ERAUMcDlover
Topic Author
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:16 am

Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:15 pm

i spend my summers in VA by Langley....and i'll tell you, there is NOTHING more amazing then sitting at the end of the runway with tears in your eyes as the shear power of a pair of F-15's roars away.

the F-15 is faster then the F-22.
the F-15 is cheaper then the F-22
the F-15 has a perfect record.
USAF pilots destined for the F-22, currently fly the F-15.
F-15 full production is current, and achievable.

why don't we take the engines and the radar from the F-22 and throw them in the F-15...a little more vectoring, next generation missiles, and maybe canards? seems to me that would be a lot cheaper and a hell of a lot more wise. the F-22 is so slow it seems that interception of a bogey is impossible! put those efficient engines in an EAGLE and watch her SOAR, can you imagine the capabilities of the F-15E, with the F-22 engines? the range charts!?!? i'd love my enemy to at least know i'm coming, not see me big time on the screen, but not not know i'm coming like the F-22...theres something to be said when you know eagles are after you, it darkens your day, but if you get bounced by F-22's.....maybe you have just enough adrenaline to outmaneuver and beat us.....
i remember the titanic was the unsinkable ship.....i'd hate for the F-22 to be the unhittable plane.....last thing we need is our pilots too cocky.....eagle cocky....yes....raptor cocky....hell we'll be fossils like the original raptors!

don't abandon the F-15 DOD....PLEASE....save us some money and prepare us more effieciently and easier for the next generation's currently being fielded.
DL, what a classy lady....Mad Dogs...a classy plane.....USA...just the best all around
 
AGM114L
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:12 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:50 pm

For better or worse, I bet the F-22 will be fielded along with the JSF. While it is hard to argue that there currently exists a viable threat to US Air Superiority, it is the USAF's job to keep it that way, and the F-22 is key for this.

Quoting ERAUMcDlover (Thread starter):
F-15 full production is current, and achievable.

True quantity is a quality all of its own, but if a need for the F-22 does arise the USAF will need an established support and production capability.

Quoting ERAUMcDlover (Thread starter):
don't abandon the F-15 DOD....PLEASE....save us some money and prepare us more efficiently and easier for the next generation's currently being fielded.

One could argue we could still be using the F-4. Suggest this to someone who has worked with F-4s and F-15s and I bet you would get a strange look. Often improvements are more that what meets the eye and not always appreciated by those who do not work with them.

Quoting ERAUMcDlover (Thread starter):
i'd love my enemy to at least know i'm coming

I suggest you branch Finance or Quartermaster.
My Boeing can blow up your Boeing
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:36 pm

Surprise is victory in aerial combat.

The F-22 will be able to approach the enemy without warning and launch BVR missiles to take them down before entering visual or dogfight range. If, or when, close in fighting comes in the F/A-22 is far more capable than anything else out there.

As far as a threat to US air superiority...well, there are plenty of air forces out there with at least air parity with us on some scale, and that is unacceptable for our forces. The Mirage 2000, the F-16's (which we sold) and other aircraft out there armed with BVR and high g off boresight missiles have taken some of our edge away.

People that continue to point out the track record of our F-15's don't take into account the 30+ year age of the airplane and the fact that it has reached the pinnacle of it's effectiveness. Our F-15's are not superior to the latest SU fighters in some areas and we owe it to our soldiers and airmen to provide them with the best we can put out there.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11002
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:44 pm

The F-22A/B (I hate the politically correct designation of F/A-22) is a stealt package airplane. It also has a "super cruise" capability. The F-15 cannot do either of these. Don't get me wrong, the F-15 is still the worlds best fighter. But the current generation of the new Russian fighters is rapidly eroding the F-15s superiority. USAF needs a new fighter to regain the gap that is now closing.

Additionally, the F-15 is essentially out of production except for the few F-15E "Mud Hens" and, of course the F-15K program.

We need to continue to develope the F-22A/B as well as enter full production. Then we need to go onto developing the follow on F-22C/D, and possibly a E/F model to correct some of the Raptor's defencies. But, even many of these will be corrected through production block improvements.
 
ERAUMcDlover
Topic Author
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:16 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:52 am

no no no, i mean i know the f-15 needs to be retired, but why not produce a super eagle.....all the new avionics and engines of the f-22, as well as next generation armaments, and put it all in a mildly modified f-15 airframe.....top speed would increase, along with the supercruise, taking it farther, payload increases, along with ease of pilot conversion. the f-22 is very capable, but its taking a long time to work out kinks.....jamming itself, tail surface problems......i mean airframe repairs to an f-15......are pennies on the dollar compared with thousands on the same say....bullet hole on the f-22....the access panels are nice, but will they stay on with high speed, high-G maneuvers....i'm not sure.
DL, what a classy lady....Mad Dogs...a classy plane.....USA...just the best all around
 
desertjets
Posts: 7570
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 3:12 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:53 am

There was an interesting program on the History Channel about the development of the ATF program. Which was proceeded by an equally good show about the development and evolution of the F-14.

