B744F
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Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:41 am

This was brought to my attention and I was wondering what the military experts think of this. What was the fighter escort response time like pre 9-11, and specifically, on that horrible day? I have always wondered why there were no escorts in time when they are supposed to be ready 24/7 to go up within 2-3 minutes. Can someone knowledgable in this please tell me what happened?

I hope this is the right forum... Thanks
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:30 am

They were available, just at fewer bases. Before Sept 11, IIRC only 7 bases had jets on alert, mainly along the coasts. Now it is something like 20-25. The Vipers out of Ellington Field in Houston launched very quickly, and ended up escorting AF1. Interesting too, since that was GWBs old unit.


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B744F
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:36 am

Thank you for the info, but that does not answer my question  Smile
 
SATL382G
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:35 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 2):
Thank you for the info, but that does not answer my question

Actually he answered your question pretty well. With fighters sitting alert at only a handful of bases it was difficult to provide complete coverage. You have to remember that pre 9-11 the air defense threat was considered to be away from our borders not within them. So there would be time to launch the alert fighters and start getting additional fighters ready. Unfortunately the threat came from within.....
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
AGM114L
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:18 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 2):
Thank you for the info, but that does not answer my question

I don't think anyone who knew such details would be posting them on an open forum.
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citation501sp
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:28 pm

During the Cold War ADC had interceptor squadrons all over the USA, its kinda like SAC bases once you know what to look for at airports the "alert sheds" are everywhere. Back then the fighters where on a hair trigger. I remember several times during open houses at Griffiss AFB the F-106s were scrambed. Once it was part of the F-106 display, siren to wheels up was about 2 minutes. Most of the other times they were either training or an actual scramble.

However getting the aircraft in the air quickly is one thing, being directed to the intercept is a completely different one, and depending on distance and headings can take a considrable amount of time.
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Lt-AWACS
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:41 pm

B744F what exactly do you want to know then?

And of course as noted above, we won't get into in classified discussion here Big grin Up to Sept 11th NORAD had 7 bases with jets on alert. Take SEAD for example. the Southeast Air Defence sector of the US. They had Ellington Field ANGB, in Houston with Vipers on alert. They had vipers from Minnesota rotating on alert at Tyndall AFB in Panama City, and they had Eagles on alert at Homestead. All three launched within the 5 minute window on Sept 11- once the order was given.
Ditto the NEADS Eagles out of Otis ANGB in Mass.

Now post Sept 11 we have over 20 bases with jets on alert. Search ABC20/20 IIRC they did a good show about it, including the chain to NORAD and AWACS.

So to answer your question, the fighters that were on alert Sept 11th did launch within the 5 minute window-once the order got to them-which is a whole other thread/discussion.

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MissedApproach
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:48 pm

Quoting Citation501SP (Reply 5):

Exactly. Prior to Sept 11 alert fighters were geared toward intercepting unidentified aircraft entering sovereign airspace, ie, the occasional Tu-142. Nobody ever thought we would have to intercept civilian airliners within our own airspace.
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Woodreau
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:06 pm

The Sept 11th Commission Report, has a relatively good summary of the military/FAA interaction and response to the initial attacks, and probably will have the information you are looking for. You might still be able to get a copy on Amazon.com. The coordination between the two agencies was less than optimal. Even after the planes crashed into their targets, NORAD still believed the hijacked planes were in the air and were sending fighters on a wild goose chase.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
Duce50Boom
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:52 pm

Just to piggyback on what AWACS and others said, there was no direct link between the FAA and NORAD before september 11th. In a nutshell, NORAD took care of the airspace outside the US, FAA took care of airspace inside the US. So the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing. My memory is sketchy, but IIRC the FAA didn't even notify NORAD of the hijackings until just before the first AC hit the tower. After that they were scrambled. But given that the fighters were near Boston and just getting airborne in DC they weren't close enough, nor did they have the time or positive control, to intercept the other flight into NYC and/or the AA flight to DC. You also have to remember that before sept 11 intercepting aircraft were not allowed to go supersonic over the US. So scratch the speed advantage of a fighter. And again, IIRC, the DC F-16s were not armed or were armed with only 20mm. All in all, we were caught with our pants down in a situation that wasn't looked at by planners as realistic--after all, this was the pre september 11th mindset.

