ConcordeBoy
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:15 am

So sad... but it's just now being reported (TV) that all Shuttle flights will again be grounded indefinitely once Discovery returns!  Sad  Sad

Atlantis' September launch as been scratched.


.......more details as they arise. Looking for a link now.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ConcordeBoy
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:16 am

TV report was MSN.

Fox just provided the first link:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,163884,00.html
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
KC135R
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:18 am

It's too bad, I was all pumped up yesterday at work watching the launch.

I think it is time to expedite the shuttle replacement into service.
 
dragon-wings
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:19 am

I just started a thread about this about 30 minutes ago, but for some reason it was deleted.  confused 

Now back to the thread.......NASA said the reason is because they saw pieces of foam coming off the external fuel tank durning launch when the watched viedo tape of yesterdays launch.
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
ANCFlyer
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:21 am

It amazes me that the Billions of US dollarsign  spent and they can't get foam to stick to a rocket . . . I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, in fact I am a great supporter of the Space Program.

It's amazing to me they can't get it right!

How many years (if any) does the shuttle fleet have left? What will replace it? When will that happen?

I also find it amazing the level of technology in the shuttle - comparatively speaking (say to Apollo) and still, thy can't get it right? NASA has egg on their face again . . . . rather still I believe.

Some thing has to give. We should have already explored Mars - with a manned mission - but we're too busy rebuilding 30 year old technology that never worked as advertised . . .

Remember, the space plane, one launch a month, up and back just like a plane . . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
ConcordeBoy
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:25 am

yup, as well as two cracked tiles.

Very sad.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
mdsh00
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:28 am

This is sad. The same space program that got a man on the moon in a decade can't even launch their shuttles correctly. NASA, IMO, needs a thorough overhaul.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
AsstChiefMark
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:31 am

The STS-114 thread is too long there already
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
stlgph
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:31 am

the foam material is the only material they have been able to find that can be used to construct an adequate fuel tank. the material must be able to...

1. withstand the forces and the speed of going up into space
2. disintegrate on re-entry after separation from the shuttle vehicle
3. be light enough

my guess is anybody who can come up with a new material...tax break for life.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
EMBQA
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:32 am

It amazes me that the Billions of US $$ spent and they can't get foam to stick to a rocket

Because all the 'egg-heads' what to do is find some new cutting edge, super new design. If you've read 'Yeager' he talks about an early pitch control issue they had with the X-1. Instead of getting the slide rules and college educated pin heads involved, the jacked it up, built a 2x4 trellis underneath it and worked the balance point that way. It took them one day to find the answer, not months and months and thousands of dollars (thousands then, millions now) My point, look at it in simple terms.......
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Newark777
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:33 am

the foam material is the only material they have been able to find that can be used to construct an adequate fuel tank. the material must be able to...

The tank isn't made of the foam "stuff," it is merely sprayed on at the end.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
KiwiNanday
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:36 am

If the foam is insulation couldn't they layer it?

Inner Metal Shell
Foam Layer
More Foam
Outer Metal Shell
Silly Islamic extremists, it's just a cartoon!
 
AsstChiefMark
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:37 am

I was just talking to my neighbors in a front yard meet. They both said they lost a lot of respect for NASA after hearing the news.

In the deleted thread, I said that NASA is essentially using duct tape and wire to hold these pieces of shit together. And what gets me is they don't have a f*cking clue of what to replace them with. The rocket scientists are not very smart people after all. It's actually embarrassing.

I'm going to print bumper stickers: Scuttle the Shuttle

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
Newark777
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:38 am

If the foam is insulation couldn't they layer it?

Inner Metal Shell
Foam Layer
More Foam
Outer Metal Shell


That sounds good, but it would probably weigh too much. It would involve two metal layers, where now there is just one metal layer, plus the light spray on foam insulation.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
KiwiNanday
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:38 am

Well, lets hope they still get home safely. After all, isn't that what matters?
Silly Islamic extremists, it's just a cartoon!
 
theCoz
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:39 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 9):
This belongs in military/space...

No, this deals with the politics of it, not necessarily the aviation aspect of things. I say keep it...





When it comes to the 20 year old technology they use, it's because older is more reliable. We don't need speed per se; we need reliability first.

These brilliant minds should be given more funding. Imagine how they could contribute so much more to the world with more funding.
 
KiwiNanday
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:41 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 17):
That sounds good, but it would probably weigh too much. It would involve two metal layers, where now there is just one metal layer, plus the light spray on foam insulation.

