AerospaceFan
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A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:18 am

Assuming that a future President of Europe (or European Union, or European Council -- I'm not sure which one applies these days) decides to purchase an exclusive new Presidential aircraft, wouldn't the A380 be an attractive option?

For that matter, wouldn't the prestige of a European Presidential A380 eclipse that of the current king of executive aircraft, Air Force One?

Would a U.S. President accept the idea that his own aircraft would no longer "rule the skies" as the world's largest, most prestigious, flying executive mansion?

Would the U.S. even purchase and convert an A380 or two for its own Presidential use?

Points to ponder.

A European Presidential A380 would also lend prestige to commercial A380's by association, I would think.

[Edited 2005-12-22 01:19:07]

[Edited 2005-12-22 01:21:58]
What's fair is fair.
 
zvezda
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:20 am

If I were the president of europe, I'd rather have an A350 than a WhaleJet.
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:23 am

No offense But i really don't think the size of the Presidential Aircraft matters much as far as the might of a country/its world status.....
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777D
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:23 am

I have to admit that bigger isn't always better, however it would be something that I would like to see. I would attract a tremendous amount of attention. This brings another point, is that a good thing to bring that much attention to a very influential position?
 
TheSonntag
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:23 am

This would not be politically feasible. The nogotiations on the EU budget showed already that it is extremely difficult to agree on anything already. Buying an A380 would make no sense.

An A330, A350 or A319CJ would be different.

Michael
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:24 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 1):
If I were the president of europe, I'd rather have an A350 than a WhaleJet

But think of all the room you would have on an A380 -- not just for you, but for all your entourage, and maybe even a limousine or two. Heck, maybe even a Presidential helicopter! An A380 could surely be fitted to allow such cargo to be easily disembarked.
What's fair is fair.
 
rwsea
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:25 am

Well the thing about the A380 is that many airports will not be configured for it. For instance, I don't think the "president" would want to be restricted to landing at places like LHR, NRT, etc. You can bet that the US would never purchase one for this purpose.

That said, I look forward to flying on the A380 one day, and I hope it is successful!
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:25 am

I dunno, not sure you'd fit the olympic size swimming pool into the 350

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
For that matter, wouldn't the prestige of a European Presidential A380 eclipse that of the current king of executive aircraft, Air Force One?

Don't be giving him ideas, WAIT you can call it EUJet hahaha

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Would the U.S. even purchase and convert an A380 or two for its own Presidential use?

never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever! ....... ever
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ikramerica
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:29 am

how about an A345E? 4 engines for safety from missile attacks and such, super long range in presidential trim, bigger than an A359.
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clickhappy
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:33 am

How would you get a helicopter, or a limo, into an A380? Through the tilt-up nose Big grin
 
IAH744
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:36 am

I don't think that would work out very well...

I'd rather have a gulfstream g550 than a "whale jet"




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zvezda
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:42 am

Quoting IAH744 (Reply 11):

I'd rather have a gulfstream g550 than a "whale jet"

I'm with you. Much faster and much better cabin atmosphere, plus they can land nearly anywhere.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:56 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
4 engines for safety from missile attacks and such

Missile attacks? If your aircraft is shot by missiles, I don't think it really matters how many engines are on it.  Wink
 
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airportugal310
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:00 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 13):
Missile attacks? If your aircraft is shot by missiles, I don't think it really matters how many engines are on it.

Probably one of the only smart comments here on A.Net

amen
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prebennorholm
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:01 am

First of all, there is no president of the EU. There is a chairman of the EU - rotating every six month between the prime ministers of the member states, at present Tony Blair, UK.

When not too long time ago it was Danish prime minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen, then he made pretty heavy use of a Challenger biz jet of which the Royal Danish Air Force has 3 which are mostly used for fishery patrol in the North Atlantic.

Ireland bought a new Learjet when last time they were in the chair.

Size doesn't matter. You just add more planes when one isn't enough. An A380 would be much too small for GWB.