Quoting AGM114L (Reply 4):
Quoting B744F (Reply 2):
Thank you for the info, but that does not answer my question

I don't think anyone who knew such details would be posting them on an open forum

Agreed. "Where are your troops, and may I count them?"
 
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Wed Aug 03, 2005 2:32 pm

Quoting Duce50boom (Reply 9):
My memory is sketchy, but IIRC the FAA didn't even notify NORAD of the hijackings until just before the first AC hit the tower. After that they were scrambled. But given that the fighters were near Boston and just getting airborne in DC they weren't close enough, nor did they have the time or positive control, to intercept the other flight into NYC and/or the AA flight to DC. You also have to remember that before sept 11 intercepting aircraft were not allowed to go supersonic over the US.

This is all correct.

Quoting Duce50boom (Reply 9):
And again, IIRC, the DC F-16s were not armed or were armed with only 20mm.

Most had AIM-7s, which normally are not on US Vipers, but the ADF model could carry 7s-- just in case they had to be "snipped" after "Fox1"

As "Dos gringos" would say, "Fox 1, when you've got nothing left, Fox 2, it's that heater in your chest, Fox3, the only friend you'll ever need". Will anyone get that???

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
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B744F
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Wed Aug 03, 2005 2:51 pm

Quoting Duce50boom (Reply 9):
there was no direct link between the FAA and NORAD before september 11th

I find this extremely hard to believe. NORAD was informed on that morning by the FAA, as was the NMCC.

And why weren't fighters stationed in Andrews called to intercept?

one more thing that I don't understand,

http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAB0001.htm

Payne Stewarts airplane had lost contact, fighters were scrambled and within 20 minutes it was up to FL420 to intercept.

It just doesn't make sense how the reaction to 9-11 was so lacking.

[Edited 2005-08-03 07:54:08]
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Wed Aug 03, 2005 2:58 pm

Quoting B744F (Reply 11):
I find this extremely hard to believe. NORAD was informed on that morning.

And why weren't fighters stationed in Andrews called to intercept?

You might find it hard to believe but it is true. By the time NORAD was got the words on the correct hijacks, it was too late. All of which is publicly available. Since then our (AWACS/NORAD/CONR) procedures have changed and the FAA has a liaison. Several news programs have done shows on the pre/post chain that was in place.

The Andrews fighters were launched, and were sent out over the Atlantic past New Jersey.

Payne Stewart's jet was a different "type" incident, and was on a straight and level path that had continuous radar tracking. We even had an E-3 nearly divert for it, that is how long the time was.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
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B744F
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:11 pm

Why over the Atlantic? And the first WTC was struck before 9, the Pentagon after 9:30, NORAD was notified at 8:40 of a hijacking, why would they not scramble jets to protect important targets and intercept the other airplanes that were found to be hijacked as well? I'm just confused at how blind the response was, and how nobody was fired because of this.
 
B744F
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:13 pm

And according to NORAD, fighters were scrambled at 8:46 to flight 175 but somehow did not get there in time? 9:03 was when the plane hit, how slow did they go? They scrambled planes from Otis, farther away than McGuire as well. Another mistake. How many mistakes were made that day???
 
Woodreau
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:40 pm

You have the benefit of hindsight and Monday morning quarterbacking about all this...

When things are happening in real-time like on Sept 11, you don't have all the information you need to make decisions. You make the best decision you can based on incomplete information and usually conflicting and wrong information. You have to decide what information is valid and what isn't, and you can't wait until you have all the information. That's just the way things are. It's a sucky situation, and you do the best you can. And just because you finally make a decision and order a response, responses to an order don't happen instantaneously. It takes time to respond to an order.

Everything you are asking about is explained in the commission report on pages 14-46.
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dl021
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:45 pm

Guys.....keep in mind that B744F is looking for opportunity to criticize and attempting to accumulate his version of "proof" for whatever conspiracy theories he read about on whichever website he scanned prior to posting here.

Prior to 9-11 the assumption was that aerial threats would come from overseas, not from within. Therefore the interceptor bases were ready, but not necessarily to shoot down airliners.

