vanguard737
Posts: 523
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2001 7:02 am

Luftwaffe - Get An Aerobatics Team!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:42 pm

Why does the German Luftwaffe not have an aerobatics team?

The Luftwaffe has the aircraft, and the know-how, so why not? In fact, I have already created my own dream-team for the Luftwaffe:

Team Name: Der Fliegende Zirkus

Aircraft: Panavia Tornado (6)

Homebase: Cologne/Bonn, part of the Flugbereitschaft BMVg

The name, which translates “The Flying Circus”, refers to the World War One group of German pilots who were selected for their high skills, of which Manfred von Richtofen was the leader. The group was chivalrous, and militarily professional, reflecting, in my opinion, the best traditions of German military aviation as well as what an aerobatics team should want to reflect.

I chose the Panavia Tornado since it is the workhorse of the Luftwaffe as well as an excellent low-level performer, as that was its designed roll.

I chose to base the group in Cologne as a part of the Flugbereitschaft BMVg, which is the Luftwaffe unit which operates transport flights, VIP flights, and other special aviation duties. Thus, I believe this body would best operate an aerobatics team.

What do you think? Hope you enjoyed my idea!
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NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

Luftwaffe - Get An Aerobatics Team!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:11 pm

Quoting Vanguard737 (Thread starter):
Why does the German Luftwaffe not have an aerobatics team?

Because it's not feasible in Germany, that's why. Safety restrictions are tight, aerobatics are considered unnecessary, dangerous and costly stunts (which is at least not entirely wrong) and Germany is notoriously reluctant to "show flag".
I support the right to arm bears
 
columba
Posts: 5055
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

Luftwaffe - Get An Aerobatics Team!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:48 pm

The German navy once had an aerobatics team called "The Vikings" flying with two F-104 Starfighters.
Germany has no small trainer aircraft stationed in Germany the other aircrafts are not suited for the role in an aerobatics team. The Tornado is a great low level performer but as an airrcaft used in an aerobatics team not the best choice.
The F-4 is neither suited for that role, the Typhoon is to expensive and too big.
Maybe they should have used the Mig 29 for that, the best pilots of the Luftwaffe flew that bird......
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

Luftwaffe - Get An Aerobatics Team!

Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:43 pm

Since Ramstein, Aerobatics aren't that well regarded over here.
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4328
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

Luftwaffe - Get An Aerobatics Team!

Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:09 am

The Aerobatics team also had a rather bad end... 4 pilots died when they crashed into a coal mine close to Nörvenich (exactly where the Pope had the church service on the world youth day). 3 F104s followed the first one which was piloted by an US instructor, they flew close formation but got too close to the ground and crashed into the mine. As far as I know, they were never found.

Aerobatics are slowly getting accepted again in Germany, for example displays during the ILA are more common now. Real Air Shows had it hard when the Ramstein accident occurred in 1988. There are pictures of that accident at airliners.net. After hitting some airplanes, on of the airplanes flew directly into the crowd, killing and burning more than 70 people. This was a real shock and it still is hard to do aerobatics today.

Also, there is an official order by the German ministry of Defense that German airplanes may not take part in Air Shows because it is too expensive, that's why you usually only see static displays on such shows. For example, the Karup Airshow in Denmark showed a German Tornado and a German Phantom, but both did only static displays.

There are exceptions, though. The Eurofighter did a show in Austria in Zeltweg this year, but I guess this has something to do with the fact that Austria buys the Eurofighter (which is very surprising to me, btw).

So, don't expect German Air Shows, however with the new government it could be that we will see more displays again in the future.

Michael
 
Gary2880
Posts: 1856
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:52 pm

Luftwaffe - Get An Aerobatics Team!

Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:13 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 1):
Safety restrictions are tight

you have autobahns dont you?!  cheeky 

just jesting.
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4328
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

Luftwaffe - Get An Aerobatics Team!

Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:20 am

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 5):
you have autobahns dont you?!

Well yes, but they are actually safe. In fact, accident rates on the Autobahn are not higher than in other European countries, it's only people with yellow numberplates that are dangerous on the Autobahn  duck 
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: Luftwaffe - Get An Aerobatics Team!

Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:33 am

Quoting Vanguard737 (Thread starter):
I chose to base the group in Cologne as a part of the Flugbereitschaft BMVg, which is the Luftwaffe unit which operates transport flights, VIP flights, and other special aviation duties. Thus, I believe this body would best operate an aerobatics team.