I know it'll be expensive, but what if you replaced the outer layer of metal with some composite, like carbon fiber, or honeycomb?
Silly Islamic extremists, it's just a cartoon!
 
stlgph
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:41 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 13):
The tank isn't made of the foam "stuff," it is merely sprayed on at the end.

sorry, should have elaborated.

adequately construct the fuel tank's protective shell.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
theCoz
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:45 am

Quoting KiwiNanday (Reply 18):
Well, lets hope they still get home safely. After all, isn't that what matters?

They brought 5 extra rolls of duct tape this time, so I think they'll be fine.  Silly

They're spending a lot of time during this mission trying to figure out what exactly went wrong. Keep in mind there are a billion different questions that were brought up by the space shuttle break-up. They can't confirm any hypothesis until they can adequately test it.
 
EMBQA
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:46 am

It would involve two metal layers, where now there is just one metal layer, plus the light spray on foam insulation.


Then spray the foam on the inside as a boundery layer.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
S12PPL
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:52 am

Quoting KiwiNanday (Reply 15):
If the foam is insulation couldn't they layer it?

I would guess if it was that easy...it would have been done all ready...
Next Flights: 12/31 AS804 PDX-MCO 2/3 AS19 MCO-SEA QX2545 SEA-PDX
 
avek00
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:58 am

Maybe the soon-to-be-eliminated NWA mechs can take a look at it - they're used to fixing antiques...
Live life to the fullest.
 
AsstChiefMark
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:00 am

Who in their right mind would think this crap would stick to a metal tube traveling at several hundred miles per hour? True rocket science.





[Edited 2005-07-28 03:18:05]
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
theCoz
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:00 am

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 24):
If the foam is insulation couldn't they layer it?

I would guess if it was that easy...it would have been done all ready...

Doesn't it actually cost something like $14,500 per lb to put it into orbit? I forget what the price is, but I remember it's ridiculously expensive.

While operating on a shoestring budget, that probably isn't very feasible.
 
SATL382G
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:15 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Thread starter):
So sad... but it's just now being reported (TV) that all Shuttle flights will again be grounded indefinitely once Discovery returns!

Atlantis' September launch as been scratched.

A lot of uninformed speculation in this thread....

No one at NASA said the shuttle was grounded....

No one has said the September launch has been scratched...

What they said was (I saw the press conference) they aren't ready to fly. Which would have been true regardless.....
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
MaverickM11
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:27 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
It amazes me that the Billions of US spent and they can't get foam to stick to a rocket . . . I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, in fact I am a great supporter of the Space Program.

I'm not...billions of dollars and NASA makes Korean Air look like QANTAS  Yeah sure

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Thread starter):
Shuttle flights will again be grounded indefinitely once Discovery returns!

Kinda ominous for said Discovery shuttle that's still up there....
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Springbok747
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:46 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 16):
I'm going to print bumper stickers: Scuttle the Shuttle

Hehe..can you send some down here?

Seriously, NASA needs a new space craft. The shuttle is too old and full of problems. But..I don't get it...before the Columbia disaster, shuttle flights had become routine, and it looked like NASA had no problems with it....what happened in the last 2 years?
אני תומך בישראל
 
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EA CO AS
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:51 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 30):
My full reaction HERE: Shuttle Fleet Grounded (by TedTAce Jul 28 2005 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

Ah, so you have a separate thread, eh? That's nice.  Smile


...so anyway, back to the shuttle.  Wink


I honestly don't see this setback as being a major one. Not yet, anyway. Obviously the folks at Lockheed Martin will need to go back and look at the ET insulation, but I'm wondering how much needs to be done. From what I've seen so far, it appears the insulation came from the line from the intertank assembly, and not the skin of the tank itself. Since this isn't fused directly to the ET, the vibrations associated with liftoff could easily set some insulation loose.

I'm wondering if perhaps it's as easy a fix as not insulating the lines themselves?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
KiwiNanday
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All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:51 am

They lost even more funding. Stupid american public won't pay for anything...
Silly Islamic extremists, it's just a cartoon!
 
futureuapilot
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:38 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 12):
I said that NASA is essentially using duct tape and wire to hold these pieces of shit together. And what gets me is they don't have a f*cking clue of what to replace them with. The rocket scientists are not very smart people after all.