Payne Stewart's plane (and it's kind of asinine to compare an in-flight emergency on a business jet to a hijacking on an airliner) was not intercepted by an interceptor per-se, with the intention of shooting it down, but by an F-16 that was sent up to catch the thing and see what the problem was. There was so much time that the E-3 that diverted started in the Gulf of Mexico.
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Duce50Boom
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:06 pm

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 10):
Most had AIM-7s, which normally are not on US Vipers, but the ADF model could carry 7s-- just in case they had to be "snipped" after "Fox1"

As "Dos gringos" would say, "Fox 1, when you've got nothing left, Fox 2, it's that heater in your chest, Fox3, the only friend you'll ever need". Will anyone get that???

And if you drive a viper than you gotta drink it fast, cause this ain't a time to loiter and we ain't got the gas!

Great choice AWACS. Old question for you. Payne Stewart's intercept. Were alert birds launched or were F-16s diverted from another mission to intercept? I remember the HUD footage on the news, but can't remember which aircraft got to it, ADF or some dude on a training flight
 
B744F
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:46 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 16):
(and it's kind of asinine to compare an in-flight emergency on a business jet to a hijacking on an airliner)

Umm the controllers had no idea it was an inflight emergency, they simply lost contact as the airplane stopped communications. The ATC followed procedures and informed the military who had fighters jets up to intercept. The amount of guessing and plain incorrectness of most of the answers is quite disturbing.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 16):
Guys.....keep in mind that B744F is looking for opportunity to criticize and attempting to accumulate his version of "proof" for whatever conspiracy theories he read about on whichever website he scanned prior to posting here.

No I've always wondered exactly why what should have been done, never was, but only on that day, other events were handled correctly.
 
Woodreau
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:33 am

Okay, I'll write this on the assumption that you aren't trying to be imflammatory. I think I found the website you were looking at and I'll attempt to clear up some things.

I don't have any inside info about the Air Force or NORAD or anything. I'm just going off my experience as a staff planner and the way things are theoretically supposed to work.

Quoting B744F (Reply 13):
the first WTC was struck before 9, the Pentagon after 9:30, NORAD was notified at 8:40 of a hijacking, why would they not scramble jets to protect important targets and intercept the other airplanes that were found to be hijacked as well?

As stated in posts above, there were only 14 interceptors at 7 bases throughout the entire United States available to NORAD to intercept anything - hijacked aircraft, attack from outside the US. And from what I can gather, NORAD launched everything it had initially - the interceptors from Otis and Langley.

NORAD is an operational command. It is responsible for the air sovereignty of the United States, Canada, and Alaska. It is responsible for planning, scheduling, and employing the resources (interceptors, tankers, AWACs, ships, ground forces, etc) it is given to accomplish its mission. It exercises its responsibility through three subordinate units: Alaska NORAD Region (ANR), Canadian NORAD Region (CANR), and Continental US NORAD Region (CONR). Inside the Untied States, CONR has three subordinate units, Western Air Defense Sector (WADS), Northeast ADS (NEADS), and Southeast ADS (SEADS). These Air Defense Sectors are the people that "scramble" the interceptors. Washington and New York are covered by NEADS.

Since NORAD is an operational command, it can only employ the resources it has. It just can't arbitrarily call up an airbase and say launch your fighters. It doesn't own any interceptors or airbases. The interceptors and airbases belong to the Air National Guard and Air Combat Command.

Based on the expected threat, NORAD is given assets from the ANG and ACC (and other force providers as well, like the Army FORSCOM for the Stinger batteries that are in the DC area)

On Sept 11, with the expected threat known at the time, NORAD believed for the CONR region, that 14 interceptors were all that were needed. And that's all it had.

NORAD can always ask for more and additional forces will be assigned to NORAD when the situation warrants.

After the hijackings and crashes - NORAD probably asked for everything from everybody, and it got everything it asked for that day - from the Navy it got a flotilla of AEGIS cruisers and destroyers, from the Air Force and ANG, it got more interceptors, more tankers, and AWACS support.

When a interceptor unit is not tasked to provide a ground alert for NORAD, it's doing routine business - training missions, maintenance, etc. It just can't provide fighters to fly CAPs right away. It takes time to bring live ordinance from the bunkers and arm the fighters, to find (in the case of ANG units) and brief the pilots, etc.

