dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

Paris Air Show: Military Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:03 am

OK...here they are..the military birds of Paris. There were more, and I have some movie video I'll try to put up on my website, but for now enjoy and ask any questions you have. I spoke to all the pilots and ground crew I could.

The pilots were very proud of their airplane, and have flown it in combat conditions. The international standard makes this probably the best value attack/scout bird out there. Perhaps the US should look into it for a Warrior replacement?
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/ewobjr/116-1688_IMG.jpg


Silent death from above. This thing can glide straight into a 5 meter square zone...in other words into a large window or hangar door. Silently...the only thing you'll hear is the clicking of the control surfaces moving.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/ewobjr/117-1744_IMG.jpg

Not so quiet, but faster and even more accurate, supposedly one meter square accuracy. I think the idea is that the target hears the blast from the explosion before they hear the jet turbine.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/ewobjr/117-1750_IMG.jpg

The future of aerial combat vehicles. Adaptable and multimission capable. No human inside to slow it down, but still one at the controls remotely.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/ewobjr/117-1748_IMG.jpg

The ultimate in Eurocoop technology with Top Gun Tony contemplating his role as a Chevalier du Ciel .
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/ewobjr/116-1685_IMG.jpg

Indian Aviation is building up steam!
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/ewobjr/airshow%20trip/117-1701_IMG.jpg

Glass cockpit...thanks to ground crew for letting me sit up front!
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/ewobjr/airshow%20trip/117-1703_IMG.jpg

sorry to ruin the pretty bird with my mug, but notice the removable cannon mount on the side
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/ewobjr/airshow%20trip/117-1704_IMG.jpg

The last manned fighter according to some. The penultimate of multi mission affordable F/A aircraft.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/ewobjr/airshow%20trip/117-1722_IMG.jpg

Teeth!
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/ewobjr/airshow%20trip/117-1738_IMG.jpg

Motorvator..notice the shaft drive for the vertical ducted fan.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/ewobjr/airshow%20trip/117-1747_IMG.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/ewobjr/airshow%20trip/117-1746_IMG.jpg
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DeltaGuy
Posts: 3965
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RE: Paris Air Show: Military Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:25 am

Hey Ian, thanks for the neat little phototour Big grin Most folks would be infatuated with the A380 and stuff, but it was nice to see some of the military's little projects. Especially liked that display of the JSF's engine assembly.

Next time, tell that dude to get out of the way of that helo  Wink

By any chance, did you see the Omega Tanker out there? Apparently it towed a Hornet over there for the show, so I heard.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
AirRyan
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RE: Paris Air Show: Military Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:50 am

I often wonder how the Euro Tiger compares with the Apache - it seems to me the Tiger just copied the Apache and really, not for the better?

And I'm guessing that there is no longer a flying example of the F-35B and that the one in the above pic was just a mock up? Not a big fan of the canopy nor many of the aesthetics on the plane, but they promise the world on it!
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Paris Air Show: Military Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:14 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):
Not a big fan of the canopy nor many of the aesthetics on the plane, but they promise the world on it!

Just like they did with the F-111. Pardon my skepticism.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
columba
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RE: Paris Air Show: Military Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:24 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):
I often wonder how the Euro Tiger compares with the Apache - it seems to me the Tiger just copied the Apache and really, not for the better?

If you would have seen a flight display of the Tiger you wouldn´t say that.
The Tiger is not as armored as the Apache is, he is also smaller and therefore much more agile then the Apache is.
Since flying displays in Germany are usually very boring because the strict laws after the Ramstein tragedy in 1988 the flying display of the Tiger is an exception.
The Tiger is flying loops and manouvers you would think that are impossible to do....really breath taking !!!
Try to find a video of the flying display of the Tiger !!!
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
AirRyan
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RE: Paris Air Show: Military Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:52 am

I think I've also heard that the Tiger has longer range, but that AH-64D's have offset a lot of that extra range with a third interal fuel tank.

While I cannot say I have seen a Tiger flight demonstration, I've seen videos of what the now deceased RAH-66 Commanche could do, and suffice to say I have no doubt that the Tiger is a nimble platform.

BUT...

If I'm flying an "Attack" helicopter I'll sacrifice a little agility for more armor. I say a little because lets face it, the Apache is no "fat chick in a polka dance" herself, and if I really wanted that kind of top-line agility, I'll take a smaller more nimble helo like an old MD-500 or something.

I've never seen a good comparison between a current Tiger, Delta Apache, and while I'm at it a new Zulu Cobra. I'd love to see an unbiased account comparing the three.

Does the Mi-28 and/or Ka-52 even compare to these Western designs? I can't recall the last time anyone ever bought any of these outside of Russia?

China has a WZ-10 on the horizon, but it's certainly not on the market right now nor is it even a certainty that it will work anywhere near as well as its Western counterparts.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
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RE: Paris Air Show: Military Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:56 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 4):
The Tiger is flying loops and manouvers you would think that are impossible to do....really breath taking !!!
Try to find a video of the flying display of the Tiger !!!

I was speaking to an Apache pilot at the show and he said that the Tiger demo was pretty cool, but that the Apache has the ability to do all those maneuvers.....just not the permission of the DOD for demos. All that armor comes in handy when bad guys are shooting at you.

Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 3):
Just like they did with the F-111. Pardon my skepticism.

I understand the skepticism, but I have seen the vids of the thing working...and it is pretty incredible. They still have some weight issues, but it will be the next F-16/18 in terms of reliability and versatility.