Now while the F-15 is a very capable aircraft it will not meet future demands, nor will the development of competing aircraft stop. It is the unforeseen future need that makes an aircraft like the F/A-22 neccessary. The F-15 can only be rebuilt and revamped so much. Now if the DOD and the Air Force and Congress would stop dragging their feet on F-22 procurement, and get them in numbers that would not only make it a viable replacement for the F-15 fleet, but also bring unit costs down.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:30 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
People that continue to point out the track record of our F-15's don't take into account the 30+ year age of the airplane and the fact that it has reached the pinnacle of it's effectiveness. Our F-15's are not superior to the latest SU fighters in some areas and we owe it to our soldiers and airmen to provide them with the best we can put out there.

I agree. The reason the F-15 has a perfect record is because it has not gone up against a truly well trained and effective force of modern fighters. The SU birds are truly awesome in trained hands. So is the Eurofighter and Rafale. We may have to go up against the Eurofighter as well someday - the French especially are known for selling almost anything to almost anybody.

The state of the art in fighters is ahead of the F-15. If we let ourselves fall even further behind by getting rid of the F-22, it will be very hard to catch up again if the need arises. Really good air superiority fighters take forever to develop no matter who is doing it. When China or someone else in that region confronts us with a modern, well trained airforce flying fighters superior to ours it will already be to late.

Our military doctrine requires air supremacy. This does not simply mean we win most dogfights. It means that we quickly and decisively evict nearly all of the enemy from the sky. Without air supremacy we are lost. Our forces are not built to fight without it. Building ground and naval forces capable of winning decisively without air supremacy would be way more expensive than buying the F-22, and might not even be possible at all.
 
Christa
Posts: 1215
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:37 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:39 am

You know? I think that you Americans should perhaps buy the Eurofighter Typhoon. Obviously, you would have to rename it.. but still. It is a fantastic aircraft.

Regards,
Chris
Croeso i Faes Awyr Rhyngwladol Caerdydd - Welcome to Cardiff International Airport
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:09 am

Boeing only makes Strike Eagles now and the closest thing to a current F-15A/B/C/D would be an F-18E and in many respects is a better platform in block II status than current F-15C's are.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:28 am

>> We may have to go up against the Eurofighter as well someday - the French especially are known for selling almost anything to almost anybody.

There has yet to be an export sale of the Rafael, though I believe there is a possibility of the first export sale to Singapore (or Malaysia?) in the near future.

>> the f-22 is very capable, but its taking a long time to work out kinks.....jamming itself, tail surface problems......

It's a little late, we've already spent the billions of dollars necessary to smooth out the production variants. The first squadron will enter service very soon, so the time to debate the merits of continuing the program have long passed.

>> You know? I think that you Americans should perhaps buy the Eurofighter Typhoon. Obviously, you would have to rename it.. but still. It is a fantastic aircraft.

It really does not compare to what has already been fully developed and tested by Lockheed. Like I said, it's a little late to consider alternative options though I could see a modified mix of F-22 and F-35 being considered.
 
eaglekeeper101
Posts: 269
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:14 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:37 am

F-15s drive me insane. They are maintenance piglets that have caused me more sleepless nights in the last 14 years than my ex-wife. They are old, cranky, and lovable. And it's time to let their children (F-22s) get out and have some fun in the air-superiority world.

Quoting ERAUMcDlover (Thread starter):
the F-15 is faster then the F-22

True, but raw speed isn't the beat-all /end-all of aerial combat. the F-22 can out-accellerate an F-15C in its sleep, especially in a normal ACM/BFM speed range - subsonic. The F-22 is much faster when and where it counts.

Quoting ERAUMcDlover (Reply 4):
no no no, i mean i know the f-15 needs to be retired, but why not produce a super eagle.....all the new avionics and engines of the f-22, as well as next generation armaments, and put it all in a mildly modified f-15 airframe.....top speed would increase, along with the supercruise, taking it farther, payload increases, along with ease of pilot conversion. the f-22 is very capable, but its taking a long time to work out kinks.....jamming itself, tail surface problems......i mean airframe repairs to an f-15......are pennies on the dollar compared with thousands on the same say....bullet hole on the f-22....the access panels are nice, but will they stay on with high speed, high-G maneuvers....i'm not sure.

The time and expense required for such an undertaking makes no sense. It would cost more to refit an F-15 to equal the capabilities of the F-22 than the F-22 cost to build in the first place...and it would never be as capable anyway. You can only do so much with an airframe before you max it out. The youngest -15C is just short of 20 years old now. How many more TCTOs should we stuff into the plane before it splits at the seams?

Don't get me wrong - the F-22 does have its own maintenance quirks. Like any other aircraft, it has unique traits that will bedevil maintainers for at least 20 years. It, however, represents the future. The F-15 has nothing to apologise for, and when it is finally retired, it will be remembered fondly (even by myself).

