KPDX
Topic Author
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Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:32 am

Wow this has gotta suck! And also note the guy how he pushes the Blackhawk back over, are they really that lite?

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photoga...eos/2006-HSL_Roll_Over__Short_.wmv


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ClearedDirect
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:06 am

Looks like there is some considerable wind blowing as well -
I can only imagine the paperwork that this incident will create.
 
TIMC
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:18 am

I think that video must be faked somehow.

If that was really filmed on an aircraft carrier, how did the cameraman keep his hand so steady with all the swell?

It really looks a bit dodgy to me, can't quite put my finger on why..
 
luisca
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting KPDX (Thread starter):
Wow this has gotta suck! And also note the guy how he pushes the Blackhawk back over, are they really that lite?

I gues the blackhawk was standing on just one wheel, he was just fightin the wind to move the CG back to a place were it would rest on 2 wings, not carriying the entire blackhawk's weight on his arms. Anyway, what he did was stupid, he could have been killed, and maybe it wouldnt have tipped over if he hadn't tried to move it back into place, notice how it had more momentum after it was pushed.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
KPDX
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting TIMC (Reply 2):
If that was really filmed on an aircraft carrier, how did the cameraman keep his hand so steady with all the swell?

It looks like its a cam mounted on the carrier..


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visityyj
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:26 am

Quoting TIMC (Reply 2):
how did the cameraman keep his hand so steady with all the swell?

There is no camerman, it's a CCTV camera fixed to the ship so it rolls with the ship giving a 'steady' image.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:37 am

A few points of note...

1.. It is NOT a Blackhawk.., but the Navy version called the Seahawk.
2.. It is NOT on a Carrier, but looks like an Arlegh Burke Class DDG Destroyer.

If you noticed the engine plug streams blowing in the wind, they were in pretty heavy winds - seas. I was shocked they were even getting ready to launch. Another point to note... they were not using the arresting system. This is a cable system that allows the helicopter to land on teh deck in rolling seas. The helicopter drops a hooh that locks into the track on the deck and pulls the helicopter down, locking it to the deck.

[Edited 2006-01-11 23:44:10]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
ImperialAero
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:38 am

Are you guys seriously suggesting that the chap managed to make any impact on the motion of the 7 tonne Blackhawk as it rolled on the deck, due to the (obvious) gale force winds that were causing it to roll...

If you are Luisca, you're deluding yourself...

The helicopter rocks back because the wind drops, not because the guy makes a feeble attempt to push it over.
ICURFC - Who Is Sylvia?
 
KPDX
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:22 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
1.. It is NOT a Blackhawk.., but the Navy version called the Seahawk.

Oh well excuse me!  Yeah sure Its just another variant, and plus thats beside the question..

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
2.. It is NOT on a Carrier, but looks like an Arlegh Burke Class DDG Destroyer.

That wasnt the question, read again, it says "Are Sea(  Yeah sure)hawks that lite?"


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Gatorman96
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:30 am

The ground crew had nothing to do with returning the helicopter to its level stance. The wind subsided and the copter fell back on its own weight. Can't imagine the hell that crew went through when they had to report to thier superiors!
 
EMBQA
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:58 am

I'd say, rolling seas and high winds contributed to this.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
N754PR
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:19 pm

Blackhawk/Seahawk....... Military
Aircraft carrier..... Military


WRONG FORUM
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
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beau222
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:11 pm

Looks like all the covers are on the copter why would they not have it strapped down. Guess hind sight is 20/20
 
leothedog
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:49 am

Quoting N754PR (Reply 11):
Blackhawk/Seahawk....... Military
Aircraft carrier..... Military


WRONG FORUM

*Handing N754PR a chill pill and a glass of water*
I've got things to see and people to do.
 
Devil505x
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting TIMC (Reply 2):
I think that video must be faked somehow.

If that was really filmed on an aircraft carrier, how did the cameraman keep his hand so steady with all the swell?

I feel the same way. In addition how could a helicopter weighing in at a couple of tons tip over while there are several crew members who do not appear at all to be affected by the ships movement. Could the heli be some kind of mockup for possibly training the ship's personnel in helicopter operations.
 
aztec01
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:02 am

Doubt very highly it is a 'mockup'.