An example, I'll assume you're a college student. Every day you go to class, you have a schedule - classes in the morning and in the afternoon. Then you get a call on your cell phone in one of your morning classes, your best friend dropped in unannounced and is at the airport, and wants you to go pick him up now, pronto, stat. Well you still have more classes that day, and you have an exam in the next class. You can't get to the airport until lunch. You'll try to pick him up as soon as possible. If your friend told you about dropping in the day before, you could have made arrangements to pick him up when he arrived at the airport.

Same thing for NORAD. The units that were activated to provide additional interceptors and support after the hijackings and crashes did provide the requested units as quickly as possible, even though they weren't on tether to provide forces that day.

So by the time the events were over, NORAD had overwhelming military assets available to combat the next hijacking, once it became aware of the nature of the new unexpected threat. But to expect everything within the first two hours of the initial crash into the WTC is unrealistic.

Quoting B744F (Reply 14):
And according to NORAD, fighters were scrambled at 8:46 to flight 175 but somehow did not get there in time? 9:03 was when the plane hit, how slow did they go?

The website I found that I think you are looking at mentioned that the fighters were only flying at 24-25% of their max speed and if they were flying at max speed, the interceptors could have prevented the second WTC crash, and the Pentagon crash.

This assumes many things that is clear now, but wasn't clear on Sept 11. (You have to love that "fog of war." It will get you every time.)

Flying at max speed is a nice capability, but that 2 hour loiter capability dwindles very quickly to zero the faster an interceptor flies. So an F-15 which has a ferry range of over 2-3,000 miles and a combat radius of 500-600 miles (I'm guessing these numbers), probably has a combat on-station time of less than 15 minutes if it's flying on afterburner at max speed. Now you've got a fighter that might be in position to intercept, but no fuel to find, locate, and maneuver into position to identify and intercept the hijacked aircraft.

That's the problem I have with the assertions of the website I found.

When you own interceptors and set them in CAP stations, your primary worry about interceptors nagging you in the back of your mind after you're done worrying about the radar picture, and tactical situation on your display, is how much fuel do they have left? At least that's what my worry was when I had fighters from the aircraft carrier available to me. I'd always bug my AIC to bug the fighters, "Say [fuel] state."

Anyways, I apologize for the long post. I hope this answers some of your questions.
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B744F
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:02 am

I wasn't looking at any website, so not sure what you were talking about. And no fighters were scrambled from Langley. I am also not a college student.

But thank you for the information, I guess the only way to know for sure was to be there that day, I just don't understand how nobody was punished for the mistakes made.
 
SATL382G
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:46 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 20):
I just don't understand how nobody was punished for the mistakes made.

Would be helpful to know where you're getting your information and why you believe mistakes were made. My information is substantially different from yours is why I ask.....

For example: the following info is from page 32 of the 9/11 commission report

08:38 Boston Center notifies NEADS of hijacking
08:46 NEADS scrambles Otis fighters in search of AA11
(you say in reply 14 that these fighters are looking for UA175)
08:46:40 AA11 crashes into the North Tower
08:53 Otis fighter jets airborne
09:03:11 UA175 crashes into the South Tower
09:21 Boston Center advises NEADS that AA11 is heading for Washington
09:24 NEADS scrambles Langley fighter jets in search of AA11

I'm stopping at 09:24 because I'm making the assumption that there were no additional fighters on alert available to scramble after that time.

Now, why do you believe mistakes were made?
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:36 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 18):
Umm the controllers had no idea it was an inflight emergency, they simply lost contact as the airplane stopped communications. The ATC followed procedures and informed the military who had fighters jets up to intercept. The amount of guessing and plain incorrectness of most of the answers is quite disturbing.

Nothing I have said is incorrect. I was there on Sept 11th, Flying over the East Coast, and got an Air Medal for it-so that part is no longer a secret.

Quoting B744F (Reply 18):
No I've always wondered exactly why what should have been done, never was, but only on that day, other events were handled correctly.

actually as noted above, procedures were followed, and take-off response time was basically as fragged- your original question I thought.

Quoting B744F (Reply 13):
Why over the Atlantic? And the first WTC was struck before 9, the Pentagon after 9:30, NORAD was notified at 8:40 of a hijacking, why would they not scramble jets to protect important targets and intercept the other airplanes that were found to be hijacked as well? I'm just confused at how blind the response was, and how nobody was fired because of this.