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 6):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
People that continue to point out the track record of our F-15's don't take into account the 30+ year age of the airplane and the fact that it has reached the pinnacle of it's effectiveness. Our F-15's are not superior to the latest SU fighters in some areas and we owe it to our soldiers and airmen to provide them with the best we can put out there.

I agree. The reason the F-15 has a perfect record is because it has not gone up against a truly well trained and effective force of modern fighters. The SU birds are truly awesome in trained hands. So is the Eurofighter and Rafale. We may have to go up against the Eurofighter as well someday - the French especially are known for selling almost anything to almost anybody.

The state of the art in fighters is ahead of the F-15. If we let ourselves fall even further behind by getting rid of the F-22, it will be very hard to catch up again if the need arises. Really good air superiority fighters take forever to develop no matter who is doing it. When China or someone else in that region confronts us with a modern, well trained airforce flying fighters superior to ours it will already be to late.

Our military doctrine requires air supremacy. This does not simply mean we win most dogfights. It means that we quickly and decisively evict nearly all of the enemy from the sky. Without air supremacy we are lost. Our forces are not built to fight without it. Building ground and naval forces capable of winning decisively without air supremacy would be way more expensive than buying the F-22, and might not even be possible at all.

What they said...

Be well!

signed,
an old, broken down F-15C "B-shopper"  Smile
"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
Cheshire
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2001 11:48 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:08 am

French especially are known for selling almost anything to almost anybody

What a cheap shot- ask anyone shot by the Mujahadeen or Contra rebels in Central America were their weapons came from- That's right- courtesy of the US taxpayer. The US is the last country on Earth to lecture anyone on responsible arms dealing.

The SU birds are truly awesome in trained hands

What- at an airshow? You mean demonstration models with a much lighter MTOW?

However much the Russians and Chinese might like to boast of the Su's capabilities over the Eagle, three factors nullify its supposed superiority-

Lack of an AWAC platform as capable as the E-3

Inferior Training, which in the case of Russia, leads to

Lack of combat ready pilots and a/c

It's a good thing too, since the USAF will always be able to protect us from madmen with Mirages.........
 
Cheshire
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2001 11:48 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:12 am

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 6):
the French especially are known for selling almost anything to almost anybody.

What a cheap shot- ask anyone shot by the Mujahadeen or Contra rebels in Central America were their weapons came from- That's right- courtesy of the US taxpayer. The US is the last country on Earth to lecture anyone on responsible arms dealing.

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 6):
The SU birds are truly awesome in trained hands.

What- at an airshow? You mean demonstration models with a much lighter MTOW?

However much the Russians and Chinese might like to boast of the Su's capabilities over the Eagle, three factors nullify its supposed superiority-

Lack of an AWAC platform as capable as the E-3

Inferior Training, which in the case of Russia, leads to

Lack of combat ready pilots and a/c

It's a good thing too, since the USAF will always be able to protect us from madmen with Mirages.........
 
AR1300
Posts: 1686
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:22 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:14 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
Our F-15's are not superior to the latest SU fighters in some areas and we owe it to our soldiers and airmen to provide them with the best we can put out there.

yes

Quoting Cheshire (Reply 12):
What- at an airshow? You mean demonstration models with a much lighter MTOW?

no.At the last Cope India exersices the Indians SU-27's outfought the F-15's.
It's a fact.

Quoting ERAUMcDlover (Thread starter):
the F-15 is faster then the F-22.

For afew short bursts.The F-22 has supercruise capabilities, allowing it to fly the whole time at Mach+ speeds.

Quoting ERAUMcDlover (Thread starter):
i'd love my enemy to at least know i'm coming

Ummm. that's quite stupid.Real war with real weapons is not a joke.You wanna win.You don't wan't them to praise your ac while they watch and say ''coooool''.And you don't want your enemy to know what's going on.


Mike

[Edited 2005-08-23 03:15:23]
You are now free to move about the cabin
 
CTR
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:57 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:15 am

ERAMcDlover,

"why don't we take the engines and the radar from the F-22 and throw them in the F-15...a Little more vectoring, next generation missiles, and maybe canards?"

Been there done that! See attached link.

http://www.ascho.wpafb.af.mil/START/PG28-B.HTM

In the mid eighties MCAIR did just that. The canards were actually F-18 elevators and the engines were PW with two dimensional nozzles.

It was shown that with modifications the F-15 could perform 95% of the F-22 mission. But that did not leave any room for future growth. Stealth was also not as good.

The F-22 will have teething problems. But so did the F-4 and F-15. At least the Airforce is not requiring the destruction of the F-15 tooling to prevent congress from backing out of production of the F-22. They did just that with the F-4 Phantom. Even though there were foreign powers lined up to buy them.

