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N328KF
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Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:10 pm

Courtesy of The Chicago Tribune:

For several years, Boeing Co. has been consistent on one point: The best aircraft to replace the Air Force's aging tanker fleet is a modified version of its 767 commercial jet.

On Tuesday, however, Chicago-based Boeing said it was ready to build a new tanker based on any of its airframes, including the next-generation, fuel-efficient 787 Dreamliner.

"We have a full family of aircraft, and if the Air Force and the Department of Defense determine a new aircraft is the best solution for replacing the KC 135 tanker, we think we can ensure their requirements are met," said Brian Ames, a Boeing spokesman.

[...]


See article:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...128468.story?coll=chi-business-hed
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
Lumberton
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:10 am

Read that too. Has the tanker competition been formally re-opened? Wouldn't the RFP have to be modified?

Honestly, I don't see the USAF as pushing a tanker replacement too hard at this point. F-22 & JSF are clearly the funding priorities. I'm not even sure they'll ask to extend C-17 production at this point. The bills for the last 4 years of "war on terror" are coming due.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
AirRyan
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:36 am

Wow - about frickin' time, Boeing! Okay, now we can all but formally award Boeing with the KC-787 tanker because Airbus has nothing to compete with that platform. I was really having to lean towards the KC-330 over the KC-767 but now, no need. No way the USAF could pass up the 787 here.

Good job Boeing - it will work out in the long run better for all: the taxpayers, the USAF, and Boeing selling another 100+ 787's!

Okay, somebody quick draw up the USAF KC-787 and make it hi-rez for my desktop!  Smile

[Edited 2005-09-14 18:39:15]
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:20 am

I knew it!!! This is after Boeing has stated that the 787 platform is not well adapted for a tanker role. HA!!  liar   liar  Pants on fire!!!!
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
socal
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:51 am

I think Boeing should use the 767, but that is only my opinion.  Cool
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Sinlock
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:54 pm

If this turns out to be how the New Tanker bid go's then Airbus might have a better chance, as Boeing will not likely offer the sweetheart deal with the low price fixing that were going to happen with the 767.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:02 pm

I doubt the 2005 USAF will buy an airplane like that having never seen its civilian version fly.

40 or 50 years ago we would not be having this discussion, the KC-767s would already be flying overhead.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
sidishus
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:44 pm

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 6):
I doubt the 2005 USAF will buy an airplane like that having never seen its civilian version fly.

40 or 50 years ago we would not be having this discussion, the KC-767s would already be flying overhead.

50 years ago Boeing brought forth (on their own dime) an aircraft optimized for the military mission of the day and didn't grab a less than optimum civil design to stretch fit into the role...
They called that aircraft the KC-135.

http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing/dash80.html
The Boeing Company had invested $16 million (two-thirds of the company's net profits from the post-war years) to build this prototype for a long-range jet aircraft. It was developed in secrecy and designated Model 367-80 to disguise it as merely an improved version of the Stratofreighter. It was subsequently nicknamed the "Dash 80," had jet engines and swept wings and was very different from the straight-wing, propeller-powered Stratofreighter. When the Dash 80 was almost finished, the company gambled again — by tooling and gearing up for a production aircraft, although neither the Air Force, nor any airline, had placed a single order.

Because the prototype was constructed to sell first as a military-tanker transport, it had few windows and no seats, but had two large cargo doors. A week after its first flight, the Air Force ordered 29 tanker versions, the KC-135.


FWIW that 16 million in 2005 dollars works out to $111,360,085.06 to field the first prototype.

[Edited 2005-09-15 08:58:56]
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keesje
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:10 pm

The crowd that for years argued the A330 was too big and advanced will no doubt smoothly rewrite the storyline (& history if neccesary).

The Search button will be their biggest opposite..
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Lumberton
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:24 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
Read that too. Has the tanker competition been formally re-opened? Wouldn't the RFP have to be modified?

Honestly, I don't see the USAF as pushing a tanker replacement too hard at this point. F-22 & JSF are clearly the funding priorities. I'm not even sure they'll ask to extend C-17 production at this point. The bills for the last 4 years of "war on terror" are coming due.

This article in today's Seattle Times sheds more light.