ARE YOU SERIOUS??? These men and women have made a vehicle that will travel to the extreme enviormental limits of this universe! Personally, I have alot of respect for them. It takes years of designing and testing to get these matchines to work properly, and with that many systems and computers, there is alot that can go wrong! You try building such a complex vehicle and launch it into space and see how well you do. These are very intellegent people, some of the most brilliant engineers in the nation, if not the world. You show me one piece of duct tape and wire that is used to hold it together... That's not how it works.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 12):
They both said they lost a lot of respect for NASA after hearing the news.

I gained respect for these people. They are dedicated to safety and are developing new ways too improve the safety of the space program. But hey, that's just me.

-Sam
The Pilot is the highest form of life on Earth!
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:03 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 22):
Who in their right mind would think this crap would stick to a metal tube traveling at several hundred miles per hour? True rocket science.

Have you ever tried to get this stuff off of anything after it's cured?

Did NASA go back to CFC foam or are they still using the special PC foam?
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
texdravid
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:24 pm

First, bring the shuttle back to earth safely. That is the most important thing.

Second, just ground the shuttle permanently. Retire the fleet, what's left of it, anyway for good. I don't want any more lives wasted to this 1970's relic that has NEVER lived up to its potential. The shuttle program has been a bust. Its one selling point, sending up satellites, is overstated.

Furthermore, I don't want any more money wasted on fixing a flawed design.

Start over from scratch with an entirely new vehicle using modern technology.
You lose any more astronauts, and that's it, NASA. The American people have had it.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
NightFlier
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:45 pm

Texdravid I agree 100%. The Shuttle is getting old and it is time for something new. I love the shuttle and the space program, matter of fact the first space shuttle launch took place on the same day that I was born. So I have grown up only knowing the shuttle and it will be sad to see it go. But too major accidents is enough for me, I think its time for a change, This one is for you Space Shuttle champagne 

Regards (NightFlier)
Airplanes are only as good as the people who fly&fix them.
 
sonic67
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:08 pm

Call me stupid but didn't they used to paint the foam 10 years ago or so? Wouldn't painting the foam help adhere and keep it from getting saturated with ice?

 Confused
 
Stealthz
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:28 pm

Sonic67....

A good point, they ditched the paint to save weight, maybe a few hundred pounds of paint could have saved the program.

What is killing the program now is the safety imperitive. Don't get me wrong you should spare no expense doing what can be done to save a life or prevent an injury but flying into space on top of a big rocket is an inherently dangerous business. You cannot make it safer than the bus ride to the pad, that I fear is what NASA is trying to do. (or is being forced to do by a panicky public)

Maybe when China launches it's next manned vehicle will there be a realisation that the USA may finally lose the "Space Race"

Regards

Chris
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
SATL382G
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:28 pm

This morning CNN is quoting Parsons as saying shuttle is "grounded". I didn't hear him say that but....

If he did say that I think it's premature. The pix that confirm all of this were downloaded to the ground at about 2pm yesterday afternoon, the press conference was at 630pm -- barely enough time to process the pix and have Mission Management Team meeting let alone do any analysis.

I'm all for NASA being upfront with the press but this was over the top...
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:23 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 34):
Maybe when China launches it's next manned vehicle will there be a realisation that the USA may finally lose the "Space Race"

I wasn't aware there were winners and losers - besides the "Space Race" never ends. Mankind will ALWAYS be expanding the exploration of space.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:23 am

Quoting Sonic67 (Reply 33):
Call me stupid but didn't they used to paint the foam 10 years ago or so?

The last time the external tanks were painted was STS-2 in 1981. After that it was determined that not painting the external tank would save roughly 1,000 pounds of weight that could be used for other applications (like payload) and the external tanks have remained unpainted since then.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
GDB
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:03 am

The thing is, probably every Shuttle flight has had foam shedding, but luck ran out with Columbia.

From my limited knowledge, I'd say cover the area where this latest foam had been shed, as it seems a persistent problem in that particular part of the tank, and live with the payload restriction the extra weight may bring, the ultimate payload restriction is not to be able to fly at all.

The new NASA Administrator has said before now that he wants the CEV in service ASAP, like well before the official 2014 date.
Clearly this has to be the way, and make it a conventional rocket/capsule config, you know, where any debris from any stage separation will be behind the rest of the vehicle from the start if it comes off.
But, as ever, money is the problem.
After all, budget restrictions led to the current Shuttle config.

But at the end of the day, this is a risky business undertaken by volunteers, I think the public and media have too high expectations in this area.

The US public need to send a signal to Washington, whether they want a properly funded, outward looking manned programme, or to end manned flights, what you have now and have had for 30+ years is something in the middle, which has pleased no one, not the public, not Washington and not the Science community.
 
