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HAWK21M
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F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:27 pm

After Hearing of the US offering F16s to Pakistan,which are older version,compared to those being offered to India with license production & the F18s.
Why would India be Interested in the F18s,when we have Mirage 2000s,Mig-29s & Su-30s to choose from.With no sanction stopping risk  Smile
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MEL
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aseem
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:48 pm

I think the offering is to pacify India, knowing very well that we won't buy it. What Govt of India is looking for is increased co-operation in space and development of weapon systems. It is for the first time that such a thing has been offered by US.
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HAWK21M
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:31 pm

Quoting Aseem (Reply 1):
knowing very well that we won't buy it

Maybe We should buy a few & continue purchase our Favourites [Mig 29/Su30/Mirage 2000].

Wouldn't it pay to have a model flown by your Top rival [Pak] known to you.
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MEL
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BarfBag
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:04 am

Exactly what niche does the F/A-18 fit into in our defence forces ? The Hornet is a carrier based fighter in the USN. We don't have a carrier that can hold it; Viraat isn't going to be able to handle it, and as far as I know, both Gorshkov and the ADS are not going to be CATOBAR, or at least, not able to fire F/A-18s.

If we want to experience F-16s, there's Israel. Indian armed forces have already collaborated with them in that aspect. We should just move on and invite Israel to joint exercises as well. And in any case, this F/A-18 business is all just mindless irresponsible tamasha by the US to justify its proliferation of advanced weaponry to an unstable dictatorial regime. That reminds me, are the US forces still training at the CIJWS in Mizoram, or have they been ordered out ?
 
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:32 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 3):

Exactly what niche does the F/A-18 fit into in our defence forces ? The Hornet is a carrier based fighter in the USN. We don't have a carrier that can hold it; Viraat isn't going to be able to handle it, and as far as I know, both Gorshkov and the ADS are not going to be CATOBAR, or at least, not able to fire F/A-18s.

Hate to interrupt a really good "Down with the US, they're all evil" rant you've got going, but I might point out here, BarfBag, that several Air Forces use the Hornet in a land-based role, including Australia, Kuwait, Finland, Switzerland, Spain, Canada, and Malaysia. Far be it from me to state why India would want to acquire it - after all, it's made in the USA, and goodness knows that it's posh to hate on everything American these days, but I would be quick to point out that the F/A-18 features Fly-by-Wire, a HOTAS cockpit (two things which the MiG-29 lacks), and a wider array of air-to-ground ordnance than the Fulcrum. To its credit, the MiG-29 does have more powerful engines and that nifty helmet-mounted sighting system, and the variant that India will acquire to use off the Gorshkov will feature a HOTAS cockpit .

I have no doubt that India will purchase the aircraft that it feels is in its best interest to acquire, but I would like to state that badmouthing the aircraft simply because it was made in the States and talking about an aircraft without looking at its basic specifications, including who operates it, is neither the intelligent nor objective thing to do. And most importantly, let's not forget Chuck Yeager's immortal words - "It's the man, not the machine" that determines who wins an air battle.

[Edited 2005-03-28 21:45:50]
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atmx2000
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:32 am

A land based version of the F-18 without the extra gear needed for carrier operations is available. This version offers better performance as a result of being lighter. I believe many foreign governments have ordered that version.
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atmx2000
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:40 am

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 4):
but I would like to state that badmouthing the aircraft simply because it was made in the States is neither the intelligent nor objective thing to do.

And they are even offering India co-production. I don't know if any offsets were offered in the previous international F-18 sales.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
BarfBag
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:33 am

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 4):
Hate to interrupt a really good "Down with the US, they're all evil" rant you've got going,

Oh brother. Another American going off his rocker because I didn't have the nicest possible words to say about an American plane. The F/A-18 has never been seriously considered for any Indian mission role, particularly carrier based ops, where there's latitude for considering a capable aircraft. Make an argument where it fits into our orbat, if you can. Other countries have their own priorities, and they're not necessarily applicable to our own.