When some 6-7 years back Bill Clinton visited our Queen, then he arrived on two VC-25A and three C-5B.

But those five planes were not enough for his journey. When he left Copenhagen, he went to Prague to visit president Vaclav Havel. At that time a few C-5s had already been in Prague for some time while the three C-5s in Copenhagen spent a day on packing the last baggage.

It's a myth that the US president just packs his stuff into Air Force One and goes out in the world. It's a lot more complicated than that. But when he goes on for instance 2 x VC-25A + 3 x C-5, then those five planes may take off from five different air bases in the USA.
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N328KF
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:02 am

There's no single European governmental figure that needs access to as much in the way of communications and other resources as does the sitting U.S. president, so I don't see any EU person needing an A380. I suspect we will find a lot of 747SPs replaced by them, though.  Wink
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Trvlr
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:07 am

A few countries already have aircraft (*technically*) larger than Air Force One. Junichiro Koizumi uses two 747-400s, and I'm sure there's a Gulf leader or two that has a 747-400 as well.

Aaron G.
 
zvezda
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:09 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 13):
Missile attacks? If your aircraft is shot by missiles, I don't think it really matters how many engines are on it.

Actually, the maximum damage that a shoulder-fired SAM can do to an airliner is damage an engine.
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:20 am

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 15):
First of all, there is no president of the EU. There is a chairman of the EU - rotating every six month between the prime ministers of the member states, at present Tony Blair, UK.

At the Moment the president of the EU is actually Tony Blair, the president of the EU is the leader of the country that holds the presidency of the EU at that time. We also have presidents of the European Commission, José Manuel Barroso and the European Parliament, Josep Borrell i Fontelles.

So maybe they need a fleet of 380's

http://europa.eu.int
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prebennorholm
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:20 am

BTW, among Bill Clinton's "baggage" when he visited the Danish Queen was three Boeing CH-47 Chinook helicopters.

Going from CPH the 25 miles to the royal summer cottage he used all three of them. They arrived on the royal lawn almost simultaneously, but from three different directions.

It was a rather noisy arrival, also because the royal dog began barking when those three Chinooks came in from all corners.

Maybe that was his way to kill the rather high local taxi costs.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
aileron11
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:29 am

I don't think that the US government will buy an aircraft from another country for the President of the United States. Think about why they would do that when we have Boeing right here in the states.
Jersey Lou
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:30 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Would the U.S. even purchase and convert an A380 or two for its own Presidential use?

This would never happen. For the same reason you will never see a Rolls Royce as a US presidential limo. It would be political suicide for a U.S. president to chose another country's aircraft over an American one.
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:32 am

Quoting Aileron11 (Reply 21):
I don't think that the US government will buy an aircraft from another country for the President of the United States. Think about why they would do that when we have Boeing right here in the states.

Right... look into the tanker project.
-AJR-
 
AirCop
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:34 am

Well, the new Marine one will be from another country.
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:06 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 24):
Well, the new Marine one will be from another country.

Probably because the US does not make a suitable alternative.
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levg79
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:23 am

US government is not allowed to purchase anything from abroad if it can be purchased from a US company. Therefore, you'll never have American president flying around in a foreign airplane, whether it's Airbus, Embraer, or Tupolev.

Other governments, unlike USA, do not have such a policy (I'm not speaking for all of them) therefore it might be possible for European leaders to be flying around in Boeings. Russia for example is one such country. Although president Putin flies around in IL-96, he is being driven around in a Mercedes. And please don't start with the myth that he's driving his Volga. That's for show-off purposes only.

Leo.
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hiflyer
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:24 am

For the US president the 380 is impractical due to size and inability of majority of airports at most US cities to handle it. That fact almost sunk going to the 747 back when Reagan was ordering it and was part of the reason that the smaller wing 200 style was chosen over the 400. Other reasons were there as well such as emp protection better with the classic but size was a major concern during the selection process. The more airports you can put that blue and white paint job into the more political mileage you will get.
 
