AirRyan
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Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:27 am

I heard some analysts on FOXnews this morning talking about how this new Russian cruise missile basically renders Star Wars obsolete, and the US/West has nothing to counter it. Unlike an ICBM, this missile never goes into orbit and thereby SW will never see it or be able to hit it. They said how all the money spent on Star Wars, at nearly $100 for every US citizen has essentially been rendered useless.

They said how you could toss a nuclear tipped variant towards D.C. from 500-1,000 miles offshore and because of it's low-altitude trajectory combined with stealth characteristics, this totally changes things as we know it. Combined with Russia's penchant to sell to anyone such as North Korea or China, this doesn't sound like very good news for the West.

So, is the X-555 as revolutionary and thereby as potentially dangerous as it's made out?

Quote:

Russia successfully tests high-precision long-range cruise missile
News From Russia
May 30, 2005, 17:49


Russia has successfully tested a high-precision long-range cruise missile, said Lieutenant-General Alexander Rakhmanov, deputy chief of armaments directorate of the Russian Armed Forces.

"The cruise missile flew right into the window after traveling 2,000 kilometers," said Mr. Rakhmanov describing the test flight of the cruise missile. Mr. Rakhmanov took part in the round-table discussions on innovation in defense industry that was held the Russian Academy of Sciences.

According to him, the X-555 cruise missile is built on the basis of all state-of-the-art technologies used for developing high-precision weapons. "This is an old missile that has been modernized using all the state-of-the-art technologies," said he.

The long-rage cruise missile with a non-nuclear warhead entered service with the Russian Strategic Air Force last year. The missile is designed for hitting ground targets with pinpoint accuracy.

The Russian military expects to use the missile in local armed conflicts and antiterrorist operations. Only the U.S. Air Force has similar missiles, according to Izvestia. In the past, the Russian Air Force had only X-55, a nuclear-warhead cruise missile capable of hitting targets within the range up to 3,000 kilometers. The new cruise missile X-555 is a modification of the X-55. It is equipped with a homing-guidance warhead and therefore can be used as a high-precision weapon.


URL of this article:
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_002464.shtml

 
dl021
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:58 am

I don't think this changes anything for us. These weapons have been out there for a while, and while the stealth aspects of this (perhaps something gleaned from examining the F-117 shot down in Serbia?) are worthy of concern, I don't plan on being worried until the Russians try and sell this to the Chinese or someone who is likely to transfer the tech somewhere else.

Then we need a countermeasure.
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AirRyan
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:03 am

The thing the military advisors were saying makes this weapon all the more particularly lethal is it's longer ranger. I would agree, platforms such as CIWS are designed for this, but the thought that a nuke tipped one could be launched at such a range, well in the hands of even a remotely inept military might be able to level the battlefield.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:43 am

Is this cruise missile supersonic or not?

I thought Aegis and Patriot missiles and other theater defense systems should be able to take out standard cruise missiles, as long as you can locate them.
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Ozair
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:48 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
The cruise missile flew right into the window after traveling 2,000 kilometers,"

So it is really just a tomahawk land attack with a possible nuc option.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 3):
I thought Aegis and Patriot missiles and other theater defense systems should be able to take out standard cruise missiles, as long as you can locate them.

This scenario is what the navy and army ballistic defense programs receive money for. The PAC-3 and the SM-3 will be able to take this out if it follows a ballistic trajectory. If it's just a terrian following cruise missile your stuffed. You will never be able to cover the entire coast from cruise missile attack, not with these technologies anyway.

Not that I think the whole missile shield is a good idea. Seems a half-baked option IMO. Too little and not capable enough. Threats to the US are more likely to emerge from other areas than these.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:56 pm

The X-55/5 is as I understand it, a terrain following cruise missile with stealth technology combined wiith an incredibly long range, with the ability to carry a nuclear payload.

It sounds like as far back as 1980's the former Soviet Union used to tell Reagen not to waste his money on Star Wars because one day soon they would have a missile that would render it useless; it looks like that day has come.
 