Go back to the part of my response that you yourself quoted and show me the anti-American rant part. Geez, your response is amazing. I make what I see as a valid argument about the technical basis for the F/A-18 not being suitable for our use, and you go bawling "why do they hate us?" Nonav forum really scrapes off all the outer layers of peoples' skin eh ?  Wink :-|
 
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:02 am

'Bag - it's not that you didn't "have the nicest possible words to say about an American plane" that ticked me off but rather the fact that you were making commentary on the aircraft with only barebones knowledge, that being that the USN operates it. In addition, there are a handful of Indian posters around (one in particular) who has a rather visceral "foaming at the mouth" reaction to anything American. Simply put if one were to build an F/A-18 in Russia and put the Russian roundel on it, he'd be happy with it (I'm sure you know who I'm talking about) so apologies if I unfairly painted you into that corner as well.

Make a logical statement as to why it should fit into the Indian OrBat? That, indeed, is where it gets difficult due to the wide array of aircraft types the IAF currently fields, but I'd say to replace your MiG-29As, Bs, and UBs with it. Don't get me wrong - pursue the MiG-29Ks for Gorshkov, but do like more of the former Eastern-bloc nations are doing and junk your old Fulcrums. To start out with, the F/A-18 is one of the most easily maintained and most reliable fighter aircraft around so naturally, maintenance costs would be lower than, say, your MiG-29As or -Bs. Even early model F/A-18As were infamous for flying 3 times more hours than any other USN tactical jet while requiring half the maintenance. Also, if memory serves, the Klimov turbofans on the -29s require more intensive maintenance than the GEs on the Hornet. Further, as I stated, the F/A-18 carries a much wider array of air-to-ground ground armament than the MiG-29, which increases its value against any potential opponents of the IAF. Fly-by-wire controls give it a tactical edge as does the HOTAS design and the ability to switch from being a fighter to an attack jet at the push of a button. Lastly, the F/A-18, even with its infamous fuel factor woes, has better range than a MiG-29.

That's just my 2 cents in the few spare minutes I have to post this when my boss isn't looking.
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BarfBag
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:36 am

Look, I'm not about to take the hit for anyone else's attitude. Just because Roy or shadowy 'Indian posters' yank your chain is not a valid reason to tar and feather me as well. I'll certainly defend what I believe are my country's best interests, regardless of whether they are viewed as in favor of or against that of yours. Calling that 'anti-American' is plain rubbish.

My statement about the F/A-18 is based on multiple arguments:
a) It has never been seriously considered for any Indian combat aircraft requirement, not because it's a lemon, because of it has either not been suitable for a specific requirement, or as an American platform (and based on the very poor defence relationship between the countries) it was struck out. I also see it as nothing more than an act of mollification, and the statement about co-production of F/A-18s is something I can only respond to with "I'll believe it when I see it".
b) Our carrier-based aircraft have been more or less decided upon. MiG-29Ks on the Gorshkov in the immediate basis, and N-LCAs on both Gorshkov and the multiple ADSs in future. If the F/A-18 is a legit contender, I have to ask why the US never pushed it until now, when it had to have a face saver for its planned Pakistan F-16 deal. I have grave concerns about the sincerety of this proposal, considering our carrier-based platform has been up in the air for a while, and the Hornet was never put forth. Plus, I don't believe the Hornet will be optimal for the Gorshkov or the ADS, but that is a question of the ship's capability.

On a purely technical basis, sure the Hornet kicks ass. I know plenty about it (but not as much about its users), though I would ideally see us use it only as a carrier-based fighter (hence my ignorance of its land-based users). We have a preponderance of aircraft for land-based roles, in particular the Su-30MKI which is IMHO by far a better option for its role.
 
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:48 am

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 4):
nifty helmet-mounted sighting system

GP....new Rhinos have the HMCS as standard equipment. The upgrade is available for the previous models.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 7):
Go back to the part of my response that you yourself quoted and show me the anti-American rant part.

BBAG....you do tend to offer a uniquely Indian view of things that leads people to believe that everyone who is not Indian can kiss your ass and if they don't want to do it the Indian way they can kiss your ass. Its the kind of thing Americans get hammered for all the time. I refer you to your previously stated opinions on Kashmir and other topics. I also refer you to the following quote...

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 3):
That reminds me, are the US forces still training at the CIJWS in Mizoram, or have they been ordered out ?

There are other ways you could have put that statement to make it less confrontational. You choose not to, so don't be surprised to see that you touch on nerves.

Where would the F-16 or F/A-18 fit into the Indian order of battle, GP is correct that the IAF would do well to replace the MiG-29 fleet with a more capable aircraft. Fewer aircraft would be needed to get the same serviceable a/c working and then fewer aircraft per mission would be needed to get the jobs done. Also the MiG-21 fleet is way past needing to go away and either of the two US fighters would be better replacements than the LCA. But that said, I don't think that the Indians want the airplanes as much as they want the jobs building them will create for a few years.


