PPVRA
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Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:14 am

CNN article:

Quote:
CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -- President Hugo Chavez warned Tuesday he might share Venezuela's U.S.-made F-16 fighters with Cuba and China, accusing the United States of making it difficult for his country to obtain spare parts for the aircraft.

full article:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americ...s.ap/index.html?section=cnn_latest

Considering these are early versions of the F-16s, is it really that big of a deal if they actually do it? from a political perspective, I guess so, but as far as technology goes?

Cheers
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jetjack74
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:11 am

This guy is going to find himself dead, very soon! He is not nearly as elusive as Saddam was, easy pick-off. Anyway, it's about as dangerous as when we broke with the Iranians in 1979. They had our technology of the F-14 at their disposal, which in the end was useless to them, they ended up dismantling them because they couldn't get the parts. I'm sure the Chinese already have all the information they need on the F-16, and the Cubans are so irrelevant. Not exactly top secret stuff, especially considering the fact that these are 1st generation examples.
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jwenting
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:11 am

This is the same guy who called for the assassination of the US president.
This is the same guy who demanded last week that the US ban Halloween.
I wish I were flying
 
474218
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:39 am

I am sure when the F-16's were transferred to Venezuela there was an agreement that there transfer to any other country, without the United States permission, would lead to loss of any further military assistance. The problem is that he has money (from oil) and may think he can buy his military from Europe and no longer needs the US.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:41 am

If he wants it that way, then I say we seize CITGO.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
Pope
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:46 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 4):
If he wants it that way, then I say we seize CITGO.

Great idea. Only one problem. We'd have a hell of a lot of gas stations without any gas. The oil fields are in Venezuela.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:07 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 5):
Great idea. Only one problem. We'd have a hell of a lot of gas stations without any gas. The oil fields are in Venezuela.

It's not a seizure of strategic resources, it'd be to cut off his sales outlet.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
Lumberton
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:37 am

Lots of bluster as usual. His F-16s are A's and B's, the avionics are 70's (maybe 80's technology). The Cubans already have MIG-29's, the Chinese have SU-27's. IMO, the potential for compromise of any war-winning technology (and I admit I'm being really glib here) is small.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
ftrguy
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:11 pm

I'm shaking in my boots over this one. Even if Cuba had the F/A-22, you must have competent pilots that are trained and maintain their proficiency to be worth anything. The aircraft is only as good as its pilot. Last I heard Cuba wasn't spending a whole lot of money on keeping their pilots proficient.

All Chavez is doing is trying to make his people think he's a tough guy. He is trying to stand up to the United States because he thinks he can grab us by the balls because of the oil he has. Well, I have news for him. He seems to have small dog syndrome (small dog syndrome=annoying little pain in the ass dog who doesn't shut up and isn't afraid of anything.) If he doesn't keep his mouth shut, the pitbulls are going to get him.
 
AGM114L
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:14 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 7):
Lots of bluster as usual. His F-16s are A's and B's, the avionics are 70's (maybe 80's technology). The Cubans already have MIG-29's, the Chinese have SU-27's. IMO, the potential for compromise of any war-winning technology (and I admit I'm being really glib here) is small.

Well, lets hope they didn't aquire from us or another country any upgrades as far as the radar, weapons, and aircraft survivability equipment goes.
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atmx2000
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:28 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 5):
Great idea. Only one problem. We'd have a hell of a lot of gas stations without any gas. The oil fields are in Venezuela.



Quoting N328KF (Reply 6):

It's not a seizure of strategic resources, it'd be to cut off his sales outlet.

Indeed, Venezuelan oil requires special refining, being a thicker brew. The CITGO refineries in the US are among the small number of refineries in the world that can refine the oil. Seizing the refineries would reduce the export capacity of Venezuela. Of course it would mean higher oil and petroleum derivative prices in the US, and Venezuela would eventually be able to sell the oil to new refinery facilities abroad. The US really needs to build additional refineries to process petroleum from other sources, so that we don't allow ourselves to get screwed by Chavez. The sooner the better, because I don't trust the Venezuelan government under that guy with the stewardship of potentially explosive plants in the US.
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usaafb17fan
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:30 pm

Quoting Ftrguy (Reply 8):
The aircraft is only as good as its pilot.