Just because a plane said "hijack" did not mean it would be intercepted-under the old rules. The FAA did not active rules under 7610.4 until after the first tower was hit. Why would jets "autmoatically" have been scrambled from multiple bases to attack targets we did not yet know were under attack. After it was apparent what was happening, targets were protected. The response was not blind, just geared toward another type of expected attack. Who would you fire, basically people followed procedures, other than the FAA not having the correct comm with NORAD up front. As for the jets going out to the Atlantic, those vipers were given a launch order, but not told of targets. Under the old rules they would expect a launch for Russian bombers over the Atlantic. THat is where they headed, as that is what they were trained to do.

Quoting B744F (Reply 14):
And according to NORAD, fighters were scrambled at 8:46 to flight 175 but somehow did not get there in time? 9:03 was when the plane hit, how slow did they go? They scrambled planes from Otis, farther away than McGuire as well. Another mistake. How many mistakes were made that day???

Fighters were scrambled, but not directed at 11 until later, and even then 17 minutes would most likely not have been enough time, even for a BVR-beyond visual range shot, which would most likely not happen. Think about 8 miles a minute.

As I said above, only 7 bases had planes on alert. Otis was it for NYC. Very few mistakes were made that day. The process was broken, not really the execution.

Duce, IIRC the Stewart jets were gaurd, but I don't remember from where. I think the F-15s at St Louis, took over for ADF Vipers from down at Tyndall IIRC. I would have to go back and research some logs for actual model numbers.


Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:44 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 16):
Guys.....keep in mind that B744F is looking for opportunity to criticize and attempting to accumulate his version of "proof" for whatever conspiracy theories he read about on whichever website he scanned prior to posting here.

 yes 

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 21):
Would be helpful to know where you're getting your information

LewRockwell.com perhaps . . . ConspiracyTheorists101.org . . . HistoryRevisionRUs.net . . .

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 21):
why do you believe mistakes were made

Please refer to DL021s comments in reply #16.
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dl021
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:45 am

Because it suits his desire to call into question and cast aspersions at every military decision made in the history of mankind. It's a pattern that he evidently has decided to bring here.

He gets most of his information from googling and scanning, not reading in depth, websites and news articles. He draws his conclusions from the mothership which is currently trying to hide from the Discovery.

B744, The atmosphere and threatcon prior to 9-11 was rather different, and had nothing happened and we sent up a fighter to meet every aircraft then you would be complaining about harrassment. If we kept hundreds of interceptors on alert, as in the bad old days, you'd be looking to complain about the money that could be going to build schools or peace gardens.

Let us know when you get to the point that you are trying to make, since everyone has taken the time to provide you with valid and accurate information.
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Duce50Boom
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:00 am

No worries AWACS, it's not important. Just wondering about it. Thank you though
 
halls120
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:34 am

Quote:
B744F: But thank you for the information, I guess the only way to know for sure was to be there that day, I just don't understand how nobody was punished for the mistakes made.

As several of the posters have noted - in exhausting detail - NORAD made no mistakes that required any punishment be meted out.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:13 pm

Quoting B744F (Reply 14):
They scrambled planes from Otis, farther away than McGuire as well. Another mistake.

Are you saying that the AF could have saved the day by scrambling C-141 or KC-10?

Please go back to watching your regularly scheduled programming on Current.
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B744F
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:00 pm

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 22):
Nothing I have said is incorrect. I was there on Sept 11th, Flying over the East Coast, and got an Air Medal for it-so that part is no longer a secret.

The problem is, all your comments, and everyone elses, have gone against everything the offical spokespeople and high up command has said. First people claim NORAD and the FAA do not have the ability to talk to each other, then no fighters were scrambled at all, then it was they were scrambled but happened to go to the Atlantic? Nice bit of information, I suggest you all go read up on the "real history" because revisionist is exactly what's coming from you all.
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:52 pm

No one above said that. Please show me where that is written. No one claimed that FAA and NORAD can't talk now, but the system on 9/11 was different, and a poor one, as the commision notes. No one said fighters were not scrambled, but they were not scrambled in time to deal with the final jets. It is a fact that two vipers went out over the atlantic-it was even on 60 minutes and 20/20-the pilots were interviewed. This was explained in simple terms to you. I am sorry you do not wish to understand that. I was there, flying the initial command and control, I am well aware of the "real" history of it all. You simply seem to ignore what was posted above, even after your time question was answered.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
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AFHokie
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:22 pm

One question to B744F:

Have you read the 9/11 commission?
 