BTW...what the hell is

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 3):
tamasha

?
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BarfBag
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:14 am

BBAG....you do tend to offer a uniquely Indian view of things that leads people to believe that everyone who is not Indian can kiss your ass and if they don't want to do it the Indian way they can kiss your ass. Its the kind of thing Americans get hammered for all the time.

Shucks, you and GP tend to project that yourself. Never mind if its couched in much more 'reasonable sounding' prose. I object to the first statement about anyone who's not Indian having to kiss my behind, but certainly, if they have a problem with how India does it  Wink Oh, I'm just being facetious.

The act of pulling the plug on US co-in training personnel at Vairengte is just simple retaliation. We had our personnel in the US shown the door right after the 1998 nuclear tests, and you buggers refused to return our LCA avionics testbeds (which we were working on with Lockheed Martin) as well. So what's the big deal. In any case, the mandarins in New Delhi are pissed. Condi Rice was here last week and claimed no F-16 deal was in the works, and the news comes up days after she leaves. Surely you don't expect us to not do anything ?

The MiG-21's chosen successor is the LCA. The MiG-29 isn't due for replacement in a hurry. The PAK-FA or MCA is slated for the heavy fighter role in future. The Hornet is really not going to be inducted just because it happens to be a great aircraft. I personally prefer that we built our planes indigenously. From a purely technological capability viewpoint, there's nothing better. It might cost more and take time and lives, but its worth it. With apologies to David Ricardo, there are times when India should master critical high technology itself, not just buy it from the west.

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AirRyan
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:54 am

While I personally think anyone, including the USAF, USN, or USMC would be better off buying modern Su-30MK's over F/A-18F's for their respective prices, a decent fleet of Block II F/A-18F's could be a very wise investment.

Per the permission of the US State Deparment of course on just how much tech would be allowed to be transferred, which may or may not be a wise move, could yield some very good technology to India such as AESA radar, AIM-9X and JHMCS, AMRAAM and soon-to-be future models incorporating much longer ranges, as well as the current crop of goodies such as JDAM, LGB, perhaps even SHARP and/or EA-18G's possibilities.

I always like to be well rounded and if offered in it's entirety, Block II F/A-18F's or even F-15E/K's specifically specialized for India might be very potent. I'd much rather support India in opposistion to China versus Pakistan who is allied with China, especially if China continues to thump their chest over the issue of Taiwan.
 
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:49 am

Oh, and keep in mind that just because the White House mentioned F/A-18's, I don't see where F-15E/K's would be any less acceptable an offer for India, other than their price that is!
 
atmx2000
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:07 pm

The F-15 is not light aircraft like the F-16 and F-18 are.
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AirRyan
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:11 pm

Light aircraft? Well the only Hornet Boeing now makes is the Super Hornet, and it's not exactly in the same class as the F-16 and Legacy Hornet are. Is this why India isn't just considering more Sukhoi's? Block II Super Hornets or specialized Strike Eagles might give the Indian Air Force the next best thing to the level of tech of a JSF if outfitted appropriately.
 
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:56 pm

You know, I wonder why the Europeans have not yet offered the Eurofighter Typhoon to the Indians. That is unless the Indian AF already has a superior dogfighter in the Su-30's they got already.
 
atmx2000
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:40 pm

Well how much lighter will a non-carrier Super Hornet be?
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DeltaGuy
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:03 pm

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 4):
To its credit, the MiG-29 does have more powerful engines and that nifty helmet-mounted sighting system

I see em install this thing on Legacy Hornets all the time over at Boeing..tis a nice system.

The new 'Rhino engines should give a closer margin of performance to the MiG's. Not like they have a huge choice anyways, either new build Supers, or some of our older A models that we're slowly getting rid of.

DeltaGuy
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bikerthai
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:14 pm

I'm pulling this old thread out because I didn't want to start a new thread.

