USAFHummer
Topic Author
Posts: 10261
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 12:22 pm

Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:05 pm

Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:31 pm

From the article:

>>A chance encounter over the Lake District between a Eurofighter trainer and two F-15 aircraft turned into a mock dogfight, with the British plane coming off best - much to the surprise of some in the RAF. The episode was hushed up for fear of causing US blushes.

Hmm... I'm suspicious of that  Wink

Not so much that the Eurofighter won, it's the more modern airplane, but that the USAF was horribly embarrased. Wasn't it rumoured that when the USAF was playing "hush hush" (air quotes) over the F-15 loss to the IAF they were really trying to play-up the case for the F-22 superfighter?

USAF pilot infront of appropriations committee:

"Oh man... we lost again! I wasn't expecting a cutting edge fighter to beat me, man I wish we had something high-tech that won't be slimmed down to anemic numbers."
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:04 pm

FWIW, those were E's. Heavier than the C/D so, if it is as published, so what. The E, Strike Eagle, is Air to Ground.
Fly fast, live slow
 
Kukkudrill
Posts: 1039
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:11 pm

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:27 pm

And the article says the F-15E is "widely regarded as the best fighter in the world". Talk about journalists playing it up.
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:37 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 2):
FWIW, those were E's. Heavier than the C/D so, if it is as published, so what. The E, Strike Eagle, is Air to Ground.

But the C/D versions are additionaly are at least 5-10 years older than the E-Versions ... in dog fights the EF is in any case better than a F-15. It's lighter and more agile as it can fly slower due delta wings and canards and faster due to its higher relative power. Also its lower weight and canards should give some better maneuverability. Additionally the EF pilot is by far better supported by the aircraft. He has to think less than the F-15 pilot.

In BVR combat the E-version radar should have some advanatages over that of the C/D version. But in AA-mode it's less capabale than the CAPTOR radar of the EF.

The EF was designed to be better than the F-15, it's not a miracle that it proved better at least in this particular situation.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:13 pm

Quoting USAFHummer (Thread starter):
Wasn't it rumoured that when the USAF was playing "hush hush" (air quotes) over the F-15 loss to the IAF they were really trying to play-up the case for the F-22 superfighter?

I wonder what the Score card read.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:08 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 4):
In BVR combat the E-version radar should have some advanatages over that of the C/D version. But in AA-mode it's less capabale than the CAPTOR radar of the EF.

The radar on the E is for Air-Ground. The E is the leading deep interdiction platform for the USAF. It is not optimized for air to air. The E should have been at a disadvantage

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 4):
But the C/D versions are additionaly are at least 5-10 years older than the E-Versions ... in dog fights the EF is in any case better than a F-15. It's lighter and more agile as it can fly slower due delta wings and canards and faster due to its higher relative power. Also its lower weight and canards should give some better maneuverability. Additionally the EF pilot is by far better supported by the aircraft. He has to think less than the F-15 pilot.

The C model would have had a slightly better thrust/weight ration than the EF. In addition, the EF isn't faster than the F-15 and the 15 should be able to go vertical and keep up with the EF without any problems. As far as thinking less, I won't touch that at all, but in close in combat, it becomse all about the pilot.
Fly fast, live slow
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:55 pm

Sorry guys, I heard about this or an exactly similar event months ago. I think it was likely a propoganda tool yo help the British save some face over the setbacks of the EF program. The USAF apparantly had no problem doing the same thing aginst the Indian Sues so as to help get more funds for their F-22, so you can rest assure the US Air Force knows how to fight in their Eagles.

And even if this wasn't the case, there are so many variables in situations like this so until an actual fight happens, and pilots motives are not in question, I don't think any differently of the Eagle just yet.
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:26 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 6):
The radar on the E is for Air-Ground. The E is the leading deep interdiction platform for the USAF. It is not optimized for air to air. The E should have been at a disadvantage

The E-Version is was designed as a Multi-Role fighter with an emphasis on strike missions. Its APG-70X radar has an excellent Air-to-Air mode and which is superior to the APG-63 in all aspects. Additionally it is Air-toGround capable. The only real advanatge that the (A/B)/C/D version have is weight and therewith maneuverability. But the E-Version is the better BVR-Fighter, even though that's not its primary mission.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 6):
The C model would have had a slightly better thrust/weight ration than the EF. In addition, the EF isn't faster than the F-15 and the 15 should be able to go vertical and keep up with the EF without any problems. As far as thinking less, I won't touch that at all, but in close in combat, it becomse all about the pilot.

The F-15 flies about 2,5 Mach at max which is theoretical. In practice speeds of more than Mach 1,6 will hardly be flown. The EF has a max speed of Mach 2, but can easily use the full range of speeds between extremely slow and Mach 1,8. It can also reach Mach 1,5 without afterburner (Supercruise), which the F-15 cannot. This is what I meant.