SATL382G
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:22 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 5):
It sounds like as far back as 1980's the former Soviet Union used to tell Reagen not to waste his money on Star Wars because one day soon they would have a missile that would render it useless; it looks like that day has come.

Why is it such a difficult threat to defend against? Use a layered defense.

Layer 1. Cover the the other guys launch platforms (subs, ships, Cuba etc). Take them out before he can launch. We can do this today. 2000 kliqs isn't that far, they get in that close we can find the platform and destroy it prelaunch. A reborn WWII Q-ship could be a problem.

Layer 2. Provide an adequate air defense. Take out the cruise missile enroute. Cue the air defense from a DSP satellite. Use air defense radar assets to max advantage. We can do this today if we try really, really, hard.

Layer 3. Provide adequate terminal area air defense. Protect max value targets with Patriot, Standard, and ABL. If all else fails take a last chance crack at it with CIWS and Stinger.

Layer 2 is where we need work. Not enough fighters on strip alert and not enough AWACS/Aegis IMO. Though I believe there is black technology that will help improve this.

BTW: layer 3 assumes certain cities are expendable. We defend DC, NYC, Norfolk, LA, Seattle, Charleston, San Diego, San Fran, Jacksonville, etc. We defend Boston, Atlanta, Cinncinatti etc if we can. We don't worry about Denver, Omaha, Minneapolis, Grand Forks, etc because they are out of range.

Not so tough, just pricey.
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AirRyan
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:08 am

Perhpas the greatest devestation to this new type of long range cruise missile is the simple fact that unlike an ICBM launch into orbit, we would never know the missile was even fired until it was too late.

Combined with Russia's penchant for selling anything to anyone for the right price, this missile appears to be quite a blow to the West as I can tell.
 
SATL382G
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:17 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 7):
Perhpas the greatest devestation to this new type of long range cruise missile is the simple fact that unlike an ICBM launch into orbit, we would never know the missile was even fired until it was too late.

Sure we would -- that's what DSP sats are for. Why do you think nations have to be so careful when launching sounding rockets?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/dsp.htm

[Edited 2005-06-06 21:21:27]

edit: CNN article on stealth shootdown:
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9903/28/nato.strike.01/index.html

[Edited 2005-06-06 21:30:46]
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norcal
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:19 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 1):
These weapons have been out there for a while, and while the stealth aspects of this (perhaps something gleaned from examining the F-117 shot down in Serbia?) are worthy of concern, I don't plan on being worried until the Russians try and sell this to the Chinese or someone who is likely to transfer the tech somewhere else.

A stealth was shot down in Serbia? How did this happen? Was it a SAM, or AA fire?
 
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:59 am

Quoting NorCal (Reply 9):
A stealth was shot down in Serbia? How did this happen? Was it a SAM, or AA fire?

It was a bunch of stupid NATO generals(probably French) who kept sending the airplane down the same route night after night. The Serbs got wise to it and basicly picked a patch of sky and then put up enough AAA gunfire in that spot so that they where bound to hit something.
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dl021
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:59 am

Quoting NorCal (Reply 9):
A stealth was shot down in Serbia? How did this happen? Was it a SAM, or AA fire?

We lost an F-117 to a flak trap set up in Serbia as the aircraft was egressing. The rumor mill is that they were waiting for the plane as it was using that route to come in and out at various times and they decided to wait until it came through and hose the sky with flak and ir missiles. There is also rumor that the mission was compromised by one of our 'allies', or more specifically, some of their officers carrying out instructions to limit the damage to the Serbs by telling them when to duck. Just rumor though.

The pilot was picked up by a US CSAR helo (the backup CSAR bird a few minutes away was a French one) and the remains of the airplane were bombed into pieces, but they were unable to completely destroy the stealth fighter. The technology at that point was over 20 years old for us, but the assumption is that we were more than that far ahead of everyone else in the development of stealth technology. It is assumed that the Serbs turned pieces of the airplane over to their friends in Russia, as well as to the Chinese who were sponsoring them in various ways. If that's the case, and I think it is, then those two countries could have picked up some new info on RAM materials and paint, the avionics, the ordnance delivery systems, the actual angles and metallurgy that until then they had to guess at.

