columba
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New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:51 pm

According to the German newspaper "Frankfurter Rundschau" the newly elected goverment is planing to acquire new aircraft for the "Flugbereitschaft". It is planed to buy four aircrafts for the use of short and medium haul flights. The aircrafts should cost around 20 Million Euro each.
http://www.f-r.de/_inc/_multifunktio...cker&loc=29&cnt=787672&src=0&page=
(Link in German)


I guess these planes are meant as a Challenger replacement, after the incident with the former Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer politicians from all parties demanded new aircrafts because many considered the Challengers as unsafe.
Anyway the intersting questions is what planes will be acquired ? - I love this speculations threads  Wink -
I could think of newly build Challengers or even the Global Express by Bombardier, the Falcon 900 or 2000, a Gulfstream or an Embraer 145 like the Belgian Air Force uses.
Is the Dornier 328Jet still being build ? Because this would be my favorit choice . The aircraft would be build in Germany, perfect for short and medium hauls, has a bigger cabin then the other business jets and last but not least it is build in Germany.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
A319XFW
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:11 pm

Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
I guess these planes are meant as a Challenger replacement, after the incident with the former Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer politicians from all parties demanded new aircrafts because many considered the Challengers as unsafe.

What was the incident with Joschka Fischer?

Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
I could think of newly build Challengers or even the Global Express by Bombardier, the Falcon 900 or 2000, a Gulfstream or an Embraer 145 like the Belgian Air Force uses.

Would the Global Express fit into the €20M price-tag? But I guess each country associated with 'their' aircraft will try and tout them to the Luftwaffe!
 
columba
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:34 pm

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 1):
What was the incident with Joschka Fischer?

I am not 100 % sure but if I remember correctly it was an engine fire shortly after take-off in Berlin-Tegel. The media covered it pretty dramatically especially the yellow press which you can always read in the Berlin Metro trains  Wink
I do remember the reaction of Fischer in the media though, as he said to Schroeder and Struck what had to happen until the jets will finally be replaced or must his coffin first stand in the hall way of the Foreign Ministry untill the aircrafts will be replaced.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
PADSpot
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:12 pm

IIRC we discussed this before, even though is was more theoretical at that time. My guess are a bunch of Falcon 2000EXs as they are an appropriate replace for the Challengers because

they fit into the 20m Euro price limit (was it 18m for the green airplane??? I think so ...),
they excel the old CL6s in range, space and economics
and they are an European/French product.

My guess is 3-4 airplanes, because they don't have to replace them on a 1to1 basis and don't really need the airplane to also fit the MedEvac role. (Last time a single German Soldier was a seriously wounded abroad they used a A310 anyway ...)

G550, Global Expresses and alike will not be bought because, whenever German Politicians fly out that far they usually carry a bigger entourage with them OR they are unimportant to an extent that they don't mind a technical stopover ...


Jan
 
columba
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:59 pm

Looks like it will be additional Challengers:

http://www.moz.de/index.php/Moz/Arti...gory/Nachrichten/id/96753%5B/quote
(in German)
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Pyrex
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:22 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 2):
I do remember the reaction of Fischer in the media though, as he said to Schroeder and Struck what had to happen until the jets will finally be replaced or must his coffin first stand in the hall way of the Foreign Ministry untill the aircrafts will be replaced.

Typical "Green" politician...
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
NoUFO
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:05 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 5):
Typical "Green" politician...

What's so typically "green" here? A cabin filled with smoke isn't exactly funny.

BTW:
1 aircraft
2 aircraft
1,001 aircraft
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Pyrex
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:10 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 6):
What's so typically "green" here?

The fact that they are constantly attacking any form of transportation but when it comes to transporting the party leader they demand a brand new business jet (I don't know what age the previous ones had but a Challenger can't be that old - an engine problem can happen to every aircraft).
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
columba
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:23 pm

The first Challengers are from 1986.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
A342
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 8):
The first Challengers are from 1986.

Still, they´re fine and can fly at least another 10 years. And IIRC, they´re in the process of being fitted with expensive cockpit improvements !
Those politicians are so silly, those ones who want new jets should be flown in Transalls !
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Oryx
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:05 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 4):
Looks like it will be additional Challengers:

The Seuddeutsche (big German newspaper) yesterday mentioned a capacity of something like 50 VIPs "to fill the gap between the Challengers and the A310". Sounds more like A318/319 VIPs.
 
fvtu134
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:29 pm

Quoting Oryx (Reply 10):
Sounds more like A318/319 VIPs.

Which are of course built in Germany... I'm sure Humbert will make a few telephone calls as well.

FVTu134
who decided that a Horizon should be HORIZONtal???
 
columba
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:32 pm

Would be great if they choose the A318 Elite...........
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
A319XFW
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 12):
Would be great if they choose the A318 Elite...........

Please not the A318 Elite..... Reasons to remain unsaid! Big grin
A319CJ is a bigger aircraft and can fly further (and is in current production).....
 