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
jrw261
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:32 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:18 pm

Im sure this same debate took place when every one of the USAF's a/c was being developed. And the times it didn't were when we were at war and needed newly developed a/c yesterday.

Do you want a vaccine for your illness days after you get sick.. or before you get sick. I prefer before.
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:34 pm

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 13):
no.At the last Cope India exersices the Indians SU-27's outfought the F-15's.
It's a fact.

Not sure if Cope India was an accurate gauge of capabilities since the USAF had certain tactical constraints placed on them and some wags around here and elsewhere have wondered if those constraints were placed on the Eagle drivers to make a better case for F-22 appropriations.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
sean1234
Posts: 401
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2000 2:52 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:15 pm

As mentioned above the F-22 out performs the F-15 in all aspects except the top speed. Again the top speed is not of too great importance considering the F-22 can fly circles around the F-15, it out accelerates probably better in every flight envelope, and both of these are assuming the F-15 gets a chance to dogfight with the F-22 which of course is problematic if you can't find it.

The reason the top speed is slower, I believe Mach 1.8 versus 2.5+ is the intakes for the engines were designed with stealth in mind instead of outright top speed. I imagine if the intakes were changed to a less stealthy design the F-22 would probably best the F-15 in top speed.
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:07 am

But if the money keeps getting cut for the F-22, when does the readily availabl F/A-18E become a viable alternative to the aged F-15C's not able to be replaced by the F-22?

Sure it lacks the top speed of an Eagle but GE has a souped-up variant of the GE F414 ready to go that I'm sure if the USAF wanted to buy a hundred or so could get the financial approval it needed for a green light on that.

The F/A-18E is an actual dual-purpose F/A aircraft with a modern pit, designed for maintenance, AESA radar, and many more hardpoints for new and improved AMRAAMs and AIM-9X with JHMCS. Let's see an F-15C sling 10-12 AAM's!  Smile

Considering the savings, I'd think it to be a heullva lot better to the alternative: NOTHING!

Let's face it - the F/A-18E is the new F-15C and just like with the F-14D, it may not be better in all areas it has a lot to offer. With all the numbers of the USN there would be tremendous savings to be had in commonality. Hell, it'd be like the old F-4 againa and who knows, maybe they Marines would buy some F/A-18F's lke they need to in order to properly replace their current F/A-18D's so as to retain FAC(A).



http://www3.famille.ne.jp/~m344/200204m_fa18e.jpg

http://www.swissjet.ch/1024/AIR04/Jets/20040916_F18F.jpg



[Edited 2005-08-23 18:19:53]
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:49 am

Quoting Cheshire (Reply 11):
What a cheap shot- ask anyone shot by the Mujahadeen or Contra rebels in Central America were their weapons came from- That's right- courtesy of the US taxpayer. The US is the last country on Earth to lecture anyone on responsible arms dealing.

I am truly flattered that you believe me to be speaking on behalf of my government. I am nothing but a private citizen, I did not deny any real or supposed grievances against my government you may have. I was speaking about France, not the US. I said nothing about my own country. We've screwed up just like they did. Iran is a good example. IMHO France just seem to screw up more and for more selfish motives. We can agree to disagree on that.

BTW... I should be ashamed of what we did for the Contras and the Mujahedine. We helped brave men defended themselves from Communism with automatic rifles and shoulder fired SAMS while the Soviets were providing their enemies with the latest tanks and helicopter gunships. I see my country is truly shameful. We should have let them make due with sticks and stones. Its a big shame for free people to be strong, or help other free people be strong. Being free means you have to be weak. Military strength is a sign of moral inferiority. This is because war is, well, a bad thing. And weakness makes it go away. This kind of thinking just amazes me.

Quoting Cheshire (Reply 12):
What- at an airshow? You mean demonstration models with a much lighter MTOW?

No, I mean in training exercises with friendly airforces, raw analysis of the data, and the use of simulators. It is better or it is close enough that the Eagle has no decisive advantage - if you look at just the planes themselves and not the total war machine. This is not really disputed much by people in the know. If we did not depend on air superiority as much as we do, or not want to fight a war with as few casualties as possible, this would not be a big deal. The way things now stand, it is a big deal.

Quoting Cheshire (Reply 12):
Lack of an AWAC platform as capable as the E-3

Inferior Training, which in the case of Russia, leads to

Lack of combat ready pilots and a/c

It's a good thing too, since the USAF will always be able to protect us from madmen with Mirages.........

All of this is being worked on. Many of our allies are already there. Japan has been there for a long time. So has Israel. Would you care to guarantee that all that expertise and hardware will always be exclusively ours? In 5-10 years China will be able to take us on equal terms without the F22. Then it will be to late. It would take a very long time to regenerate the capability to build a truly WINNING fighter. Remember, it is not enough merely to have parity. When lives are on the line you have to win decisively. Lose the fewest men. Have the shortest war possible. Kill the fewest people. Sure it is possible to neglect this and catch up later. The trouble is the catching up later may have to be done during a long, global conflict - a conflict that could have been prevented or contained if we had a truly top of the line military.

