it's reasonable.
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AirRyan
Posts: 2398
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RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:12 am

It's just this whole seemingly futile attempt to make everything "fair" in our society that often times we begin to diverty on a tangent that takes us far away from our own intentions, even if those intentions are in good faith. It sounds like you are/were in the military, what about the different PFT scores for the different genders? Quite frankly I'm not even sure if I agree with lowering the standards for age, rather instead just lower the requirements on the other end of the spectrum for senior NCO and officers. When I've got to do 20 pull ups with my 200lbs frame but some WM can get by with just holding onto the bar for two minutes, I somehow don't see that as equal, and it's the same the 3 mile run - why should the standards be less if the role is suppossed to be equal?

I guess what just gets me is all the picking and choosing - it leads too often to hypocrisy and results in the opposite of our intentions. Here in the US the largest form of hypocrisy lies in the age of 18 being considered adulthood, but not letting them drink alcohol or carry a pistol until they are 21 because evidently they are not "adult" enough to either be responsible enough or society thinks they ought not be held accountable for their actions.

As far as women being drafted, the system is already skewed in that the Government only requires males to register for the draft and not females. As a former Marine it was hard for me to declare that I'd move my daughter to Canada before I'd allow her to serve knowing she was going to be eligible for the infantry, but that wasn't something I'd ever given any thought to before and would still have to agree with. Have you noticed the recent rampant influx of female characters in the movies and television that go all out in this fighting and other melee combat? Well, let's just say I'm not a fan of the female warrior ego!
 
SATL382G
Posts: 2679
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:02 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:31 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 29):
Women can be drafted, by only to supporting roles that are CLEARLY capture safe (IE not driving supply trucks within 10+ miles of an enemy force.) While this doesn't ensure they can't be killed, it does ensure that their integrity as a woman is maintained.

Show me a military personnel slot that is "capture safe" and I'll show you a slot that could be done better, cheaper, and more efficiently by a contractor.
Why bother teaching them to fire a weapon, hold them to a fitness standard, or even put them in BDUs if they are "capture safe"? Essentially -- there is not/or should not be any such military personnel slot that is "capture safe"

...and what the hell is "their integrity as a woman" ?

Sorry but IMO our (US) society is not yet ready to draft women....
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Women Blue Angels Pilot

Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:50 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 30):
When I've got to do 20 pull ups with my 200lbs frame but some WM can get by with just holding onto the bar for two minutes

What does this have to do with being strapped into a Jet pulling 9 G's? IE If the female can stay @9G's as long or longer then a guy; physical stuff like your citation has nothing to do with it. Should women in the military be able to do the same physical things as men? I think it depends on their role.. I can't imagine being in a combat infantry role and being 'dependent' on your "typical" woman. Give me a Sigourney Weaver type who can in real life drag a guy a hundred or so yeards to safety.. cool, but if she can't move my 300# fat A$$ an inch, she's a usless as the stringy fu¢k male private who eeked his way though basic.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 30):
it leads too often to hypocrisy and results in the opposite of our intentions.

Hypocrisy is nothing new. It's not something we should take pride in, but it's a fact of life. The only thing we can do is try to find the best possible compromise untill there is no need to do so (if ever.)

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 30):
Have you noticed the recent rampant influx of female characters in the movies and television that go all out in this fighting and other melee combat? Well, let's just say I'm not a fan of the female warrior ego!

Hummm, where do I start on this one? Yes I noticed... The first thing that bothers me is that the few women in leadership roles that should be portrayed in film look NOTHING like Demi Moore  Sad The next thing I find bothersome is revisionistic portrayals. Where I'd GUESS that a woman was genuinely terrified of the situation she might have been entering into, and acted so, and instead of charging headlong with a warrior cry, maintained her position, and fought bravely though her terror, and possibly trears. While victory is the ultimate goal I think I would have more respect for a woman who defeated the enemy while demonstrating her genuine emotion then a woman who faked bravery and got lucky.

I dont think GI Jane did much for Female SEAL recruitment, though I can Imagine a few girls saw it and did enlist... I think the reason for this is that they did an OK job of portraying that SEAL training is not for the faint of heart Male/Female issues aside. Did they do justice to a true story? I have absolutely NO clue. Do I want My Daughter to become a SEAL? ABSOUTLEY NOT!! If My Daughter goes that way though, I don't see why I should be another obstacle for her to have to deal with.

That being said movies are movies. The only things I trust are myself, my wife, a CVR/FDR, and unedited video evidence. If anyone sees GI Jane, Aliens, or any other movie and thinks being a warrior chick is cool/easy, they are a fool and deserve their fate.

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 31):
Show me a military personnel slot that is "capture safe" and I'll show you a slot that could be done better, cheaper, and more efficiently by a contractor.

Likely a good point, but then again I saw the report on those contractors who were killed in Falleujah, that Cited $600+/Day. While I can't prove one way ot the other if that's the case, they sound more expensive then a $600/month enlistee. I know what THOSE contractors were doing violates what I'm saying about staing safe as they were "aremd" 'security'. but the only point I meant to make is that contractors are not always cheaper.

I know I'm going to get in trouble with the international Audience here, but I would love to be able to hire some Indians to work for 1/3 what I would get paid to do over there in Iraq, just as there are Indians taking my job over here for 1/3 the price.

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 31):
Why bother teaching them to fire a weapon, hold them to a fitness standard, or even put them in BDUs if they are "capture safe"? Essentially -- there is not/or should not be any such military personnel slot that is "capture safe"

Who said they should be taught such things if they are drafted? If they aren't woman enough to volunteer to fight (and we actually need support personnell that can stay that far back) why should they be treated like they might be fighting?

Capture Safe to me means personell that stay back at a base far away from the front, and do whatever they can to help (Secretarial, Medical, Machine enabled supply truck loading, whatever)

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 31):
and what the hell is "their integrity as a woman" ?

I imagined this one would have been an easy one to pick up on given the conservative nature of our nation at this time...But obviously if there shouldn't be a way they are captured, there shouldn't be a way they could be raped/violated/tarnished out of their own will.

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 31):
Sorry but IMO our (US) society is not yet ready to draft women....

Don't get me wrong.. I'm not calling anyone, generating any petitions, or even close to the like... I KNOW this country is not ready to MAKE women work in the military. I was just offering an idea to justify the BLATANT hypocrisy of the current policy.
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