...and THAT, my friends, should make all of us feel much better! I wholeheartedly agree with Ftrguy. Yes, avionics are important, as well as airframe, maneuverability, and overall characteristics of ANY aircraft, but I don't think we have anything to worry about as far as the F-16 issue, as long as they don't upgrade the pilots flying them for Cuba or Venezuela.
 
AGM114L
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:34 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 7):
The Cubans already have MIG-29's, the Chinese have SU-27's.



Quoting Ftrguy (Reply 8):
I'm shaking in my boots over this one. Even if Cuba had the F/A-22, you must have competent pilots that are trained and maintain their proficiency to be worth anything. The aircraft is only as good as its pilot. Last I heard Cuba wasn't spending a whole lot of money on keeping their pilots proficient.

Building a copy really isn't the point of letting Cuba or China studying the F-16, they more likely want to know how it compares against their ADA systems.
My Boeing can blow up your Boeing
 
L-188
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:19 pm

At this point in time, I think that Chavez giving these aircraft away is less of a threat then the soviets gaining their hands on Iranian F-14's post revolution.

As mentioned these are old mark numbers, a number of them have already been lost in places like Iraq and Bosnia, and their componets examined by the "other side"
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Duce50Boom
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:23 pm

Quoting AGM114L (Reply 12):
Building a copy really isn't the point of letting Cuba or China studying the F-16, they more likely want to know how it compares against their ADA systems

But what's the point of doing it with a somewhat outdated airframe (block 10) and ECM that definitely is not top of the line. To say nothing of the tactics employed to counter said ADA systems. I think this is the equivalent of the Russkies getting hold of a P-40 during the korean war, piloted by the free french AF; nothing to see here folks!
 
LY744
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:44 am

Unless Pakistan whored their Falcons out, no one in the "East Block" has yet to get a good look at the APG-66. Keep in mind that even the advanced versions of the APG-68 (block 25 through 50+) and whatever they call the one on the UAE Block 60s, are still based on the -66. But then again the fundamental technology is already out there. The other component of the F-16A that comes close to being sensitive is the F100 engine, but having been around for 30+ years it is no longer superior to European/CIS technology.

All in all it's probably and idle threat anyways. But it is a perfect example of why the US usually exports degraded/outdated military technology to its non-NATO allies.


LY744.
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jwenting
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:29 am

Block 10 F-16s didn't have any ECM gear  Smile
ESM maybe, but they had to rely on external pods for ECM and I doubt those were ever sold to Venezuela.
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AGM114L
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:36 am

Quoting Duce50boom (Reply 14):
Quoting AGM114L (Reply 12):
Building a copy really isn't the point of letting Cuba or China studying the F-16, they more likely want to know how it compares against their ADA systems

But what's the point of doing it with a somewhat outdated airframe (block 10) and ECM that definitely is not top of the line. To say nothing of the tactics employed to counter said ADA systems. I think this is the equivalent of the Russkies getting hold of a P-40 during the korean war, piloted by the free french AF; nothing to see here folks!

I'm in agreement with you. I just wanted to point out that I doubt that either country is interested in building a F-16 clone.

I think this is just a case of Chavez blowing smoke.
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glideslope
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:31 am

Chavez will be gone by this time next year. The CIA will do it right this time.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:50 am

10 Cuban F-16s against 5000 American F-16s, several hundred F/A 18s, many F-15s.

If I were American, I would get very scared by this threat  Wink
 
dl021
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:26 am

Hey...the Cubans do an excellent job of keeping old American iron running on their roads so there's nothing to indicate that they can't do it with old airplanes......

pointless, but could be fun to watch......

absolutely zero military value to Cuba....since they have no enemies likely to invade and they can't afford to participate in any overseas adventures these days with no sponsor...... unless they are taking over the Venezuelan oil fields....hey, there's a rumor worth starting...
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cannibalz3
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:55 am

The New York Times mentioned this today, with a sentance that read "Venezuela has already given outdated American-built aircraft to Bolivia". Anyone know what they were talking about?
 
luisde8cd
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:25 pm

Quoting CannibalZ3 (Reply 21):
The New York Times mentioned this today, with a sentance that read "Venezuela has already given outdated American-built aircraft to Bolivia". Anyone know what they were talking about?