PHXinterrupted
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:29 am

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 15):
It's a myth that the US president just packs his stuff into Air Force One and goes out in the world. It's a lot more complicated than that. But when he goes on for instance 2 x VC-25A + 3 x C-5, then those five planes may take off from five different air bases in the USA.

A myth? Maybe in Europe. Americans are well aware of the numerous planes and weeks of planning it requires for the President to fly anywhere, even within the US.
Keepin' it real.
 
Klaus
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:35 am

Apart from all the other arguments: The primary problem airports today have with the A380 are with their terminals which state visitors generally don't use anyway. So an A380 for that purpose could use a lot more airports than a "civilian" one packed to the gills with commercial passengers.
 
474218
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:45 am

You can fly any where in the EU in under two hours, and visiting EU country is the only thing the EU President would ever do, because he has no authority over the member states foreign policy. So all international flights would be by the Prime Minister, Chancellor, etc. of each EU state. If by some way the EU was to buy a A380/350/340/330/320/319/318 and make it EU1. The Prime Ministers, Chancellors, etc. would be always be fighting over who was going to get to use the EU1. That could lead the break up of the EU.
 
DarthRandall
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:13 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
wouldn't the A380 be an attractive option?

Probably, but I imagine something a bit smaller like an A340 would probably be more practical. How much space does an executive officer really need?

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
For that matter, wouldn't the prestige of a European Presidential A380 eclipse that of the current king of executive aircraft, Air Force One?

True enough.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Would a U.S. President accept the idea that his own aircraft would no longer "rule the skies" as the world's largest, most prestigious, flying executive mansion?

That depends on the president. If he's the type who has an inferiority complex and thinks he has something to prove, then yes.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Would the U.S. even purchase and convert an A380 or two for its own Presidential use?

The 380 does have a few U.S.-made parts, so I guess it could be justified that way. Still, I seriously doubt it.

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 2):
No offense But i really don't think the size of the Presidential Aircraft matters much as far as the might of a country/its world status.....

It's how you use it!

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 7):
I dunno, not sure you'd fit the olympic size swimming pool into the 350

Or a hockey rink. That would be sick.

Quoting PRINAIR (Reply 8):
The A380 is delayed for deliveries, under performing (so far) and ugly. Gee, just like most governments! Perfect for a head of state.

I know it's true, but you shouldn't talk about our economy like that. Those tax cuts will start jumpstarting Wallstreet any day now!

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 10):
How would you get a helicopter, or a limo, into an A380? Through the tilt-up nose

Burn!

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 15):
An A380 would be much too small for GWB.

Even the flight suit didn't do the trick.

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 15):
It's a myth that the US president just packs his stuff into Air Force One and goes out in the world. It's a lot more complicated than that. But when he goes on for instance 2 x VC-25A + 3 x C-5, then those five planes may take off from five different air bases in the USA.

That's true when the president has a complicated itinerary and a variety of different missions that he is trying to complete in a short period of time. Ah, I remember those days.

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 26):
US government is not allowed to purchase anything from abroad if it can be purchased from a US company. Therefore, you'll never have American president flying around in a foreign airplane, whether it's Airbus, Embraer, or Tupolev.

I wouldn't say "not allowed." They just don't. Here's hoping there's a KC-330 in the future to challenge that tradition.
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EMBQA
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:23 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Would the U.S. even purchase and convert an A380 or two for its own Presidential use?

The short answer NO..!! US Government contracts to purchase all have a clause in them that a fixed percentage of the purchase must be built in the United States, which would eliminate Airbus from ever being considered.

Also, try a search this one is not new to A.net and has been brought up before.
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magyar
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:35 pm

Why should the EU president be like the US president?
Even if the EU will ever be as powerful as the US is!
I would certainly appreciate a president who travels
cheap and low profile regardless of the power s/he has,
and certainly cannot stand the Dubya-style "the
whole world must go standstill because I am coming"
type travel.
 