TedTAce
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:35 am

Stupid question alert: Any reason we can't replace the foam with heaters?
This space intentionally left blank
 
SATL382G
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:47 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 39):
Any reason we can't replace the foam with heaters?

To what end? A cryogen like liquid hydrogen (-422F) needs insulation to keep the hydrogen from excessive boiloff and protect against liquifying air that contacts the tank. A heater would simply serve to warm up the hydrogen, an undesirable result.

I know you don't buy this but air contacting a liquid hydrogen tank at -422F is a bad thing. The H2O and O2 will condense out, probably the N as well. The H2O will freeze solid. O2 freezes at -368F but the exterior of the tank may not get this cold. Liquid O2 (LOX) is not to be messed with, it can react badly with hydrocarbons (skin oil, asphalt, machining oils, etc) not quite hypergolic but close.... Do a google on "ulmer leather gaskets" to see what can happen when LOX comes in contact with a hydrocarbon.

The ET must be insulated.
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:38 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 22):
Who in their right mind would think this crap would stick to a metal tube traveling at several hundred miles per hour? True rocket science.

Who in their right mind would think that the crap you make beer and soda cans out of that crushes so easily would be fashioned into a metal tube travelling at several hundred miles per hour with people inside of it? True aerospace engineering.  scratchchin 
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
atmx2000
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:55 am

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 30):
Did NASA go back to CFC foam or are they still using the special PC foam?

I think they are still using the PC foam, which should really stand for "policitally correct" foam. Apparently after the switch in 1997 from the chlorofluorocarbon foam to non-CFC foam, the number of damaged tiles went up almost 10 times. All to avoid the minute amount of CFCs used in the original tank foam.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 34):
What is killing the program now is the safety imperitive.

What is killing the shuttle program is trying to comply with environmental regulations without compromising safety.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:52 am

Can we agree with one thing here, folks:
Discovery had to go up so we could see what problems have been fixed and what we still have to work on. I think that is a fair assumption.

Also, I have a feeling that following Discovery's safe return home, procedeures may be a little different in getting Atlantis up.
NEXT FLIGHT: FLL-ATL-HPN on FL
 
sonic67
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:56 am

I can't believe that after 2 1/2 years of research NASA didn't come up with an actual solution to the foam problem. Sorry for being SO negative but they once where able design an entire rocket in that same time frame. I'm sure the people that work for the agency are brilliant but I think the agency is poorly managed.

Only my opinion….
 raincloud 
 
AirNZ777
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:05 am

Um it seems here that know one knows here when nasa's shuttles will be retied-

It's 2009
and yes im sure -
just a off the bat question here but does anyone here listen to late night talk show with george noory ? coasttocoastam.com
because there's a lotta scary sh** gonna hit the fan b4 this issue over the space shuttle is over.... so that's what they say- Embarrassment  Sad
 
TedTAce
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:19 am

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 40):
The ET must be insulated.

Ok... cover your eyes and PEEK VERY SLOWLY!!

You are about to be witness to why I am NOT a graphics artist!!!


This is what I meant by having the insulation internal:


Why not have the insulation between the tanks and the external skin?
This space intentionally left blank
 
HaveBlue
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:28 am

Quoting AirNZ777 (Reply 45):
Um it seems here that know one knows here when nasa's shuttles will be retied-

It's 2009
and yes im sure -

Nope, retired by 2010. Plenty of links to back that up, this is the first one I found...

Page 4 of this:
http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/ev...nts/st_decision_symposium/Ryen.pdf

[Edited 2005-07-29 04:29:19]
Here Here for Severe Clear!
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:52 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 46):
Why not have the insulation between the tanks and the external skin?

An idea, but seems like an expensive retrofit...the bloody tank was supposed to be the relatively simpler part of the shuttle...so much for that.

I've always wondered if it was possible to insulate the tank with a more jelly-like or silicone like substance...something flexible enough to withstand the severe vibration that the insulation normally takes yet light enough to not be a payload penalty. Again, probably pricey.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: All Shuttle Flights To Be Grounded Again

Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:02 pm

The EPA is worried about a little extra CFC? They're worried about the wrong thing. Ever since I was a kid I thought about the wildlife around KSC.

I wonder how many birds' eggs are cracked or embryos are killed from vibration whenever a shuttle goes up. I wonder how many animals abandon there nests and young whenever a shuttle goes up?

http://www.nbbd.com/godo/minwr/images/launch.jpeg



Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail

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