Here is a nice video of what Boeing is offering . . .

http://geneva-globaldefence.blogspot...o-india-2011-reveals-advanced.html

bikerthai
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spudh
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:15 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 14):
The F-15 is not light aircraft like the F-16 and F-18 are

Empty weight of F18 E/F = 32,000 lbs

Empty weight of F15 E = 31,700 lbs

Stripping out the carrier specific items like the launch bar and some of the startup equipment from the SH might liberate another 1,000lbs max but I doubt it. You'll still have a structure and landing gear designed for carrier landings and operations. Years ago Northrop offered the F18L as a stripped out version of the F18 purely for land use. This alternate design was 7,000lbs lighter but no orders were received.
 
Venus6971
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:17 pm

Quoting spudh (Reply 20):

Did not verify your numbers but the F-15E with CFT's holds alot more gas which equals longer loiter times plus alot more ordinance and is still a superb platform for air to air. But unless the IAF buys a boom equipped tanker the F-15 is not in their future. BTW the USN is currently training the Indian Navy's pilots to be carrier qualified.
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spudh
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:43 pm

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 21):
Did not verify your numbers but the F-15E with CFT's holds alot more gas which equals longer loiter times plus alot more ordinance and is still a superb platform for air to air.

Hey, I'm not knocking the F15, I actually think it would be much better suited to the IAF than the SH. I was pointing out that the SH is far, far from a lightweight fighter.

For me, the only real advantages the SH has over the F15 is in cost per flight hour and cutting edge Radar/Avionics. The SH has reputedly genuine light fighter running costs, the F15 is still a 1970s vintage hangar queen in this respect.

As a pure airframe the F15 is still one hell of an ordnance delivery machine, probably the best mud mover out there and can still mix it with the best A to A.

BTW, the figure are from Wikipedia so treat them as such, but they're good enough to make the point.

[Edited 2011-02-10 10:45:06]
 
Devilfish
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:56 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 19):
I'm pulling this old thread out because I didn't want to start a new thread.

   Was at a loss why the points made were so behind the times!
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bikerthai
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:38 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 23):
Was at a loss why the points made were so behind the times!

   Couldn't find a recent thread concerning the curent India MRCA competition.

The competition decision will be made soon. I'm sure someone will start a new thread on this matter.

Until then, I was sure Aneters would appreciate the PR video of the latest F-18 incarnation.

bikerthai
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LMP737
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:50 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5):
A land based version of the F-18 without the extra gear needed for carrier operations is available. This version offers better performance as a result of being lighter. I believe many foreign governments have ordered that version.



No such version exists. To produce such an aircraft would drive up production costs. Spain took the launch bar off their F-18 fleet. I believe they are the only ones to have done so.

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 4):
Hate to interrupt a really good "Down with the US, they're all evil" rant you've got going, but I might point out here, BarfBag, that several Air Forces use the Hornet in a land-based role, including Australia, Kuwait, Finland, Switzerland, Spain, Canada, and Malaysia.



I don't think he meant it that way. It does make more sense, from an operational standpoint, to order aircraft that you already have in your inventory. On the other hand ordering the Super Hornet might be a good way for India to send Russia a message. You would also then have a very capable aircraft in your air force.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 12):
While I personally think anyone, including the USAF, USN, or USMC would be better off buying modern Su-30MK's over F/A-18F's for their respective prices, a decent fleet of Block II F/A-18F's could be a very wise investment.



Now that I'm done laughing I think anyone can easily see the problems with that. First there's the political, then there's the fact that they cannot operate off USN carriers. Then there's the product support, ask the Luftwaffe about the MIG-29. Along with the fact that Russia could cutoff support at any moment.
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:11 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 25):
Now that I'm done laughing I think anyone can easily see the problems with that. First there's the political, then there's the fact that they cannot operate off USN carriers. Then there's the product support, ask the Luftwaffe about the MIG-29. Along with the fact that Russia could cutoff support at any moment.

Given that the Iranians managed to reverse engineer parts for the F-14 I don't think manufacturing parts for an SU 30 would be an insurmountable problem for the US air industry. I'd guess 12 to 18 months after support cut-off you'd have either re-engined or re-manufactured SU 30's flying.

The political issue of buying them in the first place however may be a tougher problem to solve  
 
Devilfish
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:15 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 24):
Couldn't find a recent thread concerning the curent India MRCA competition.

Ah.....there's this thread which has only been current for the past 4-1/2 years.....  IAF Lightweight Fighter Competition (by DEVILFISH Sep 6 2006 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

But please do carry on.....it's now overly long and time to put it to bed.   

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 24):
The competition decision will be made soon. I'm sure someone will start a new thread on this matter.