(Quote)
The Air Force said earlier this year that it set aside $552 million between fiscal 2007 and 2011 for research and $8.58 billion to start buying the tankers. The start date for the bidding hasn't been set because review of an analysis of alternatives done by the Rand Corp. won't be completed until later this year, the Air Force has said. (Unquote)

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/240722_tanker15.html
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
AirRyan
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:24 am

Quoting Sidishus (Reply 7):
Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 6):
I doubt the 2005 USAF will buy an airplane like that having never seen its civilian version fly.

40 or 50 years ago we would not be having this discussion, the KC-767s would already be flying overhead.

50 years ago Boeing brought forth (on their own dime) an aircraft optimized for the military mission of the day and didn't grab a less than optimum civil design to stretch fit into the role...
They called that aircraft the KC-135.

http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing/dash80.html
The Boeing Company had invested $16 million (two-thirds of the company's net profits from the post-war years) to build this prototype for a long-range jet aircraft. It was developed in secrecy and designated Model 367-80 to disguise it as merely an improved version of the Stratofreighter. It was subsequently nicknamed the "Dash 80," had jet engines and swept wings and was very different from the straight-wing, propeller-powered Stratofreighter. When the Dash 80 was almost finished, the company gambled again — by tooling and gearing up for a production aircraft, although neither the Air Force, nor any airline, had placed a single order.

Because the prototype was constructed to sell first as a military-tanker transport, it had few windows and no seats, but had two large cargo doors. A week after its first flight, the Air Force ordered 29 tanker versions, the KC-135.

FWIW that 16 million in 2005 dollars works out to $111,360,085.06 to field the first prototype.

Exactly - the USAF buying a KC-767 in 2005 would be like they instead of the KC-135's they bought at the time buying KC-17's based off a B-17! Since the USAF will likely keep this new KC platform for next 40-50 years easy, the KC-787 and it's composite fuselage will be the more logical choice for numerous reasons.
 
LMP737
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:50 am

With estimates coming in for the Katrina recovery efforts I have a feeling that it will be a while before we see any new tankers in the USAF inventory.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
dc1030guy
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:28 am

Assuming the Air Force buys the KC-787, it will be at least a decade until they receive one unless Boeing opens up two lines of production. The commercial carriers who have already optioned to buy have first dibs.

-Pat
 
Alessandro
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:35 am

About time, I think the B767 destiny is sealed.
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CaptOveur
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:17 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 11):
With estimates coming in for the Katrina recovery efforts I have a feeling that it will be a while before we see any new tankers in the USAF inventory.

Apples... Oranges
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:34 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
The crowd that for years argued the A330 was too big and advanced will no doubt smoothly rewrite the storyline (& history if neccesary).

While a 787 will be more advanced, it is still likely that it will be shorter than the A332.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:37 pm

>> While a 787 will be more advanced, it is still likely that it will be shorter than the A332.

Wingspan is the issue... the 787-8 and the A332 have simmilar wingspan. Unless Boeing does some wierd 788 gross weight with 783 chopped wing.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:41 pm

Quoting Dc1030guy (Reply 12):
Assuming the Air Force buys the KC-787, it will be at least a decade until they receive one unless Boeing opens up two lines of production. The commercial carriers who have already optioned to buy have first dibs.

Why would that be strange? Boeing is doing just that for the 737 line. Anyhow, with potential sales of between 100 and 600 units, I wouldn't be at all surprised at Boeing opening an additional line for military production. There is already speculation on that subject just for the civil version.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
AirRyan
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:22 am

Quoting Dc1030guy (Reply 12):
Assuming the Air Force buys the KC-787, it will be at least a decade until they receive one unless Boeing opens up two lines of production. The commercial carriers who have already optioned to buy have first dibs.

Boeing is already exploring the possibility of a second 787 line.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
Wingspan is the issue... the 787-8 and the A332 have simmilar wingspan. Unless Boeing does some wierd 788 gross weight with 783 chopped wing.

The wingspan argument is relative non-issue and was more a reason why not to consider the KC-330 than anything else. Boeing designed a 777 with a wing that folded up for ramp space and I'm sure they could do so on the KC-787 if it reall yneeded to be.
 
LMP737
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RE: Boeing Willing To Use 787 As Tanker

Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:37 am

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 14):
Apples... Oranges

No, a simple fact. Given the current budget deficit and with the projected cost of the Katrina recovery we might just see certain programs either delayed or cancelled all together.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.

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