I'll dissent from my fellow conservatives here and say that terrorism is not the greatest long-term threat to America. Al Qaida can crash our airplanes. Someday, they could even nuke one of our cities. The toll from even this worst of terrorist acts would not come close to the lives we lost in World War II. A prolonged , bloody conflict with another great power or alliance should be our greatest fear - whether conventional or nuclear. This could cause a true global cataclysm. A great power can do everything that Al Quaida can do and much, much more. The F22 is a weapon meant to deter such aggressors, or failing that, to win decisively against them.

[Edited 2005-08-23 18:59:37]
 
eaglekeeper101
Posts: 269
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:14 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:10 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
The F/A-18E is an actual dual-purpose F/A aircraft with a modern pit, designed for maintenance, AESA radar, and many more hardpoints for new and improved AMRAAMs and AIM-9X with JHMCS. Let's see an F-15C sling 10-12 AAM's!

"Dual purpose." Able to attack ground targets while also employing the ability to conduct itself quite well in aerial combat, or vice versa.

Good things all, but what they represent is a compromise.

The F-15, however, as originally intended, was built for air superiority. Period. Its overall design reflects this - an airframe purpose-built for high-altitude maneuverability, designed around a (at the time) monstrous radar antenna, part of a radar package with better range and functionality than any fighter flying (with the exception of the F-14, IIRC, since its mission required even more radar capability than the Air Force needed)...long range for a fighter - especially combat range - due to its large internal fuel capacity and 3 goodly-sized drop tanks. These are just for starters...

The F/A-18E is, quite simply, not a pure air superiority aircraft. Its radar, while sophisticated, is of lesser range, if I remember rightly. I do not know, off the top of my head, what the combined internal/external fuel capacity of the -18E, but I would be hard-pressed to believe, solely based on size, that it carries as much as a -15 does (I'm equally sure it uses a little less fuel due to engine size, but I think the overall consumption would result in less range overall for the -18E). In addition, the Air Force would have to rely on a larger mixture of tankers during operations with the -18E, since I doubt it could be refitted to take a boom instead of the drogue it uses now. Logistical concern, I know - but something to keep in mind. Newer, more powerful engines, of the ilk of the engines currently in use on the F-22, would entail insane amounts of re-engineering, and would certainly be too costly to contemplate anyway - and then the aircraft would need even more fuel storage...which adds more weight...just the beginnings of a new chain...an endless circle...of more compromises.

Now, I cannot dispute which aircraft has a more sophisticated cockpit lol.  Wink

The F-22, horrifically expensive though it may be, is built with the same reasoning that the F-15 was. Its design is extremely suitable for that purpose, and is light years beyond the F-15 in capability.

In my opinion, trading this future capability for an aircraft that, although exceptional, represents a different design philosophy AND a different mission, is unwise.

Be well!  Smile
"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting Eaglekeeper101 (Reply 20):
"Dual purpose." Able to attack ground targets while also employing the ability to conduct itself quite well in aerial combat, or vice versa.

Good things all, but what they represent is a compromise.

With the new AESA radar the aircraft can scan both air and ground targets at the same time. The F/A-22 is far more a compromise than the Super Hornet is!  Smile If we have a number of strategically placed F-22's we can offset each base with a squadron or two of F/A-18E's for the economical ground=pounding while retaining much of the F-15C's aerial supremacy. Let's face it, a Super Hornet wins in a knife fight with AIM-9X and it's slow speed charactersitics and with it's better radar and more hardpoints to sling current and future AMRAAMs, it's a better BVR airacfart as well. The only thing the F-15C has on an F/A-18E is thrust and range. An AIM-9X up the tailpipe will take care of the thrust differential and KC-767's will make up for the range.

As far as the radar is concerned, I'm sure the engineers could tailor it to what the USAF prefers.

The engines you speak of were remember for the Super Hornet, and are already designed and tested per GE - they just need to be ordered. They use lessons learned from the JSF engine and offer better maintenance, fuel economy, and more thrust.

I'm not saying it would be 100% replacement for the Eagles but then again they aren't necessarily 100% a replacement for the F-14's either.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:51 am

The F/A-18E does not win in a knife fight with the F-15. The Eagle still outturns and maintains it's speed for longer in the turns.

Both aircraft can use the AIM-9X, and the only real advantage to the Rhino is the newness.

Quoting Cheshire (Reply 12):
However much the Russians and Chinese might like to boast of the Su's capabilities over the Eagle, three factors nullify its supposed superiority-

Lack of an AWAC platform as capable as the E-3

Inferior Training, which in the case of Russia, leads to

Lack of combat ready pilots and a/c

Well, they are rectifying their AWACs issues, and the Chinese at least are spending more time and money in training, and the number of pilots grows there all the time.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:11 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 22):
The F/A-18E does not win in a knife fight with the F-15

Well maybe not with all it's inherient external fuel tanks, or course!  Smile

Quoting DL021 (Reply 22):
The F/A-18E does not win in a knife fight with the F-15. The Eagle still outturns and maintains it's speed for longer in the turns.