This will serve to reduce the effectiveness of the older stealth aircraft (the slide rule designed F-117 versus the CAD B-2 and F-22) and leave us at more risk the next time they are in combat with someone who has access to the technology and the results of the studies that must have been done.
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norcal
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:26 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):

Thanks for the info. Espionage always sucks when it happens to you.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:34 am

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 8):
that's what DSP sats are for. Why do you think nations have to be so careful when launching sounding rockets?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/...p.htm

DSP's as I understand are designed to detect ballistic missiles such as SCUDS as you pointed out, by picking up the IR sig of a booster motor above cloud layer as the missile goes up into low orbit.

Cruise missiles are a whole new ballgame - they can be fired from a modified airliner to a submarine, and their flight path never takes them into orbit.

There is nothing particularly novel in the X-555, but the fact that it combines all these high-tech advancements in missile tech from it's immense range, nuke payload capability, and stealth tech combined with the potential for these missiles to hit the open black market because the Russian government would rather have the cash, well these missiles are as easy to track as it would be to try and account for each and every general aviation aircrfat or even a helicopter hugging the terrain with no transponder, no radar emitting, and even stealth technologies to make it all the more improbable that radar would pick it up if it even saw it.
 
SATL382G
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:31 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 13):
DSP's as I understand are designed to detect ballistic missiles such as SCUDS as you pointed out, by picking up the IR sig of a booster motor above cloud layer as the missile goes up into low orbit.

Ballistic missiles by definition do not go into "low orbit" as you state.

The DSPs pickup the IR signature of a missile launch. Ballistic, Orbital, Air Defense, Sounding, ground launched cruise missile whatever it doesn't matter. Cloud cover is irrelevant where IR is concerned.
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STT757
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:45 am

This from AWST in May..

"E-10 Radar Secretly Designed To Jam Missiles

The technological walls separating radar, electronic warfare and missile defense are coming down. This fundamental shift has resulted in development, not yet publicly acknowledged, of multifunction, active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars that can locate stealthy airborne targets and then jam their computers and guidance systems with at least enough effect to drive them off course by using a focused beam of X-band radar energy. "

The F-22 will also have this technology to find and attack stealthy Cruise missiles.
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dl021
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:48 am

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 14):
The DSPs pickup the IR signature of a missile launch.

I know about picking up the launch blooms, but what about jet engine starts on the cruise missiles like the AS-4 and its other jet powered cruisers? There's no rocket bloom from those aircraft to pick up. Would we not need E-8s up in the air fulltime to monitor such activity?

Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
"E-10 Radar Secretly Designed To Jam Missiles

Hey....can't anyone keep a secret anymore?
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SATL382G
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:53 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 16):
I know about picking up the launch blooms, but what about jet engine starts on the cruise missiles like the AS-4 and its other jet powered cruisers? There's no rocket bloom from those aircraft to pick up. Would we not need E-8s up in the air fulltime to monitor such activity?

I'm talkin' GLCMs or ship launched.

We'll need the E-3/E-8 or the long range ground based radar (shutdown some years ago) or the "black" tech. Probably some combination of all three.

regards
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dl021
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:34 am

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 17):
long range ground based radar (shutdown some years ago)

What do you think it would take to restart the land based phased arrays? Theres an old site down in South Georgia that is still sectioned off, near the old B-52 base where they have the brewery near Albany.

Could the Cobra Judy or the like distinguish between ground clutter?

I gotta look this stuff up. The more I think about it the more I wonder. If they could do this with a supersonic missile we could have some trouble. This might be an impetus to restart the aerostat program.
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DeltaGuy
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:50 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 18):
Theres an old site down in South Georgia that is still sectioned off, near the old B-52 base where they have the brewery near Albany.

I flew over that direction not too long ago, that was the site of NAS Albany, an RA-5C Vigilante base during the 'Nam years (you're right, it was a B-52 base, before the Navy moved in). The Navy shut the place down after Nam, and the Miller Brewing Company moved in there, pretty much built everything on the big old runway, IIRC. Need to go over there and do some exploration sometime. (Uncle was a Viggie driver there back in the 70's, heard some neat stories about the place).