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 1):
By any chance, did you see the Omega Tanker out there? Apparently it towed a Hornet over there for the show, so I heard.

No, but ask Aerobalance if he did. He worked on the KC767 and might have seen them before I got there.

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 1):
Next time, tell that dude to get out of the way of that helo

Aerobalance tried to get that big slob to move but he insisted on being in the shot....what a tourist!  Wink
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AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Paris Air Show: Military Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:05 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 6):
I understand the skepticism, but I have seen the vids of the thing working...and it is pretty incredible. They still have some weight issues, but it will be the next F-16/18 in terms of reliability and versatility.

I don't like all the moving parts on the F-35B, that's what gets helicopters in trouble and high maintenance times. A driveshaft in a fighter jet, ahh no thank you!

Also, note the latest defense budget out just last week has some funds withdrawn from the JSF program.

Quote:

A $408 billion bill approved late Monday authorizes $4.9 billion for continued development of the joint strike fighter but withholds $152 million for the first handful of production aircraft.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/11955229.htm
 
dl021
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RE: Paris Air Show: Military Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:33 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 7):
Also, note the latest defense budget out just last week has some funds withdrawn from the JSF program

You are correct, but I believe that they will overcome the tech issues to make this thing work.

The budgetary issues are more about moving money to keep the other high priority AF projects (i.e. F/A-22 and C-130J) which have both gotten some serious backing in Congress as well as the Air Force. The Pentagon would not mind losing the F/A-22 for a while, but the C-130J is both needed and too expensive to cancel so even Rumsfeld is back on board.

They will bring the money back with the next budget, and production will probably not be delayed on this thing. Too many nations are counting on it.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Paris Air Show: Military Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:02 pm

EuroTiger is awesome. How does it compare to the Apache - crew protection, armament?

Those Apaches are sneaky and quiet . . .

I will have to make next years show if I'm given enough advance notice . . .
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DeltaGuy
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RE: Paris Air Show: Military Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:11 pm

From what I understood, the big problem with the JSF was also reducing weight, specifically on the STOVL version with the Marine Corps- that engine assembly which allows the Harrier-like takeoffs was extremely overweight..not sure if that's been remedied yet or not.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Paris Air Show: Military Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:00 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
How does it compare to the Apache - crew protection, armament?

It is not as well armored, and with the amount of ground fire the APaches are taking in combat that may be an issue to the people ordering them as far as how they employ the a/c.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
I will have to make next years show if I'm given enough advance notice .

OK...here it is.....THERE IS A SHOW NEXT YEAR IN ENGLAND.

Is that enough?  Wink

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 10):
From what I understood, the big problem with the JSF was also reducing weight, specifically on the STOVL version with the Marine Corps- that engine assembly which allows the Harrier-like takeoffs was extremely overweight..not sure if that's been remedied yet or not.

Extremely is a bit strong a term for what it is. They want to show some improvement over the abilities of the Harrier in terms of VTO and STO. They would like to be able to lift off with a full load and not have to refuel on the way to the target. The guys I spoke with looked...and I talked to a couple of engineers both here and in Paris....rather confident that they were dealing with the weight issues. GP is right...we are asking alot of one airframe, and it is going to take more work. Which is why we have so much money headed towards it.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Paris Air Show: Military Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:08 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
Extremely is a bit strong a term for what it is. They want to show some improvement over the abilities of the Harrier in terms of VTO and STO. They would like to be able to lift off with a full load and not have to refuel on the way to the target. The guys I spoke with looked...and I talked to a couple of engineers both here and in Paris....rather confident that they were dealing with the weight issues. GP is right...we are asking alot of one airframe, and it is going to take more work. Which is why we have so much money headed towards it.

Don't forget the Danica Patrick factor - the Corps could decide to invade the Amazon (or the Ozarks?) and get 100lbs. WM's to fly the F-35B's and save a good 100lbs right there alone!  Smile
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Paris Air Show: Military Aircraft

Sat Jul 02, 2005 6:29 am

The helicopter shown is the Italian A129, not the Franco-German Tiger.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 6):
I was speaking to an Apache pilot at the show and he said that the Tiger demo was pretty cool, but that the Apache has the ability to do all those maneuvers.....just not the permission of the DOD for demos. All that armor comes in handy when bad guys are shooting at you.

Then imagine what the Tiger could do if the crew had the permission to perform such maneuvers. As mentioned by Columba, flight displays are heavily regulated in Germany (if not in Western Europe), and the display of Tigers make no exception.
"Armour comes in handy", true, but it is said that Tigers can absorb quite an amount of damage. In this case, it's not so much the armour but rather how Tigers are constructed.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
EuroTiger is awesome. How does it compare to the Apache - crew protection, armament?



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):
I often wonder how the Euro Tiger compares with the Apache - it seems to me the Tiger just copied the Apache and really, not for the better?

Both are different helis. Apache is more a tank buster, heavily armoured and armed with an even higer price tag. Tiger is more a combat/scout-hybrid. Less weapons and armour, smaller radar signature (don't know about the IR signature), more agile and NBC protection. Both come with dedicated electronics.
I support the right to arm bears
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Paris Air Show: Military Aircraft

Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:42 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 13):
The helicopter shown is the Italian A129, not the Franco-German Tiger.

correct...the caption shows that I spoke with a couple of the pilots, one of whom had some combat time in one. He loves the thing.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 13):
Then imagine what the Tiger could do if the crew had the permission to perform such maneuvers

The pilots at Bourget had the things going all out. They operated all display flights over the runways away from the crowd.
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