The F-15's wing is only advantageous at high altitudes, but I should have been more specific. In a low altitude and low-speed fight after the initial pass the advantage is all Super Hornet with the long LERX's and ability to point it's nose at airspeeds the F-15C would just be faling out of the sky. Still, such hypotheticals are probabilities just like rolling dice at a casion, so it's relatively academic at best.

I still think the USAF should look into replacing the F-15C's it can't afford to replace F-22's with. Since the F-15C's pale in comparsion to the F/A-18E in the A/G role, the Super Hornets are likely even a better and less expensive alternative for the USAF slinging mud than it is to risk the numerically rare F-22's. If the Navy is buying over 500 of them they can't be so bad as to where the USAF couldn't buy some and save some money for their pet projects!  Smile
 
eaglekeeper101
Posts: 269
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:14 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:52 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
Since the F-15C's pale in comparsion to the F/A-18E in the A/G role, the Super Hornets are likely even a better and less expensive alternative for the USAF slinging mud than it is to risk the numerically rare F-22's

If I am reading you correctly (please let me know if I am not), you are stating that the -18 is a better alternative for A/G than the -22.

If this is your position, well, you are correct. Why? Because the F-22 was not designed for A/G at all. However, it works air superiority better than just about anything (when it's not broken lol).

If you want ultimate A/G...well, I have a fond weakness for the F-111, the A-6, the A-4, and the Buccaneer - oh well, color me 30-ish  Wink

I do hope that, someday, we will order more F-22s than we have currently budgeted for. I am also sure that F-15s aren't going to go away for a long long time. I would bet that we will still be getting good usage out of our Eagle fleet for at least 10-15 more years.

Now, I am not saying the -18 is useless. On the contrary, I wish the Air Force had gone with what has become the F-18 over that short-range, Lawn Dart-ish contraption called...the F-16  grumpy 

Now, we just have to see how the JSF shapes out to be - perhaps it will be a class winner (and bank breaker) just like its big brother...time will tell.

Be well!
"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:37 am

I'm certainly not advocating any further cuts to the F-22 and in fact I'm of the opinion that we should still buy 700 of them and let our inept bean coutners and politicans find another way to piss away our tax revenues!

I'm a big fan of the F-16 and I'd rather buy another round of modern Vipers over the JSF if we could save some cash on that program and buy more F-22's instead.

My point is this - if we're only going to buy 350 at best F-22's to replace 700 F-15's than let's buy around 350 F/A-18E's to replace the remaining F-15C's. Together they can both perform the roles of air superiority while offering an increased ability to perform multi-mission strikes as well. I think it might be cheaper to buy some Super Hornets rather than pump money into keeping legacy Eagles in the air past their prime.

Like you have pointed out, the F-15C much like the F-14 was built in a time where maintenance was not as high a priority and suffice to say no where near the modern tech that is available today on the Super Hornet that was designed for the maintainers as well.

[Edited 2005-08-23 22:37:48]
 
eaglekeeper101
Posts: 269
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:14 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:23 am

I see the direction you are headed in...

Following your train of thought for devil's advocate sake, would it possibly be much more advantageous for the Air Force to, as opposed to using the -18E, instead ramp up production lines on the -15Es once again, thus fulfilling your advocacy of a multi-role aircraft? Or, would you oppose that on the basis of unit cost?

This thread has possibilities. I'll have to check up on it tomorrow. Right now, it's bedtime!

Be well...
"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:18 am

If you look at the Su-27 being the F-15 of Russia, take a look at how far Russia has been able to go. They now have the likes of the Su-35 and 37 - variants of the Su-27.

Imagine this... If the US were to take that approach and upgrade the F-15, with:

Airframe enhancements: The same way Russia has done the Su-27 - canards, thrust vectoring, etc

Systems enhancements: F-22 like systems, such as the radar and avonics

Other "patches": Such as attempting to make it stealthy in the same way that the Super Hornet is "stealthy" over the regular Hornet

The result would be something nothing short of amazing. It still wouldn't be an F-22, but it'd be something that not too many people would really want to be up against. And, its nothing new, the F-15 has already had canards and thrust vectoring, the F-22 systems are "off the shelf", stealthy features are well understood, etc.
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:05 am

Quoting Eaglekeeper101 (Reply 26):
Following your train of thought for devil's advocate sake, would it possibly be much more advantageous for the Air Force to, as opposed to using the -18E, instead ramp up production lines on the -15Es once again, thus fulfilling your advocacy of a multi-role aircraft? Or, would you oppose that on the basis of unit cost?