Never heard about these radars though, would be interesting to check it out.

DeltaGuy
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Ozair
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:01 pm

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 17):
the long range ground based radar (shutdown some years ago)

Us Australians (with the help of US contractors of course) have developed this great Over The Horizon Jindalee radar that would be perfect for this. It has something like a 1500km range but not sure of the actual distance. I am sure this will have the ability to pick up a fast mover down in the weeds where any decent cruise missile should be.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:52 pm

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 17):
'm talkin' GLCMs or ship launched.

They can use a cold launch system, e.g. using compressed air catapults instead of the more common solid fuel launching rocket motors.

Jan
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dl021
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:33 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 21):
They can use a cold launch system, e.g. using compressed air catapults instead of the more common solid fuel launching rocket motors.

Can you launch something of that size with compressed air? I know the Navy can put torps out a tube, but they use rockets to boost the SSBNs out of the water after they clear the launch tubes.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 20):
this great Over The Horizon Jindalee radar that would be perfect for this

Can Jindalee sort through ground clutter? Does it not require the input of Wedgetail as well?
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SATL382G
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:50 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 21):
They can use a cold launch system, e.g. using compressed air catapults instead of the more common solid fuel launching rocket motors.

I'd like to see that system. It's one thing to push a SLBM out of the water or a torp out of a tube, quite another to get a multi mach cruise missile up to flying/engine start speed.

I think I got us off track talking about surface launched cruise missiles. Isn't this "X-555" an air launched system?

OTH-B is the radar whose name I was trying to think of in reply 17.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/systems/an-fps-118.htm

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 19):
...and the Miller Brewing Company moved in there, pretty much built everything on the big old runway...

Brewery and a runway?!? Sounds like roadtrip time.....
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dl021
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:20 am

I can't think of a compressed air means of launch on a missile this size, but I do believe SATL is right....this is an airlaunched deal, and I believe that an airlaunched cruiser is released from the A/C without rocketry, and the jet engine starts upon release.

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 23):
Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 19):
...and the Miller Brewing Company moved in there, pretty much built everything on the big old runway...

Brewery and a runway?!? Sounds like roadtrip time.....

Yeah..but they covered just about the entire runway, and you can't tell there was ever a nuclear bomber base there anymore.
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SATL382G
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 24):
Yeah..but they covered just about the entire runway, and you can't tell there was ever a nuclear bomber base there anymore.

Ya got me curious now. Is this it? I just went to google and picked the only thing I saw in Albany that looked like a B-52 runway......

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=31.59...89&spn=0.051842,0.062227&t=k&hl=en
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dl021
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:01 pm

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 25):
Ya got me curious now. Is this it? I just went to google and picked the only thing I saw in Albany that looked like a B-52 runway......

Dude, you are gonna love this website, if you have not yet seen it...

http://www.airfields-freeman.com/GA/Airfields_GA_SW.htm#turner

Go there and see. Short answer...yes, I believe that's what you are seeing. Unfortunately Keyhole/Googlemaps does not offer 1 meter resolution there but you can make out the brewery in the middle of the field. The runways are all but gone however the ends appear to be still remaining and you can make out where everything was from the air. Compare the two visuals from the googlemap to the other site.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:51 pm

I can imagine something like an aircraft carrier catapult start, with the engines running and the missile then accellerating to full speed once in the air. To take off, it would just need to reach a speed of maybe 200 km/h.

Jan
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SATL382G
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:13 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 27):
I can imagine something like an aircraft carrier catapult start, with the engines running and the missile then accellerating to full speed once in the air. To take off, it would just need to reach a speed of maybe 200 km/h.

I think the rate of fire would be low and the mechanism vulnerable to damage. In fact it sounds remarkably similiar to the method used to launch V1s in WWII.
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
SATL382G
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RE: Russia X-555: The Future Of Star Wars & ICBMs

Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:41 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 26):
Dude, you are gonna love this website, if you have not yet seen it

That's cool, lots of good info....

I found this one a few minutes ago. I think Miller sponsors it...

http://www.turnerfield-miller.com/
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill

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