duke
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Official Model Numbers Of Military 707s

Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:59 pm

Of the 1010 707/720s built, 93 were "military configured" E-3 communications aircraft, KE-3A tankers, E-6 and one YE-8B (which was maybe also made into an E-6???). My question is, these are military designations, used with several air forces that operate them, but what are these aircraft with regards to their Boeing model numbers? Do they even officially have them?

For example, are all of them 707-320Bs or 707-320Cs (technically or officially in Boeing books)? Are those that have CFM56 engines 707-320s or (as the one civil 707 with this engine was called before conversion to -300 standard with the old engine, "707-700s")?
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Official Model Numbers Of Military 707s

Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:15 am

They are 707-300 models. The 700 series was a testbed only. The only 707-700 was reconverted back to a 320C when it was delivered to the Morrocan Gov't. The KC/C-135 aircraft was actually billed as the 717 when it was originally offered. With the exception of the E-3 and a few E-6's, the rest were converted from passenger use. All of the E-8C's were former pax models. A few were ex BA, RJ, QR aircraft that hung around for extended years and became available right at the right time.

[Edited 2005-04-04 18:28:33]
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Lt-AWACS
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RE: Official Model Numbers Of Military 707s

Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:42 am

The E-3 is not a comm aircraft but a RADAR/battle management aircraft.
(The VC-137 was the "Air Force One" VIP version)

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duke
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RE: Official Model Numbers Of Military 707s

Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:17 am

The E-6s were not converted from passenger models, and I was neither talking about the presidential aircraft, nor about the E-8s, which are so-called commercially configured aircraft or conversions thereof.
 
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bully707
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RE: Official Model Numbers Of Military 707s

Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:38 am

At NATO, next to the 17 E-3As we also have 3 TCA (Training and Cargo Aircraft).
Although we call them TCA, officially the are B707-3xxC ( 1 is ex German Airforce and 2 are (were) ex SN )

Sorry that I can't be of any help....

Godspeed

Bully
"That's the good thing about the 707...it can do anything, but read!" Joe Patroni, Airport '70
 
duke
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RE: Official Model Numbers Of Military 707s

Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:26 pm

Okay, maybe it would be good to clarify what 707s are or have ben in different military services out there:

1) commercially-configured planes flying as military tankers/transports/trainers (ex-civil 707s with the USAF, the NATO (ex-Luftwaffe) 707s, the former USAF Air Force Ones, planes converted from civillian to military, eg. IIRC the Italian air force, Israeli air force and formerly Canadian air force 707s). They are commercially configured because, if I understand correctly, it wouldn't be to hard to make these planes into commercial planes, or they were already. Note that Iranian air force 707s which used to be tankers are now serving as airliners. Note also that the E-8s are converted from such planes.

2) military-configured planes built very specifically as military communication/tanker aircraft and probably harder to turn into airliners. 93 of these were built, the majority E-3 Sentry aircraft, but also 16 E-6 for the US Navy, 8 KE-3A tankers for Saudi Arabia, and one aircraft which I think has been a Grumman test aircraft and designated YE-8B, but which I think became or was used for some time as an E-6. I AM INTERESTED IN WHETHER THESE AIRCRAFT ARE CLASSIFIED AS 707-320, 707-320B, 707-320C, 707-700, a combination of this, or none of this.

3) aircraft which look like 707s, but are not. Namely the KC-135 tanker/transport, many of which were built and which carried the Boeing model number 717 (and some the model number 739).
 
Venus6971
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RE: Official Model Numbers Of Military 707s

Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:07 am

I AM INTERESTED IN WHETHER THESE AIRCRAFT ARE CLASSIFIED AS 707-320, 707-320B, 707-320C, 707-700, a combination of this, or none of this.

The E-3 and E-6 are 707-320's but the first 2 E-3's (71-1407,71-1408)were designated EC-137's and stand up close to them and know what to look for you will see many commerical 707 attributes. Actually 1407 is a little bit longer and 1408 is little bit shorter in fuselage. The AR shroud in 1408 was always hard to get in and out compared to the rest of the fleet.
There used to be a picture on the Anet of 1408 in its civilian colors in Seattle but it is not in the data base anymore
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Official Model Numbers Of Military 707s

Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:17 pm

Venus-1407 and 1408 were both airliners before being converted, Argentina IIRC.

Duke I think I was a bit confused with your original question thanks for clarification. Also IIRC the VC-137s were all new build military models and not rebuild commercial aircraft, I'll check bill harm's site and a few others to confirm.

Also some of the E-8 J-STARS were converted from USAF TC-18s (707-320s).
sidenote- the E-3 is not a communication aircraft, but a Radar/Battle Management aircraft, big difference. Certain C-135 models do have super comm capes. The Saudi KE-3s were originally part of the E-3A AWACS order but were converted after 5 AWACS were delivered to Saudi Arabia.