I would really only be for the F/A-18E if the numbers were right. It makes me sick to see others like Israel (given away at that) and the UAE fly away with better F-16's than that of our own USAF and the same with the F-15K and those nice big shiny new GE F110's! The USAF was interested in one last big buy of Strike Eagles with the money saved by leasing the KC-0767's but when that program's sh!t hit the fan I don't know if they permanently gave up on the idea or what they strategy is now.

I think replacing elder F-15C's with modern F-15E/K's would be cost prohibitive and that only the F/A-18E may be possible with the numbers the Navy is buying for the prices that I am thinking about. Then again, even as prices are concerned I think the only reason you might even be able to consider the F/A-18E is because it's built by Boeing using familiar parts and weapons and of course is completely ready to go. A lot of money saved on R&D for the USAF just to "buy" into it right now. It may not be exactly what they were looking for but for the savings it might prove to be a rather attractive platform.
 
ftrguy
Posts: 347
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:17 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:27 am

Air Ryan,
I'm going to be a dork, but your cockpit picture is to an F/A-18C and not an E model.

FYI
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:51 pm

Quoting Ftrguy (Reply 29):
Air Ryan,
I'm going to be a dork, but your cockpit picture is to an F/A-18C and not an E model.

FYI

My bad, it still took me a second to figure it out when you noted the difference!
 
j.mo
Posts: 652
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2002 12:29 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:54 am

I recently watched an interesting program on the National Geographic channel or the Military Channel on the F-22 vs. the F-15.

The Air Force staged an exercise to prove the viability and how much more advanced the F-22 really is. They took 5 F-22 pilots and put them back in their F-15's and put them up against 1 F-22.

According to all the pilots, including Paul Metz, who has been a F-22 test pilot for most of the program, the F-22 killed every F-15 before they even knew what happened. Paul Metz was flying a F-15 and he said the first time he even saw an F-22 was when it went blowing past him after he was "dead."

There is talk about it on other forums. Do a Google search and some links show up.

Jeremy
 
LMP737
Posts: 4808
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 7:11 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
But if the money keeps getting cut for the F-22, when does the readily availabl F/A-18E become a viable alternative to the aged F-15C's not able to be replaced by the F-22?

Sure it lacks the top speed of an Eagle but GE has a souped-up variant of the GE F414 ready to go that I'm sure if the USAF wanted to buy a hundred or so could get the financial approval it needed for a green light on that.

The F/A-18E is an actual dual-purpose F/A aircraft with a modern pit, designed for maintenance, AESA radar, and many more hardpoints for new and improved AMRAAMs and AIM-9X with JHMCS. Let's see an F-15C sling 10-12 AAM's!

Considering the savings, I'd think it to be a heullva lot better to the alternative: NOTHING!

Let's face it - the F/A-18E is the new F-15C and just like with the F-14D, it may not be better in all areas it has a lot to offer. With all the numbers of the USN there would be tremendous savings to be had in commonality. Hell, it'd be like the old F-4 againa and who knows, maybe they Marines would buy some F/A-18F's lke they need to in order to properly replace their current F/A-18D's so as to retain FAC(A).

Why would the USAF want an aircraft who's original design is close to thirty years of age? Or an aircraft that was shoved down the throat of the Navy fighter community.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:40 pm

Quoting Cheshire (Reply 11):
What- at an airshow? You mean demonstration models with a much lighter MTOW?

You can clearly find pictures of Sukhois being brilliantly demonstrated at max gross in the database. Complete with full loads hanging from the wings.
 
User avatar
vzlet
Posts: 818
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:34 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Fri Aug 26, 2005 9:04 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 33):
You can clearly find pictures of Sukhois being brilliantly demonstrated at max gross in the database. Complete with full loads hanging from the wings.

MD-90,
Not that I can offer any proof, but I'd think it very unlikely that any Flanker would be burdened with 20,000 pounds of fuel for a demo flight intended to showcase its maneuverability and power. Similarly, I assume that when one sees a combat aircraft demonstrating with extensive external stores, those stores are reduced-weight mockups of the real items.

-Mark
"That's so stupid! If they're so secret, why are they out where everyone can see them?" - my kid
 
AFHokie
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 3:29 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 7:09 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 33):
You can clearly find pictures of Sukhois being brilliantly demonstrated at max gross in the database. Complete with full loads hanging from the wings.

I just did a search on here, have yet to find a photo of a flanker performing with any pylons let alone any loads.

Aircraft performing at airshows do not conduct their acts at MTOW.
 
User avatar
glideslope
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 8:06 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:39 pm

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 6):
We may have to go up against the Eurofighter as well someday - the French especially are known for selling almost anything to almost anybody.

Actually, the thought of going up against French Eurofighters is quite appealing.  Smile
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
sonic67
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:43 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:47 am

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 5):
Now while the F-15 is a very capable aircraft it will not meet future demands, nor will the development of competing aircraft stop. It is the unforeseen future need that makes an aircraft like the F/A-22 neccessary.