CX747
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:23 am

What type of competition was used for this selection? Where other aircraft besides the Challenger considered? How come Cessna wasn't contacted? Do the Germans not like American products? Why wasn't there a fly off between these aircraft? I smell something foul. Oh wait thats only when the USAF buys aicraft.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
NoUFO
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:24 am

CX747, Tone down a little. Right now, the government merely considers acquiring new aircraft.
Usually an open competitive bidding is started which is in fact international. I don't know whether or not a new bidding is required if the government plans to build up a stock of aircraft that once won the competition.

That said, the Challenger is an American product, even a north American.
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CX747
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:19 pm

Just having fun. I really put that out there to see if anyone would bring up a possible A330 tanker purchase  Wink I hope you boys purchase whatever the heck you want! In my personal opinion, some Business Jet A319s would look really nice.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
columba
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:00 pm

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 13):
A319CJ is a bigger aircraft and can fly further (and is in current production).....

Sure the A318 Elite is smaller and can´t fly not that long as the A319CJ
but the A319 CJ could make the A310 obsolete  Wink
The demand is a new small and medium haul aircraft and not a new longhaul aircraft which you would have when buying the A319CJ.
So in that perspective the A318 Elite would be more likely then the A319CJ, anyway I still believe it will be additional Challengers and no brand new type.
One reason why the "Flugbereitschaft" got rid of the Let 610s, VFW 614s and Hueys was to save costs by having a smaller and standarsized fleet of A310s, Challengers and Cougars.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Oryx
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:58 pm

In only took the number of passengers - 50 and "the gap between the Challenger and A310" from the article. The rest is guesswork. What lies in between a Challenger and an A310 with space for 50 VIPs? That should be A318, A319, BBJ, BBJ2. I do not know if the big Cessnas, Bombardiers etc. are big enough for 50 VIPs. But one thing is for sure - these planes will not be build in this decade - if ever.
 
A342
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting Oryx (Reply 18):
I do not know if the big Cessnas, Bombardiers etc. are big enough for 50 VIPs.

Bombardier offers corporate models of the CRJ series. However, even the CRJ 900 with a 50-seat interior would rather look like an airline aircraft, not a VIP aircraft.
Now the ACJ in the Privatair layout has only about 48 seats and the A318Elite is offered with 2 different interiors: 14 or 18 seats.

It will be interesting to see if the aircraft is really going to have 50 seats.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
A319XFW
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:11 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 15):
That said, the Challenger is an American product, even a north American.

Don't let the Canadians in here read that... The Challenger is originally from Canadair, now Bombardier of.... Canada!!

Quoting Columba (Reply 17):
So in that perspective the A318 Elite would be more likely then the A319CJ,

There's nothing stopping them getting an A319CJ with 1 to 6 ACT's, most of the current ones have 4, but 2 would also be possible, say.

[Edited 2006-01-19 19:12:40]
 
krisyyz
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 20):
Don't let the Canadians in here read that... The Challenger is originally from Canadair, now Bombardier of.... Canada!!

Thanks A319XFW!

My heart stopped for a second when I read that:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 15):
That said, the Challenger is an American product, even a north American

Krisyyz
 
A319XFW
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 21):

Well my Canadian friends do call me a wannabe Canuck Big grin
 
NoUFO
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 20):
Don't let the Canadians in here read that... The Challenger is originally from Canadair, now Bombardier of.... Canada!!

I know that Bombardier is a Canadian company for crying out loud, but since when is Canada not part of America or more precisely North America?

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 21):
Thanks A319XFW!

My heart stopped for a second when I read that:

*Aggh* I didn't say Challengers were build in the U.S. of America.
Maybe you thought your country was part of South America ... or Asia perhaps, but - hold onto your seat - it's in fact part of North America.  Wink

[Edited 2006-01-20 17:15:00]
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A319XFW
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:25 am

I guess you did say ", even North American" afterwards....

But if you say "American" that usually implies "United States of America", "North American" is different, but I think the Canadians like to be called Canadian and not American Big grin


 bouncy 
 
TheSonntag
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting CX747 (Reply 16):

I don't know whether EU public procurement rules actually would apply here (I guess not, since this is something highly political), but certainly offers would be taken from all known competitors... However, I guess that type ratings are more important than with civilian customers, as all pilots are members of the German Air Force, which have been trained by the GAF itself, so (while it certainly would be possible) training them on a new type seems to be rather unlikely for me...
 
PADSpot
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 25):
don't know whether EU public procurement rules actually would apply here (I guess not, since this is something highly political), but certainly offers would be taken from all known competitors... However, I guess that type ratings are more important than with civilian customers, as all pilots are members of the German Air Force, which have been trained by the GAF itself, so (while it certainly would be possible) training them on a new type seems to be rather unlikely for me...

A European-wide consideration of biddings for public procurement is generally required by law. Although they might me exceptions like urgent need, cultural reasons or procurements of a negligible value.

In case they want non-European manufacturers out of the race there are more subtle ways other than just excluding them from the bidding. Normally they would just build the RFQ around the desired product so that other suppliers cannot comply ...