SATL382G
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:22 pm

Quoting B744F (Reply 29):
The problem is, all your comments, and everyone elses, have gone against everything the offical spokespeople and high up command has said. First people claim NORAD and the FAA do not have the ability to talk to each other, then no fighters were scrambled at all, then it was they were scrambled but happened to go to the Atlantic? Nice bit of information, I suggest you all go read up on the "real history" because revisionist is exactly what's coming from you all.

This troll thinks he's in Non-Av... The first line above is flat out wrong and completely unsupported..
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
B744F
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:37 am

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 30):
No one above said that. Please show me where that is written.

Here you go:

Quoting Duce50boom (Reply 9):
Just to piggyback on what AWACS and others said, there was no direct link between the FAA and NORAD before september 11th.



Quoting Woodreau (Reply 8):
Even after the planes crashed into their targets, NORAD still believed the hijacked planes were in the air and were sending fighters on a wild goose chase.

Thats ridiculous, they have the most advanced radar tracing system in the world, yet they were sending them on a wild goose chase?

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 30):
No one said fighters were not scrambled, but they were not scrambled in time to deal with the final jets

And that right there is the issue. You'd think to get them airborne after the first tower was hit? How about the 2nd? No, they scramble a few jets over 30 mins after losing contact with 3 aircraft who turn around and head back for major city centers.

Also, why wouldn't you send up fighters after the first attack to protect your nations capital?

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 32):
This troll thinks he's in Non-Av... The first line above is flat out wrong and completely unsupported..

No, it is most of you who have given flat out wrong and completely unsupported statements. And anyone who disagrees with your perspective is a troll as well?
 
SATL382G
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:45 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 34):
No, it is most of you who have given flat out wrong and completely unsupported statements.

Dude, what fact have you offered here that you have also offered some support for? NONE....

Quoting B744F (Reply 34):
And anyone who disagrees with your perspective is a troll as well?

Troll: Someone who is trolling for an argument. You are certainly stirring the pot towards that end. I don't care if you agree with my perspective, I would appreciate you offering some support for your own perspective though.

Anyone can make up facts, only those who know the truth can support those facts. Please backup your assertions
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
B744F
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:13 am

I am not stiring any pot, I am responding to insults thrown at me for asking simple questions but not finding adequate responses.
 
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STT757
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:05 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 14):
And according to NORAD, fighters were scrambled at 8:46 to flight 175 but somehow did not get there in time? 9:03 was when the plane hit, how slow did they go? They scrambled planes from Otis, farther away than McGuire as well. Another mistake. How many mistakes were made that day???

McGuire AFB hosts KC-135s, C-32s, KC-10s etc.. No fighters.

The closest Inceptors to NYC are the NJ-ANG 177th FW F-16s based out of Atlantic City NJ, they were not on alert on 9-11-01 however from what I've read they had armed aircraft scrambled within an hour of the first crash.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:28 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 34):
Thats ridiculous, they have the most advanced radar tracing system in the world, yet they were sending them on a wild goose chase?

The FAA and NORAD are two different agencies, you act as if they are one. Not true. There was no direct link as Duce noted, the FAA had to request NORAD help for various hijack codes. Today those rules have changed.

Quoting B744F (Reply 34):
And that right there is the issue. You'd think to get them airborne after the first tower was hit? How about the 2nd? No, they scramble a few jets over 30 mins after losing contact with 3 aircraft who turn around and head back for major city centers.

There were only a few jets to scramble. After the cold way the number of alert bases were cut down to 7. Kid are you that dense you cannot understand "7" for the whole country? They were scrambled after the then correct procedures were followed, and it was not 30 minutes, it was 17. Turning toward a city is not a hostile act in itself. For all the FAA knew they could have wanted to land. Remember, the rules for hijacking before 9-11 were different than now. We used to "meet" demands and not challenge hijackers.

Quoting B744F (Reply 34):
Also, why wouldn't you send up fighters after the first attack to protect your nations capital?