I'll keep fingers and toes crossed for that to happen anon!    Just a carryover question from that thread to go on....."Whatever became of the itinerant offsets evaluations"?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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bikerthai
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:03 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 27):
Ah.....there's this thread which has only been current for the past 4-1/2 years..... IAF Lightweight Fighter Competition (by DEVILFISH Sep 6 2006 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

Foolish me . . . I was searching for Medium Weight Fighter.

You can put this thread to bed and move the Video to the other thread.

LOL.

bikerthai
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LMP737
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:51 pm

Quoting spudh (Reply 26):
Given that the Iranians managed to reverse engineer parts for the F-14 I don't think manufacturing parts for an SU 30 would be an insurmountable problem for the US air industry. I'd guess 12 to 18 months after support cut-off you'd have either re-engined or re-manufactured SU 30's flying.

The political issue of buying them in the first place however may be a tougher problem to solve

What happens in the time between support cutoff and making your own parts? We all can figure that one out. Let's be honest, the whole idea of the US flying Suhkois's is rather silly.
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Venus6971
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:28 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 25):
No such version exists. To produce such an aircraft would drive up production costs. Spain took the launch bar off their F-18 fleet. I believe they are the only ones to have done so.

I think even removing all the carrier landing equipment seriously affects the weight and balance of the acft. I think Spain did remove the ILS box on the nose gear which is used by a LSO to see if a acft is lined up to land safely and so has all non CV capable operators of the Hornet.
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Venus6971
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:32 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 25):
Now that I'm done laughing I think anyone can easily see the problems with that. First there's the political, then there's the fact that they cannot operate off USN carriers. Then there's the product support, ask the Luftwaffe about the MIG-29. Along with the fact that Russia could cutoff support at any moment.

They have never been known for customer service, if your jet breaks they tell to fly it back to the factory. Just like that commercial about the captial one credit card customer service. This Peggy how can I help.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
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bikerthai
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:01 pm

I've move the video link to the post suggested by DEVILFISH.

We can let this post rest in peace if everyone agree.

Moderator : suggest you lock this post.

Thanks
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wvsuperhornet
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:15 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 7):
Oh brother. Another American going off his rocker because I didn't have the nicest possible words to say about an American plane. The F/A-18 has never been seriously considered for any Indian mission role, particularly carrier based ops, where there's latitude for considering a capable aircraft. Make an argument where it fits into our orbat, if you can. Other countries have their own priorities, and they're not necessarily applicable to our own.
Quoting BarfBag (Reply 7):
Go back to the part of my response that you yourself quoted and show me the anti-American rant part. Geez, your response is amazing. I make what I see as a valid argument about the technical basis for the F/A-18 not being suitable for our use, and you go bawling "why do they hate us?" Nonav forum really scrapes off all the outer layers of peoples' skin eh ? :-|

What use were you going to have for them? If India is wanting a proven and reliable strike aircraft I got some bad news there isnt much out there better than the superhornet. Its a very underestimated aircraft and a very advanced aircraft the avionics is only matched by the F-22 and exceeded by the joint strike fighter. The US has no need to pacify india you are not a threat to us or our military. Honestly nobody in the US other than some money hungry suits at boeing really care if you buy our aircraft or not.

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 8):
Make a logical statement as to why it should fit into the Indian OrBat? That, indeed, is where it gets difficult due to the wide array of aircraft types the IAF currently fields, but I'd say to replace your MiG-29As, Bs, and UBs with it. Don't get me wrong - pursue the MiG-29Ks for Gorshkov, but do like more of the former Eastern-bloc nations are doing and junk your old Fulcrums. To start out with, the F/A-18 is one of the most easily maintained and most reliable fighter aircraft around so naturally, maintenance costs would be lower than, say, your MiG-29As or -Bs. Even early model F/A-18As were infamous for flying 3 times more hours than any other USN tactical jet while requiring half the maintenance. Also, if memory serves, the Klimov turbofans on the -29s require more intensive maintenance than the GEs on the Hornet. Further, as I stated, the F/A-18 carries a much wider array of air-to-ground ground armament than the MiG-29, which increases its value against any potential opponents of the IAF. Fly-by-wire controls give it a tactical edge as does the HOTAS design and the ability to switch from being a fighter to an attack jet at the push of a button. Lastly, the F/A-18, even with its infamous fuel factor woes, has better range than a MiG-29.