474218
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:42 pm

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 26):
US government is not allowed to purchase anything from abroad if it can be purchased from a US company. Therefore, you'll never have American president flying around in a foreign airplane----.

The new Marine 1 helicopter (for the Presidental Fleet) is the US101 a European design with major subassemblies built in the UK, and Italy, but will be assembled in Texas.

Plus these foreign aircraft already in service with the US military:

The UV-18A Twin Otter made in Canada
The C-23A Sherpa, (Shorts 330) made in Ireland
C27 Spartan (G222) made in Italy
 
sprout5199
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:54 pm

I can't believe how much penis envy the EU has. The current "AF1" was bought buy Pres. Ronnie in the 1980s. It wasn't bought because it was the biggest but because the govt. needed something bigger. Look how long they flew the 707s. Pres. Bush the 2nd has nothing to do with what aircraft he flies on. If he did don't you think he would have landed on the carrier in a Tomcat instead of a hoover? And as far as how many aircraft goes with him, it is up to the USSS, due to what equipment they need.
Even if the EU did get a A380(whalejet---is a good name for it, considering it comes from a company named "AIRBUS"), Nothing says power like AF1. Have to admit the colors are the BEST.

Sorry for the rant

Dan in Jupiter
 
DarthRandall
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:34 pm

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 35):
I can't believe how much penis envy the EU has.

How did this thread become so freudian? Sometimes a WhaleJet is just a WhaleJet.
Ninjas can kill anyone they want! Ninjas cut off heads all the time and don't even think twice about it.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:45 pm

^^I loved the crack about the upturned nose, upstream.  Wink

The way I visualized it was that a Presidential helicopter bay could be incorporated into the rear of the A380, complete with a special lifting mechanism to load the helicopter that would allow it to access the bay through a lift-up style door. But maybe this would be too much even for a A380 to handle. It's fun to think about, though.
What's fair is fair.
 
halls120
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:29 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Would the U.S. even purchase and convert an A380 or two for its own Presidential use?

When hell freezes over, and pigs fly.  Wink
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
manni
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:59 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Would a U.S. President accept the idea that his own aircraft would no longer "rule the skies" as the world's largest, most prestigious, flying executive mansion?

Wether your president accepts it or not but when the Emperor of Japan is out, he takes his executive 747-400's.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Assuming that a future President of Europe (or European Union, or European Council -- I'm not sure which one applies these days) decides to purchase an exclusive new Presidential aircraft, wouldn't the A380 be an attractive option?

Perhaps it's acceptable in the US (hope you like it, 'cause you're paying), but I doubt Europeans would be happy to see the European commision spending money on such gadgets. Over here it's about quality, not quantity.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 16):
There's no single European governmental figure that needs access to as much in the way of communications and other resources as does the sitting U.S. president,

Your president could drop dead tomorrow and the world wouldn't stand still for a second, no matter how many resources he thinks he needs to have acces to.
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AJRfromSYR
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:03 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 40):
Your president could drop dead tomorrow and the world wouldn't stand still for a second, no matter how many resources he thinks he needs to have acces to.

Interesting statement...
-AJR-
 
deaphen
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:12 pm

The thing is .. its simple economics, the president of the USA would never be caught dead owning an airbus. I mean it would just go against the principles of capitalism of the USA. Even though it may be better, it will definately be an ego hassle.
Thats my opinion, atleast the present dubya would do that... dunno about the saner ones which will hopefully come around for the next term!  Smile
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columba
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:40 pm

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 35):
I can't believe how much penis envy the EU has. The current "AF1" was bought buy Pres. Ronnie in the 1980s. It wasn't bought because it was the biggest but because the govt. needed something bigger

1. Most of the Europeans here have posted the opposit, that they do not want
a A380 as a Presidential aircraft.

2.The question of the A380 being a suitable Presidential aircraft was asked by an American not by a European user - so there is no "penis envy" on EU´s side -and I don´t believe this question was the intention of this thread in the first place.