Couple of observations:

The wind is very definitely blowing the clothing of the crew as well as the 'remove before flight' pins on the Hawk. The crew provide a significantly less profile to the wind so they didn't get blown overboard.

After it tips over the wind still pushes it, ever so slightly, toward the railing.

A second crewman, apparently aware of the foolishness, urges/pulls/convinces the first crewman back after he tried to right the Hawk

At one point lights start flashing on and off on the tailplane. No, it's not a mockup.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:33 am

I talked with a fellow co-worker today who is also a UH-60 Crew Chief in the Guard. I was told that gusts at 15kts require the blades be secured... gusts at 30kts require the helicopter to be chained down.... and if it's light on fuel.. look out.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
JohnM
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:44 am

No such wind restrictions apply to a plan vanilla UH-60. The rotor system may start and/or stop at wind speed up to 45 knots. So if the wind is 40 kts, go ahead and start your Hawk. The aircraft is a stable machine on the ground in windy conditions, as long as the tail wheel is locked and brakes set. I can't comment about shipboard conditions however. I've seen anti flap assemblies (on the main rotor head) broken from high winds, and the only other isssue was a broken tail lock pin from winds. The aircraft stayed on it's wheels just fine.
 
MissedApproach
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:37 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
A few points of note...

1.. It is NOT a Blackhawk.., but the Navy version called the Seahawk.
2.. It is NOT on a Carrier, but looks like an Arlegh Burke Class DDG Destroyer

Both correct.
Major difference is the Seahawk has the tailwheel near the back of the cabin vs. at the end of the tail. I'm not sure, but this may slightly raise the CofG while the helo is on it's wheels compared to the Blackhawk.
Also, carriers have a clear deck & sail directly into the wind during launch & recovery. Destroyers sail with the wind about 30 degrees to either side, since the superstructure would create unsafe & unpredictable turbulence if they had the wind directly on the bow.
If you look at the video, you can see two tracks on the deck where the hauldown system that EMBQA mentioned would travel while the helo was moved onto the deck from the hangar. I have no idea why it wasn't used, unless it was broken.
Could they have been doing some sort of maintenance checks that required an engine start?
Can you hear me now?
 
WrenchBender
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:58 am

They are carrying out a 'Straightening' which entails the moving of the helo with the Beartrap (RAST) system and the Tail Guide Winches (TGW). it could be an OHP class frigate (FFH7) or an Arliegh Burke [Flt 2](DDG51)

Look at the Video at 200% and you can see the TGWs on either side of the helo (from the deck edge hooked on to the tail) and the fact the helo is traversing aft leads me to believe they were straightening the helo outside the deck motion limits (3 deg pitch and 10 deg roll). The winds may have had some impact but deck motion is more likely without seeing the horizon it is hard to tell.
Some links about how it works
http://www.readyayeready.com/timeline/1960s/beartrap/
http://www.indaltech.com/products/rast/rast.htm

WrenchBender

[Edited 2006-01-13 03:05:44]
Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
 
EMBQA
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:02 pm

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 19):
it could be an OHP class frigate (FFH7) or an Arliegh Burke [Flt 2](DDG51)

It's not an FFG-7 Perry Class Frigate as it has two arresting tracks. Perry Class Frigates only have one. My money is on a (Flight II) Arliegh Burke Class Destroyer. 'Flight II' is just the second generation class of the Destroyer were they added the Helo hangar.

My first 'real job' out of high school was working for the Maritime Engineering and Design company that designed the DDG-51 class.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
L-188
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:17 pm

Quoting Visityyj (Reply 5):
There is no camerman, it's a CCTV camera fixed to the ship so it rolls with the ship giving a 'steady' image.

I'll look for it but last year I put up a video taken from the hoist winch of a USCG Jayhawk looking straight down at a hoist in the basket. It looks like the helicopter is rising up and down dramaticly, but in fact the helicopter is hovering at a constant height, and what you are seeing is the tops and troughs of the waves. Same thing is happening here.

Quoting ImperialAero (Reply 7):
The helicopter rocks back because the wind drops, not because the guy makes a feeble attempt to push it over.

Impulse vs. training....instinct won in this case.

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 9):
The wind subsided and the copter fell back on its own weight

Wasn't the wind, it was the rolling of the ship in the sea.