E-3 models include the A (NATO and Saudi Arabia), the B and C models USAF, the D model RAF, and the F model France.

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aeroweanie
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RE: Official Model Numbers Of Military 707s

Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:00 pm

> Venus-1407 and 1408 were both airliners before being converted, Argentina IIRC.

No, both aircraft came off the 707 assembly line and were delivered directly to Boeing Aerospace for conversion to EC-137Ds. One got the Hughes radar (07) and one got the Westinghouse radar (08) for the competitive evaluation. The Hughes radar lost and this airplane was converted over to have the Westinghouse radar and both were upgraded to become E-3As. My source is the article "AWACS - A Better Balloon" published in the January 1975 edition of Air International.
 
Venus6971
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RE: Official Model Numbers Of Military 707s

Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:46 pm

1408 had the Hughes radar before being coverted to E-3 standard
Lt AWACS the Argentine story was about 1408 that was a option to buy but Argentine Air did not exercise, 1407 and 1408 were not delivered until after all the 75 models were delivered.
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aeroweanie
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RE: Official Model Numbers Of Military 707s

Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:00 pm

The article didn't say explicitly which aircraft had which radar. However, I noticed in a picture that 07 had a belly mounted heat exchanger that does not appear on the E-3s, so I figured it was the Hughes radar aircraft.
 
duke
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RE: Official Model Numbers Of Military 707s

Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:24 pm

Okay, further clarification. The 1407 and 1408/EC-137s were like E-3 prototypes, and while they were never USED as airliners, they were built as airliners/commercially configured jets. They were two 707-347s that were undeliverable to Western Airlines. They had the big radar dish installed, and eventually were given a rebuild (even getting new line numbers, so that the 707/720 production sequence has 1012 numbers whereas only 1010 actual aircraft were built) and by this became E-3s. They are counted in my total above of military-configured 707s.
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Official Model Numbers Of Military 707s

Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:02 pm

That explains the photo of 1408 in the MOS with Argentina titles and a rotodome on it, funny picture.

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aeroweanie
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RE: Official Model Numbers Of Military 707s

Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:49 pm

> They were two 707-347s that were undeliverable to Western Airlines.

Are you sure? The article says that they were ordered by Boeing Aerospace explicitly for the EC-137D program. This could be a cover for "we had white tails that we convienently got rid of." BTW - the Canadian AF 707s were undelivered Western aircraft - are you getting mixed up with them?
 
Venus6971
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RE: Official Model Numbers Of Military 707s

Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:30 am

All I know for sure is that when you take down the galley wainscotting on 1408 you could still see were windows were installed
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Official Model Numbers Of Military 707s

Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:41 am

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 2):
The VC-137 was the "Air Force One" VIP version

The only customer designators that i'm aware of is the USAF VC-137C's, which were known as 707-153/353B's until they were delivered.

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 6):
I AM INTERESTED IN WHETHER THESE AIRCRAFT ARE CLASSIFIED AS 707-320, 707-320B, 707-320C, 707-700

According to a list I picked up, it lists the EC-137D, E-3A/B/D/F,KE-3A were -320B's while the E-6A/B, and E-B's are listed as -320C's. The E-8C's were the TC-18's that Lt-AWACS posted. It lists the the one 707-700 with parenthesis saying "refurbished as -3W6 for Morrocan gov't".

are the only military 707's ordered from Boeing that I can think of that had their own block designators. I believe most, if not all of the others were converted from civilian use

Quoting Duke (Reply 3):
The E-6s were not converted from passenger models

Yes you're right. I was with VQ-3 when we recieved the first E-6A(162782) from Pax River in 1989. It was the 2 training 707's that we used at the time, that were the 2 AA models that we had. When I checked in the squadron from A school, I was told by my workcenter supervisor that they were former airliners. I didn't know how to research aircraft back in 1989, so pardon my missinformation. I never got to fly an operational mission in the airplane my whole 3.5 years in the squadron. All we did was T&E flights(training and evaluation) and FCF(functional check flights) after maintnence checks.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Official Model Numbers Of Military 707s

Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:47 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 15):
The only customer designators that i'm aware of is the USAF VC-137C's, which were known as 707-153/353B's until they were delivered.

The B-707-153 were designated as USAF VC-137As, then Bs after they were re-engined with fan jet engines. The B-707-353Bs were designated as VC-137Cs.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Official Model Numbers Of Military 707s

Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:31 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 16):
The B-707-153 were designated as USAF VC-137As, then Bs after they were re-engined with fan jet engines. The B-707-353Bs were designated as VC-137Cs

Yes, a slight techicality.
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