Fighters were over DC when it was apparent an attack was going on, and the order to shot down any planes over DC was given, but never had to be carried out due to the pax actions over PA. After the first tower was hit, most people still didn't know what was going on. News still thought it could have been a little cessna that hit the first tower. It was not until watching the second tower get hit that most people realised what was going on- At which point the military chain was brought into play.

Quoting B744F (Reply 34):

No, it is most of you who have given flat out wrong and completely unsupported statements. And anyone who disagrees with your perspective is a troll as well?

Actually I answered all of your questions and you have chosen to ignore them. Myself and others have shown the 9-11 report and first hand accounts. You have provided nothing but vague conjecture, and changed your questions/statements after a counter point and fact has been posted. Just because you don't want to believe something doesn't mean it is not true.
You cannot disagree with the facts that happened that day, in regard to the chain of command then in place with the FAA vis-a-vis NORAD and the National Command Authority-you like to call it perspective, but it is documented FACT. Sorry that disagrees with your apparent agenda.

Quoting B744F (Reply 36):
I am not stirring any pot, I am responding to insults thrown at me for asking simple questions but not finding adequate responses.

I never insulted you and answered every point you asked, many which you chose to ignore, or try and twist into a vague tangential argument.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, Seven continents down, none to go
Io voglio fica ogni giorni da mia bella moglie!
 
TedTAce
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:59 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 36):
but not finding adequate responses.

You are being insutled because for normal people, the EXCELLENT information provided by my fellow members exceeds any nominal standard response for the question you posted. That is why we are accusing you of  stirthepot  because despite great answers you keep saying they are insufficient. Next time ask better questions and STOP WASTING OUR TIME!!
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Woodreau
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:23 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 34):
Thats ridiculous, they have the most advanced radar tracing system in the world, yet they were sending them on a wild goose chase?

If you only knew the limitations of radar. Radar is not the magic see everything know everything gadget.

I've never been inside NORAD's command center or any of the Air Defense Sector's command centers, but I'd be willing to bet that they don't have any actual raw radar feeds in the command centers. They're probably looking at a composite track database either a non-real time GCCS display (Common Operational Picture) or a near real-time JTIDS display. Both systems ultimately get their track information from both primary and secondar radar from many sources - FAA radar, military radar, AWACS, J-Stars, shipboard radars, intel, etc. but you know garbage in = garbage out.

You spend most of your time trying to keep garbage from getting in so that you can build what we call (in the Navy at least) a "Recognized Air Picture" so that we can make the best decisions that we can given the circumstances.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
B744F
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:35 am

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 38):
Remember, the rules for hijacking before 9-11 were different than now.

Nonsense, anytime an airplane turns off its transponder, goes off course, and refuses to listen to instructions by the ATC, fighters should, and always have been, called to intercept.

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 38):
but never had to be carried out due to the pax actions over PA.

Sorry but that airplane was shot down.
 
Duce50Boom
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:11 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 41):
Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 38):
but never had to be carried out due to the pax actions over PA.

Sorry but that airplane was shot down.

And in an instant B744F has gone from a curious-as-to-how-the-military-could-screw-the-pooch skeptic to jumping off a cliff with no parachute......
 
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STT757
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:29 am

Quoting B744F (Reply 41):
Sorry but that airplane was shot down.

Then why has no one taken credit, the President, Vice President, and everyone on down acknowledges that the order to shoot down was given. Why would they lie to say they didn't, when they said they were trying.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
TedTAce
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:48 am

Quoting Duce50boom (Reply 42):
Quoting B744F (Reply 41):
Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 38):
but never had to be carried out due to the pax actions over PA.

Sorry but that airplane was shot down.

And in an instant B744F has gone from a curious-as-to-how-the-military-could-screw-the-pooch skeptic to jumping off a cliff with no parachute......

IT ALL CLEAR NOW!!! B744f is MD90!!! That's the reason he will NOT cite his source because it's that LEWwhateverser site!!
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VirginFlyer
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RE: Fighter Escort Pre 9-11 And On That Day

Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:09 am

Right, this has clearly gone beyond the scope of the original question, and is descending into *yet another* non-av bickerfest. I think the original question about the reson for the apparently slow response has been well and truly answered.

Please DO NOT try and bring the bickering about US policy, conspiracy theories etc etc into this forum. Leave it for Non-Av, PLEASE!

V/F
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