Quoting Devil505x (Reply 14):
crew members who do not appear at all to be affected by the ships movement. Could

Just another day on the sea, the more time you spend out there the less it affects you.

Quoting MissedApproach (Reply 18):
Major difference is the Seahawk has the tailwheel near the back of the cabin vs. at the end of the tail. I'm not sure, but this may slightly raise the CofG while the helo is on it's wheels compared to the Blackhawk.

I would say yes, I was in a Blackhawk unit in the Army, and seen a lot of USCG Jayhawks up close (Same tailwheel) and the naval versions definately sit with their arse up in the air.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Woodreau
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:52 pm

Looks like the video came off the HOSS flight deck camera, it's mounted to the superstructure, not a handheld cam corder.

The flight deck is a FFG-7 frigate flight deck.

There are supposed to be pitch and roll limitations of what can be done at certain sea states. At certain trip points, the aircraft should have been secured for "heavy weather."

It looks like it was only held in place by the beartrap and it wasn't griped down properly. To me, it looks like the maintenance night crew got complacent, and just thought it was another night for maintenance, pushed the helicopter out the back for maintenance.

The ship driver will probably get some blame in all this as well even though he has no control over sea state, he'll get the blame for allowing the aircraft to go unsecured on deck.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:07 pm

Quoting Woodreau (Reply 22):
The flight deck is a FFG-7 frigate flight deck.

I stand corrected. After a second, better look it is indeed a Perry Class Frigate flight deck. I forgot they had two separate arresting tracks. It would be interesting to find out what really happened though....
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
WrenchBender
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:34 pm

Quoting Woodreau (Reply 22):
The ship driver will probably get some blame in all this as well even though he has no control over sea state, he'll get the blame for allowing the aircraft to go unsecured on deck.

Along with the LSO and the Deck Director. Someone on the bridge or in the Ops room knew what was happening because thats were the CCTV is controlled from and the camera followed the A/C as it rolled over.

WrenchBender
Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
 
jush
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:05 pm

Quoting TIMC (Reply 2):
I think that video must be faked somehow.

If that was really filmed on an aircraft carrier, how did the cameraman keep his hand so steady with all the swell?

It really looks a bit dodgy to me, can't quite put my finger on why..

I concur. For me the whole thing looks like a model or a test research or something else.

Doesn't look real. Looks even indoor.

Regds
jush
There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
 
checksixx
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:26 am

Jush...I hope your kidding...there are people inside the helicopter that you can see on the video and if it was testing..no one would be inside it or allowed to approach it. Its clearly real.

-Check
 
SlamClick
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:17 pm

Am I really the first person to notice the cable pulling it over from beyond the left side frameline?

It looks like a training film being made.

How do you think the cameraman knew to zoom in at just that moment?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
L-188
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:29 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 27):
Am I really the first person to notice the cable pulling it over from beyond the left side frameline?

Yeah I think you were.

But I think that might be a tie down rope for the rotor blade.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
checksixx
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Sun Jan 15, 2006 3:12 am

No-one here must know how to read very well. THE CAMERA IS A FIXED CAMERA. End of story. And yes, there are cables attached to the helicopter midway back near its center of gravity. What they are DEFINATELY NOT doing, is making some kind of training film.

-Check
 
WrenchBender
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 27):
Am I really the first person to notice the cable pulling it over from beyond the left side frameline?



Quoting L-188 (Reply 28):
Yeah I think you were.

But I think that might be a tie down rope for the rotor blade

Doesn't anyone actually read what has already been posted.

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 19):
They are carrying out a 'Straightening' which entails the moving of the helo with the Beartrap (RAST) system and the Tail Guide Winches (TGW). it could be an OHP class frigate (FFH7) or an Arliegh Burke [Flt 2](DDG51)

I may be a dumb Canadian zoomie, but I have spent 7 years working aboard Canadian Navy frigates and destroyers with this equipment.

WrenchBender
Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
 
MissedApproach
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:37 am

After watching the clip a few more times, I noticed the collar for the hauldown system is under the helicopter as it rolls over, & it appears to be travelling towards the stern. But I have to ask, isn't this accident the sort of thing the system should prevent? Is it "one size fits all", or do they have different ratings for different helos (SH-2/SH-3/SH-60)?