Very well put !!!!
 
Shmertspionem
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:19 pm

Heres the F-18 International Roadmap on offer to India

1

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 33):
If India is wanting a proven and reliable

Nope - this more About shiny jet syndrome than proven and reliable. What's wanted is a technology showcase .... even if 70-90% of that technology is way too advanced to absorb in the offset clause.

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 33):
strike aircraft

No MMRCA - multi role being the operational role.

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 33):
Honestly nobody in the US other than some money hungry suits at Boeing really care if you buy our aircraft or not.

Alas a lot of people do. 126 planes means a lot of Jobs - plus more importantly - its part of the China containment strategy. Buying US is not just about "BUYING U.S." its also about having a common tactical and hardware subset that can be rapidly turned against China if the need arises .... Basically and alliance without the formal garb of an Alliance.... say like Sweden in the cold war - officially neutral but the USSR was in no doubt where it would turn when push came to shove.

There is a lot more riding on the IAF's choice than just the mere "purchase".
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GolfOscarDelta
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:53 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 12):
While I personally think anyone, including the USAF, USN, or USMC would be better off buying modern Su-30MK's over F/A-18F's for their respective prices, a decent fleet of Block II F/A-18F's could be a very wise investment.

I think the closest the US has ever come to flying soviet made stuff in the armed forces are the Mig/Su/USSR/Russian Airforce liveried F-18's that they use for aggressor roles or the few Mig-29's ones they bought on the black market from Ukraine.

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 8):
To start out with, the F/A-18 is one of the most easily maintained and most reliable fighter aircraft around so naturally, maintenance costs would be lower than, say, your MiG-29As or -Bs.
Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 34):
Nope - this more About shiny jet syndrome than proven and reliable.

Nope with all due respect I think there's more to this than just Shiny Jet Syndrome.

Reliability, Maintainability and Rip-off gullibility is they main reason afaik that the IAF wants to move away from the Soviet Era airplanes. You fly them for a day and then if anything goes kaput you've got to take apart half the airplane and then find that part buried deep within, nothing ever comes in easily replaceable modules like the western airplanes. With the western airplanes you pull out the suspect module plonk another one in and fly away while your broken module alone goes in for service as opposed to the entire airplane going in for mx. And then there's the engines, anything goes kaput on them, you've got to drop them and send them back to Russia for mx.

Disclaimer: The following paragraph are my personal views and what I've inferred in casual conversation with some chaps and do not represent the position or the views of the IAF or its employees.
I've spoke to some of the IAF folks before and again at Aeroindia today the pilots absolutely love the Mig-29 and Su-30 and say no western airplane even comes close for the sheer joy and fun of flying, but then they are always on the edge as to whats going to go kaput when. And the mechs absolutely hate working on them or the fact that these airplanes and their parts make trips back to Russia/Ukraine so often.

Russian airplanes are kinda like rockstars or supercars they perform brilliantly in flight kinda like how a supercar does maneuvers or speeds an ordinary car cant do. They can land literally on plowed fields, kinda like rockstars who can get wasted one night and still wake up and perform brilliantly in the morning. But as much like rockstars or supercars who do badass stuff but are temperamental and need to be pampered so are the russian airplanes, may be they should be classified as superplanes. Either way the IAF is kinda sick of owning Ferraris that spontaneously ignite but rather wants an Accord or a Camry that can do the job day in and day out without breaking down on alternate days and can be fixed by any mechanic even in any ghetto alley and doesn't need a mechanic with three degrees following his name.

[Edited 2011-02-12 07:57:47]
 
Devilfish
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:17 pm

Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Reply 35):
the pilots absolutely love the Mig-29 and Su-30 and say no western airplane even comes close for the sheer joy and fun of flying

Perhaps an extended and more intimate association with Boeing's, LockMart's or Eurofighter's finest offerings could alter that perception a bit, than what the trials afforded?

Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Reply 35):
and can be fixed by any mechanic even in any ghetto alley and doesn't need a mechanic with three degrees following his name

Genius is a prerequisite for building exotica.....and for understanding them. And simplicity is its hallmark.
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LMP737
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:14 pm

Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Reply 35):
But as much like rockstars or supercars who do badass stuff but are temperamental and need to be pampered so are the russian airplanes, may be they should be classified as superplanes.