3. I don´t know if this is a urban legend but I have read the following story in an article about the Air Force 1 that has to do that the current "AF 1" or VC 25 was bought because of its size. So don´t flame if it is not true :
The story is that there was a G7 summit and that Mr.Reagan was not very pleased that he had to fly with the old 707 while Monsieur Mitterand had arrived with the Concorde.
It is said to be that he said since he can not have the fastet plane he will have the biggest plane.
George Bush his former Vice President was not very pleased with that decision . As he was elected president he traveled a lot by train within the States because he does not wanted to fly with the huge fuel gazzeling 747 while he is doing major cut backs that affected the American people.

[Edited 2005-12-22 10:02:46]
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mdsh00
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:07 pm

Quoting Magyar (Reply 33):
and certainly cannot stand the Dubya-style "the
whole world must go standstill because I am coming"

News flash, US presidents before and after GWB have and will continue to mess up air traffic when AF1 comes into town. I don't like the president either but he has no responsibility in this matter. Blame it on the Secret Service if you must.

Quoting Deaphen (Reply 47):
I know its just the way things are over there and i respect that alot, but ignorance is a strong word, which i think that no one who voted for the present idiot or didnt vote at all.. can use. and i am NOT generalising or pointing fingers!

You're probably right. This is why I read more international news.
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Pyrex
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:43 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 13):
Missile attacks? If your aircraft is shot by missiles, I don't think it really matters how many engines are on it.



Quoting Zvezda (Reply 18):
Actually, the maximum damage that a shoulder-fired SAM can do to an airliner is damage an engine.

Well, not exactly (modern SAMs could still knock an aircraft out of the sky with a bit of luck) but mostly yes, as has been demonstrated by the DHL A300 in Baghdad.

Quoting DarthRandall (Reply 31):
Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 7):
I dunno, not sure you'd fit the olympic size swimming pool into the 350

Or a hockey rink. That would be sick.

Why not both? Install a few liquid nitrogen tanks in the cargo hold able to freeze an olympic size swimming pool into an ice rink. I know that is how I would configure my A380 if I had one. Big grin
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
whitehatter
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:07 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Assuming that a future President of Europe (or European Union, or European Council -- I'm not sure which one applies these days) decides to purchase an exclusive new Presidential aircraft, wouldn't the A380 be an attractive option?

Won't ever happen. The President of the EU would use chartered aircraft or loaned national ones if anything.

Buying one for the EU president would be political suicide. Besides which an EU President holds a lot less power than the US president and certainly no major military position. The whole justification of Air Force One is because Dubya is Commander in Chief of the US military.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
keesje
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:41 am

Maybe the Japanese, Chinese, Indian president or Emir in a few years.

LHT is already offering interiors for the A380 VVIP
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
bennett123
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:37 am

Actually the A300 was not the first airliner to survive a SAM strike, there was an AZ DC8 about 30 years ago.

GWB will never have an A380, even if B747 wings fell off on a regular basis.

The President of the EU will never have an A380, because there will never be a President of Europe.

The best candidates for a VVIP A380 re Arab.
 
whitehatter
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RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:57 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 47):
The best candidates for a VVIP A380 re Arab.

hasn't there already been an order placed for one?
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
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N328KF
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:34 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 39):
Your president could drop dead tomorrow and the world wouldn't stand still for a second, no matter how many resources he thinks he needs to have acces to.

I have detected a distinct vitrolic trend in your posts.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: A380 As Presidential Aircraft?

Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:51 pm

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 47):
GWB will never have an A380, even if B747 wings fell off on a regular basis.

I know it's all about willy waving, but does anyone really need an aircraft of the size of a 744 nowadays for Government work?

After all communications equipment is much smaller in these days of miniaturisation. If it was a clean sheet exercise with no precedent I would think a US Presidential aircraft could be easily accomodated by a 772LR or similar frame, or maybe an MD-11 for redundancy. Certainly nothing any larger.
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