CGN is about the worst place to base it. No infrastructure for Tornados there, furthermore it´s rather a civilian airport: Just imagine what the NIMBYs do when the Luftwaffe wants to base loud Tornados there...

Special aviation duties are performed at Manching/Ingolstadt (ETSI), mostly by the WTD 61. That´s were I would base it. 2nd best option would be any other airport with Tornados based there.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
vanguard737
Posts: 523
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2001 7:02 am

RE: Luftwaffe - Get An Aerobatics Team!

Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:30 am

Good point A342

Tschuess
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HT
Posts: 5857
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 6:20 am

RE: Luftwaffe - Get An Aerobatics Team!

Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:37 am

Quoting Racko (Reply 3):
Since Ramstein, Aerobatics aren't that well regarded over here.

While the terrible accident of the Frecce Tricolori was followed all over Europe, only Germany took the step to ban military multi-ship aerial displays. Strange ...
And so thousands of Germans travel abroad every year in order to watch a good aerobatic display ! And this figure does include me (been to Austria, U.K. and the U.S. this year) ...
Even a friend of mine, who was present on Ramstein AB when the a.m. accident happened, still does attendair shows !

BTW, does anybody still remember how many spectators an Open House at Ramstein AB used to get ? 500.000+ in a single day !

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 4):
The Eurofighter did a show in Austria in Zeltweg this year

Oh, that display was impressing.

Quoting A342 (Reply 7):
Quoting Vanguard737 (Thread starter):
I chose to base the group in Cologne as a part of the Flugbereitschaft BMVg, which is the Luftwaffe unit which operates transport flights, VIP flights, and other special aviation duties. Thus, I believe this body would best operate an aerobatics team.

CGN is about the worst place to base it. No infrastructure for Tornados there, furthermore it´s rather a civilian airport: Just imagine what the NIMBYs do when the Luftwaffe wants to base loud Tornados there..

One other place came to my mind instantly: Rostock-Laage ! While RLG has a modest amount of civil traffic, it´s located away from too many people around.
However, I don´t see a Display Team of the GAF taking shape ...
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
Contact_tower
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:05 am

RE: Luftwaffe - Get An Aerobatics Team!

Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:58 am

Quote:
While the terrible accident of the Frecce Tricolori was followed all over Europe, only Germany took the step to ban military multi-ship aerial displays. Strange ...

I'll bet, that the day the Red Arrows (god forbid) crash into the crowd at RIAT, displays with large formations are history in the UK as well. The same will probably be true with a team in any other country as well.

The Gripen crash in Stockholm stopped all displays over built up areas in Sweden
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Luftwaffe - Get An Aerobatics Team!

Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:37 am

Not to many years ago one of the Phantoms from Holloman put on a performance during an airshow in Ft.Worth.

Definately a rare treat.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
SCEagle
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:05 am

RE: Luftwaffe - Get An Aerobatics Team!

Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:05 am

NASCAR sometimes has crashes into the wall... audience members have even been injured... yet races continue.

Crowds at hockey games have been known to be hit by pucks... yet, hockey continues.

Alas, airshows are dangerous... oooooh.

I'd love to see an airshow in Germany. It'd be an excellent opportunity to demonstrate and rebuild some NATO relations, but that's perhaps another topic/forum.
 
columba
Posts: 5055
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Luftwaffe - Get An Aerobatics Team!

Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:35 pm

Quoting SCEagle (Reply 12):
I'd love to see an airshow in Germany. I

It is not like we don�t have any airshows at all.
The German Airforce flies displays as well but not that spectatcular then others but that may mostly result in the lack of the right equipment.
While all the others around us have F-16s, Mirages or Migs our
F-4Fs Phantoms and Tornados are both not the best planes for aerobatics.
They do some roles and fly bys the Tornados shows what he does best low level flights and after that they usually demonstrate a buddy-buddy refueling with a second Tornado.
The Migs gave an impressive show though maybe with the Eurofighter we will have a good display again. I am thinking of something familiar to the Dutch F-16 solo display.
At the last two Airshows in Berlin we even had to aerobatics teams. The Patrouille Swiss and the Patrouille France. Due to the strict rules here in Germany they did not fly their usual display but it is still great to watch.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong

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