And like rockstars you never know when you are going find one in the morning OD lying in a pool of his own vomit. Sorry, I could not help myself.  
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wvsuperhornet
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:10 am

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 34):
Alas a lot of people do. 126 planes means a lot of Jobs - plus more importantly - its part of the China containment strategy. Buying US is not just about "BUYING U.S." its also about having a common tactical and hardware subset that can be rapidly turned against China if the need arises .... Basically and alliance without the formal garb of an Alliance.... say like Sweden in the cold war - officially neutral but the USSR was in no doubt where it would turn when push came to shove.

There is a lot more riding on the IAF's choice than just the mere "purchase".

Well I disgree with you on this there is no garantee that India would support the US in a conflict with China if needed. Unlike Australia (who purachased I beleive 24 or them) seems to back us no matter (at times) how dumb our ideas are. Other than expanding the current line I can't forsee this deal other than padding boeings pockets creating very many more jobs in the US. Maybe the nuclear power plant deal would but very unlikly this deal. Sorry I am still thanks but no thanks to india go buy another aircraft if you dont trust us.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:59 pm

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 38):
I can't forsee this deal other than padding boeings pockets creating very many more jobs in the US.

Remember, chances are the bulk of these fighters will be assembled in India. So along with the technical merit of each fighter, India will be acquiring the fabrication philosophy and experience provided by the winning company. To bad Toyota don't build fighter planes 

From this standpoint, who would you rather want to learn from?

bikerthai
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Shmertspionem
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:27 am

Here's the latest reason why NOT TO BUY AMERICAN -

http://www.thehindu.com/news/the-ind...s/article1565235.ece?homepage=true

http://www.thehindu.com/news/the-india-cables/article1565429.ece

its just broken this morning - but once parliament begins its session at 10 am expect that the US will not win another defence deal in India for a few years. As for CISMOA after this mornings revelations goodbye to comms interoperability....AFAIC the F-18 just lost any chance of winning the MMRCA after this mornings wikileaks (the f-16 was out of the competition right from the beginning anyway)

the gist re: India's purchase of BBJ-737-700's for VIP's AFTER negotiating the protocols - just prior to delivery the US then held up wanting sweeping new retro-active EUMs regarding the LAIRCM (large aircraft infra red countermeasures) and gradually included the whole plane in it. Basically India does not allow foreigners on any military inspections - so the fact that the Head of state and head of governments personal planes are going to be inspected is the most insulting part (from an Indian POV)

The galling part is that India caved to the demands almost immediately and was only concerned about the "wording" - everyone form the foreign secy to the NSA have commended the "face saving creative wording". Now given the US's retroactive demands and all the implications of these demands and now that the "face saving" no longer remains "face saving" I'm curious to see how any American sale with pass without the most intense scrutiny possible.

Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Reply 35):
I think there's more to this than just Shiny Jet Syndrome.

after the revealing of the J-20 this entire competition is a sad pathetic joke. a competition for a 4.5 gen fighter after china has shown a pretty darn good 5th gen plane is the height of SJS.... just like the Tejas - obsolete and irrelevant still-borns both.

given that the point of this was to achieve qualitative superiority given china's large Su-30/27 fleet - no matter how much you jam - and how superior your electronics are a Stealth fighter will simply go around your jamming periphery and attack your rear.... and the really irritating bit is that to a large extent it makes the ECM abilities irrevelant in certain critical AD and A-Sup roles.


Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 38):
Sorry I am still thanks but no thanks to india go buy another aircraft if you dont trust us.

read the Hindu expose above - the India trusts US heaps - more than it trusts it's own people evidently (typical of all banana republics - and India's sham democracy).... the US on the other hand does not trust India.

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 38):
there is no garantee that India would support the US in a conflict with China if needed

The point is the ability to wield a threat - If you look at the American calculus they don't want to spearhead another eastern NATO - rather they want the building blocks in place which suits them an every Asian country that simply doesn't want to/cant afford to oppose china openly....but the subtext is clearly full of menace.... You can read the contours of this "alliance in being" and opposed to NATO "alliance in force" equation in John Garver's "India China US triangle 1999-2007" article here

http://www.nbr.org/publications/issue.aspx?id=2 (sorry pay only)
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bikerthai
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RE: F18 Details -Why Should India Consider Them

Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:43 pm

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 40):
Here's the latest reason why NOT TO BUY AMERICAN -

Not until India get more clout in the US Congress. Maybe then they can get the politicians to keep the bureaucrats of your back 
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