Yes. That happened a couple of years ago. We sent our t-34 mentor planes. Those were really really old....

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
This guy is going to find himself dead, very soon!

Hopefully...

Quoting 474218 (Reply 3):
I am sure when the F-16's were transferred to Venezuela there was an agreement that there transfer to any other country, without the United States permission

Correct

Quoting N328KF (Reply 4):
If he wants it that way, then I say we seize CITGO.

hmm...

Quoting Pope (Reply 5):
Quoting N328KF (Reply 4):
If he wants it that way, then I say we seize CITGO.

Great idea. Only one problem. We'd have a hell of a lot of gas stations without any gas. The oil fields are in Venezuela.

Couldn't have said it better.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 6):

It's not a seizure of strategic resources, it'd be to cut off his sales outlet.

It will take only a matter of days before Venezuela can find a new buyer for its oil. For example,despite the distance, China has been investing a lot of money lately in oil fields in southeastern Venezuela, especially heavier crude that is expensive to refine.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 10):
The US really needs to build additional refineries to process petroleum from other sources, so that we don't allow ourselves to get screwed by Chavez. The sooner the better, because I don't trust the Venezuelan government under that guy with the stewardship of potentially explosive plants in the US.

Sad but true. Not so long ago (4 years and more), Venezuela was among the top 3 most reliable oil suppliers to the US. Now I think we are in the top of the worst reliable oil supplier to the US.

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 18):
Chavez will be gone by this time next year. The CIA will do it right this time.

I really hope that happens soon before it is too late and Chavez ends up completely destroying my beloved homeland.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
Arrow
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:09 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 18):
Chavez will be gone by this time next year. The CIA will do it right this time.

I'm no fan of Chavez, but if this happens it will be a political disaster for the US. Pay attention to what is happening in other South Americans countries, most of whom think Chavez is a nutbar but have an equally strong dislike for US political meddling. Chavez was democratically elected.

Another US unilateral move at regime change right now would be catastrophic, never mind how distasteful the man and his policies are. Bush did not fare well a couple of weeks ago at the Americas trade meetings, he was crapped on by just about every South American leader who attended. Martin (Canada) and Fox (Mexico) took shots at him as well. This is not a happy time for US foriegn policy, and a CIA-sponsored assassination of Chavez would be the last straw. Let the people of Venezuela take care of Chavez in their own way.
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LMP737
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:31 am

I don't think the US has much to worry about Chavez's threat to give old F-16A/B to Cuba or China. Old technology number one and it's not like Cuba would be able to keep them up and running

Quoting Arrow (Reply 23):
Another US unilateral move at regime change right now would be catastrophic, never mind how distasteful the man and his policies are.

Agree, the worst thing the US could do to him would be to ignore his ranting and ravings. Let him go on about US plans to invade Venezuela or US plots against him. Or spend his countries money to counter these "plans". When nothing happens he'll just make himself to look like a complete blowhard.
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DLPMMM
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:01 am

Chavez should just be ignored. The people of Venezuela will take care of him in their own time and on their own terms.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:01 am

Quoting Arrow (Reply 23):
Another US unilateral move at regime change right now would be catastrophic, never mind how distasteful the man and his policies are.

Won't happen. Looks like he's also pissed off the Mexican government, too.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 23):
nd a CIA-sponsored assassination of Chavez would be the last straw. Let the people of Venezuela take care of Chavez in their own way.

Arrow, you are reading way too many spy novels!  Wink I will be interested to see what Mr. Chavez does when his term expires.

Back OT, IMO there is nothing to this "threat". The avionics in these aircraft are too old to worry about any compromise. The airframes are 60's technology (early 70's at best). Let him bluster.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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glideslope
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RE: Chavez May Send F-16s To China, Cuba

Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:25 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 26):
Won't happen. Looks like he's also pissed off the Mexican government, too.

Ok, let the SSP take care of him. Or, even better, 'Grupo Marte'  Smile

"To ignore ones enemy is to share their bed." Sun Tzu
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu

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