BTW: As long as we don't shoot at each other the F-15 vs EF discusion is useless and obsolete. To a great extent they even use the same weapons. A comparison with the many versions of the SU-27 is much more worhtwhile ... and much more difficult.
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:48 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 8):
BTW: As long as we don't shoot at each other the F-15 vs EF discusion is useless and obsolete.

I agree - get the bugs ironed out on the EF and I'll take an entire Wing full of dual seat EuroFighters for my Air Force anyday.
 
tnsaf
Posts: 122
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:58 pm

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:51 pm

Congratulations Europe! A design some 20 years younger than its opponent wins in a dog fight! What was it supposed to do!

Eurofighter does everything an F-18 does only 20 years later!
700 hours and counting...
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:25 pm

Quoting Tnsaf (Reply 10):
Congratulations Europe! A design some 20 years younger than its opponent wins in a dog fight! What was it supposed to do!

Well, they should be glad about this. I mean if it lost, they'd have some issues.

Anyone else think this is a joint "smoke up the ass" campaign by the RAF and USAF? Technically everyone wins...RAF wins vindication for the EF, the USAF has another "case" for getting more F/A-22s in service. Just speculating I suppose.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
Contact_tower
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:05 am

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:22 am

Quote:
Eurofighter does everything an F-18 does only 20 years later!

Hehe, the F-18 is gonna struggle against the EF my friend!
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:48 pm

Quoting Contact_tower (Reply 12):
Hehe, the F-18 is gonna struggle against the EF my friend!

That is certainly true for all A-D versions. For this versions a comparison is almost ridiculous (power, avionics, weapon load etc pp.) The F-18 E/F comes closer, but is somehow a different plane. It was designed as a multi purpose platform. The EF will only be used as a strike and recon aircraft due to budget cuts. But chances are good that it won't perform too bad in this role ... .

Cheers,
Jan
 
tnsaf
Posts: 122
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:58 pm

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:26 pm

For all the money spent and the delays encountered it should bring something to the table, beyond being just air to air.
700 hours and counting...
 
Sinlock
Posts: 1631
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:55 am

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:26 am

I'd sure hope the EF could beat the F-15C after all the time and money spent, and the 15E even more. When the F-15E has the comformal fuel tanks installed it's limited to 6.3 Gs
 
NBGSkyGod
Posts: 810
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 7:30 am

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:05 am

A few months back we had a det of F14s down here. They went up against our LaANG F15s, on a 2 F15 vs. 1 F14. The Tomcats came out on top.
Pilots are idots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
wingman
Posts: 2793
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:23 am

From everything I'm reading here it would the F15 is a piece of junk and yet, to my knowledge, it remains the only modern fighter in history to have an unblemished combat record. I think it stands at 115-0 the last time I read.
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:22 pm

Quoting Tnsaf (Reply 14):
For all the money spent and the delays encountered it should bring something to the table, beyond being just air to air.

From a tax payers perspective I cannot contradict. The design of the EF is very flexible as regards its adaption to other tasks. But everything that relates to its air frame is pretty hard to change. Just think of its (optional) FLIR system. It will installed below the forward end of the canopy. A useless position for Air to Ground purposes ... .
 
Duce50Boom
Posts: 723
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 8:03 am

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:44 am

Hmmm....No sources on the story. No information or unbiased perspective, ie, the F-15 could've been loaded down with stores (try explaining to the wing king that he combat jettisonned 10,000 pounds so he wouldn't lose to a EF). Sounds like a typical British newspaper article. Or the NY times, or the Washington Times, post, or just about any newspaper out there, really.

"The British pilots themselves were almost as surprised at winning an encounter with an aircraft widely regarded as the best fighter in the world"

Not for ACM it isn't. The mudhen is about as much of a close-in dogfighter as the B-52 is a tanker........it can do it, but it's not worth the effort unless the excretement has really hit the rotary air circulation device
 
AFHokie
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 3:29 am

RE: Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight

Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:17 pm

131-0 is the Eagle's record.

As Duce said, no amplifying info, was it BFM, ACM, BVR, a mix? What was their load out, fuel state, etc. What were their restrictions? alt, airspace size, degrees of turn allowed before calling terminate? Was it an improptu engagement, or did both sides take off expecting to tangle with each other? Pilot experience? I'm guessing that right now all Eurofighter pilots are fairly experienced pilots, with plenty of time in other fighters, and if the engagement happened on the fly, there is a pretty good chance that at least one of the Beagle drivers was a fairly junior pilot. Unless you have the whole picture, everything is pure speculation

Also got to remember, the Eurofighter is still very new, very few have flown against it or have seen what it's cap's are, to develop tactics to counter it, where as I'm betting the eurofighter pilots have flown against eagles and beagles in other aircraft before.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: hemispheres and 5 guests