Quoting JohnM (Reply 17):
No such wind restrictions apply to a plan vanilla UH-60. The rotor system may start and/or stop at wind speed up to 45 knots.

Presumably it's the same for the Seahawk/Jaywawk, since the rotor system is the same. Does anyone have any idea what the wind speeds were? Can you have high sea states with low wind speeds?
Can you hear me now?
 
EMBQA
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting JohnM (Reply 17):
No such wind restrictions apply to a plan vanilla UH-60. The rotor system may start and/or stop at wind speed up to 45 knots.

Please show me where I said it was restricted from flying in those wind conditions...??? Only that on the ramp it must be secured under those conditions...
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:31 am

Ok, I know this has been stated already, but this is NOT a Black Hawk. And note, it's two words, not one. This is a Sea Hawk. Sorry, but I never like it when my squid brethren are compared to us.  Wink

Quoting MissedApproach (Reply 18):
Major difference is the Seahawk has the tailwheel near the back of the cabin vs. at the end of the tail. I'm not sure, but this may slightly raise the CofG while the helo is on it's wheels compared to the Blackhawk.

That is hardly the biggest difference. If anything, the UH-60 Black Hawk has more in common with the Air Force's Pave Hawks, than the Sea Hawks. The SH-60s have sonobouys and underwater sonar capabilities. They have vastly different interior layouts, the engines are more robust, the aircraft is heavier than a UH-60, the weapon systems are vastly different, they have 10x as many sensors on board, the crew windows are not present, the cabin access doors are smaller, etc... (and don't quote me, but I think the SH-60s have less troop carrying abilities).

Now to the video:

One thing that I immediately noticed was the the engine inlet debris pads are still in the air inlets. This indicates to me that the aircraft was not starting its run-up. During preflight, you remove all covers, pads, tie-downs (including pitot tube covers, inlet pads, exhaust covers, etc...) So this aircraft was not starting up.

Second, the the ties on the inlet pads are blowing at a 90 degree crosswind angle. So this ship was not sailing into the wind, nor was it sailing at 30 degrees. The wind was straight off the side of the ship.

Third, the aircaft "bounces" a few times, and when it finally rolls over, it remains fairly static. You can tell that there is still a tie-down cable connected on the right side of the helicopter, but not on the left side. That is why it flips over, but does not really move anywhere on the deck.

Forth, yes the wind can indeed flip a SH-60 over. If the wind is coming from the side of the helicopter, the entire profile of that aircraft acts as a giant sail. The wind will push that hawk around and make it want to "weathervain" into the direction of the wind.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
JohnM
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RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:46 am

EMBQA,
You might have misunderstood my reply. First rotor tiedowns are not required @ 15 kts on the UH-60. They are only required when wind conditions are projected to exceed 45 kts, or for parking for a long period of time. It is almost universal that they are installed for overnight parking for example. You got some bad info from the guy you know, hey everybody makes mistakes. No biggie. The 45 knot restriction can't be ignored to go fly for example. If the wind is 50 kts, it's a no go to remove the tie downs, or to start the rotor system turning. The -10 (operators manual) doesn't require aircraft tie downs at 30 kts either. My point is that if a 15 kt restriction applied, it couldn't be ignored just because somebody wanted to fly. If that was the case, there would be many days of no flys!

I was impressed in the video that the main rotor blades didn't fail the first time the Hawk rolled. The second time they couldn't hang in there.

John
 
WrenchBender
Posts: 1662
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:59 am

RE: Video Of A Blackhawk Rollover On A Carrier

Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:28 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 33):
You can tell that there is still a tie-down cable connected on the right side of the helicopter, but not on the left side.

Take a closer look, approx 4 feet aft of the forward 'T' Line you can see the tail guide winch pulley on the ships port side. Once the helo comes to rest you can see the port side tail guide winch cable bisecting the circle in the aft 'T' Line.
Those winch cables are not a/c tiedowns, we use chains to secure a/c at sea.
It appears the beartrap was traversing aft, got hung up on something, then appears to move forward just before the helo rolls over and then once the helo comes to rest it moves aft again quite quickly. So either the main probe has broken or been pulled out of the trap by the roll over.

WrenchBender
Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......

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