I agree that further development of the F-15 with perhaps with thrust vectoring and new avionic will help but can only be taken so far on an existing platform.

Also the recent loss to the Indian air force mock close-in dog fight shows that the rest of the world air force are catching up to the technology of the F-15. If the US wants to stay a world super power Air superiority is king
 
jmets18
Posts: 175
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:50 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:37 am

Speed: F/A-22 vs. F-15

Not to put everyone's panties in a bunch that have spent the last week discussing this, but the F-15 is not faster in any portion of it's flight envelope.

The next question will be, "how do you know?" The same reason that the USAF wants you to believe it's top speed is slower, is the same reason that I can't tell you.

Have fun...
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:28 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 36):
French Eurofighters is quite appealing

Especially since French Eurofighters don't exist, since the French bailed out on the project.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:02 pm

Quoting Jmets18 (Reply 38):
The same reason that the USAF wants you to believe it's top speed is slower, is the same reason that I can't tell you.

Just to nitpick here a bit Jmets . . . but if you're making allusions that you may possess secrective/sensitive information on a USAF aircraft to a public, international internet forum, you're walking thin ice . . . please go see your local USAF Intelligence Officer (I know, military oxymoron) and get debriefed and retrained.

Tis either the aforementioned lack if classified data discipline or someone is attempting blow smoke . . .  redflag 

[Edited 2005-08-30 05:07:28]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Duce50Boom
Posts: 723
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 8:03 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:34 pm

No kidding ANC. If you really are in the know Jmets you probably already know what you can and can't talk about. Instead of insinuating "yeah, it can go faster but I didn't just say that" if you really did know you would've just passed up the "Post the message" button and walked away with your reputation, and more importantly, your security clearance, intact.

It's good to know that if you really are entrusted to secrets like that (if it's true) you are all to willing to hand it off to folks on an unclassified network. I'll sleep well tonight
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 32):
Why would the USAF want an aircraft who's original design is close to thirty years of age? Or an aircraft that was shoved down the throat of the Navy fighter community.

Because the USAF has wasted all their R&D funds for a fighter jet on the F/A-22 and they are already being told that they won't be allowed to buy enough to replace their current F-15C fleet.

Since the F/A-18E is already in full production it would be very inexpensive for the USAF to acquire them and quite frankly, it can do most things the F-15C does well enough and it can do many things that the F-15C cannot.
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:51 am

I noticed my link above for the Super Hornet pic doesn't work anymore, so I'll try this one.



That pit sure beats anything any F-15 has ever yielded to include an F-15E.

Sure an F/A-18E may not have the top speed or quite the acceleration as the F-15C, but it's lack of range can be made up for with tankers and externals.

What the F/A-18E can bring to the table is a far more lethal A/G capability between it's much better multi-mode AESA radar and it's ability to sling many modern A/G weapons. Add on to that it can carry more AMRAAM missiles which are fired from a distance and with newer AMRAAMs a much longer distance which would even more so negate any less capabilities of the F/A-18E has under the F-15C.

So add all that into the significant savings in the initial purchase of the off the shelf block II or even III (include new upgraded GE F414's) F/A-18E's (and maybe even some F/A-18F's) combined with the significant savings in maintenance, well it certainly sounds like a much better alternative than keeping aged F-15C's in service alongside of F/A-22's.

[Edited 2005-08-30 20:54:27]
 
Duce50Boom
Posts: 723
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 8:03 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:54 am

Cousin Eddie: "Yep, she's a real beaut' Clark. Like the greenwalls"
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:15 pm

You must be reffering to the Family Truckster!  Smile

 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:00 pm

Quoting Cheshire (Reply 12):
Quoting Cloudy (Reply 6):
the French especially are known for selling almost anything to almost anybody.

What a cheap shot- ask anyone shot by the Mujahadeen or Contra rebels in Central America were their weapons came from- That's right- courtesy of the US taxpayer. The US is the last country on Earth to lecture anyone on responsible arms dealing

Ask anybody on the USS Stark or the HMS Sheffield where the missiles that hit their respective ships came from and where the aircraft that launched it came from.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Duce50Boom
Posts: 723
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 8:03 am

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:54 pm

You know it AirRyan! ....."I don't know why they call this stuff hamburger helper.....Seems to do just fine by itself. I prefer it to tuna helper myself. Wouldn't you agree Clark?"
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:57 am

Quoting AFHokie (Reply 35):
Aircraft performing at airshows do not conduct their acts at MTOW.

You're right, I was just spouting off and shouldn't have said max gross. But I've seen pictures of Sukhois performing with extensive stores under the wings.
 
sean1234
Posts: 401
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2000 2:52 pm

RE: Is The F-22 Necessary, Why Not Newer F-15?

Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:35 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 40):

The Air Force says top speed Mach 1.8+
Lockheed says 2.0+

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 11Bravo and 15 guests