But I personally would not like that. Gulfstream for instance also builds beautiful aircrafts, which would look nice in the Blue-GAF scheme ...
 
TheSonntag
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:47 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 26):

You are right, but the defense sector, just to give one example, is largely excluded from the rule... Therefore I am not so sure public procurement rules apply for directly political purchases of the head of government...

But even if they do, we all know that it is pretty easy to change the rules in a way that you get the planes you want...
 
Devilfish
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:12 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 3):
will not be bought because, whenever German Politicians fly out that far they usually carry a bigger entourage with them



Quoting Oryx (Reply 10):
Sounds more like A318/319 VIPs.



Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 11):
Which are of course built in Germany... I'm sure Humbert will make a few telephone calls as well.



Quoting Columba (Reply 12):
Would be great if they choose the A318 Elite...........

Fits the short to medium range and bigger space requirements, albeit at a slightly higher cost.

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 13):
Please not the A318 Elite..... Reasons to remain unsaid! Big grin

What have you got against your own, my friend? I'm sure the Elite could easily be configured to seat 50?

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 13):
(and is in current production)

Might this be a cause of concern in the near term? BTW, we still haven't seen performance forecast for the Elite.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
PADSpot
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:37 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 28):
BTW, we still haven't seen performance forecast for the Elite.

Range is said to be around 7400km. Enought to reach the New England states from central Europe and the entire Middle East. From the US it can reach any place in North America. I think those were the design goals ...
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:16 am

If the German Politicians heads are as swelled as many US politicians heads are, you better just go ahead and order a few A-380-800 VIP Whale-Jets and get it over with.  cloudnine 

They are going to need the extra room if you put 50 of them aboard.  bigthumbsup 
 
columba
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Thu May 04, 2006 11:30 pm

In the latest issue of the aviation magazine "Flug Revue" is an article about the Challenger replacement. It states that a new aircraft will be acquired around 2012 maybe earlier since there is a huge development in the business aviation business. The Challenger is heavily used and needs to be replaced soon.
Below of the article is a picture of US Airforce Gulfstream and below it says "In good company...35 nations uses Gulfstream jets for their VIP transport here a picture of a US Goverment aircraft". Sadly there is no other reference in the article about the Gulfstream, it only says that instead of one aircraft type it could be possible that a it could be a order of several memebers of one aircraft family that offers crew commonality but offers a good mix of long, medium and short haul flights.
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Devilfish
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Fri May 05, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 31):
Sadly there is no other reference in the article about the Gulfstream, it only says that instead of one aircraft type it could be possible that a it could be a order of several memebers of one aircraft family that offers crew commonality but offers a good mix of long, medium and short haul flights.

This sure seems like a soundbyte from the Airbus website. For more interesting bits on the much discussed future "Luftwaffe 1" and the trip here of Frau Merkel on board the unique A310 (would we see it relegated to second place?)..... German Chancellor Merkel--How Travelling To DC? (by RJpieces May 3 2006 in Civil Aviation) When Will Germany Get A New "AF 1"? (by TommyBP251b Apr 20 2006 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

Cheers,
DF
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
columba
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Fri May 05, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 32):
This sure seems like a soundbyte from the Airbus website. For more interesting bits on the much discussed future "Luftwaffe 1" and the trip here of Frau Merkel on board the unique A310 (would we see it relegated to second place?).....

The A310s will stay No.1 for a while. It is the Canadair Challenger that is due to replacement, soon. They are heavily used mostly on shorter and medium routes for which the A310 is too big or if not too many people are travelling on board.

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Luc Verkuringen

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columba
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:02 pm

Just read in another forum that AP reports that a decision will be made this year.
Favored is the acquisition of two A319s (although I can�t believe it since it would be a much bigger plane than the Challenger it is due to replace.
It is also mentioned in that report that the Goverment also has the unoffical offer of A340s long haul planes that Lufthansa acquiered from Swiss.


Can somebody confirm that LH flies ex Swiss A340s ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Devilfish
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:18 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 34):
Just read in another forum that AP reports that a decision will be made this year. Favored is the acquisition of two A319s

Hmmn.....with the Brits also leasing a BBJ long-term, I see a trend of erstwhile firmly opposed constituencies and finance ministries acquiescing to head-of-state travel requirements.

Quoting Columba (Reply 34):
the Goverment also has the unoffical offer of A340s long haul planes that Lufthansa acquiered from Swiss.

That would require conversion of the airliner interior to a VVIP layout. Did the A340-8000 at HAM ever get its interior outfitted? But that would probably be pushing luck too much. Be grateful for small blessings.  Smile
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
skyman
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 2):
I am not 100 % sure but if I remember correctly it was an engine fire shortly after take-off in Berlin-Tegel. The media covered it pretty dramatically especially the yellow press which you can always read in the Berlin Metro trains

I actually worked on that day and didn`t find it that dramatic as the media did. There was some smoke in the cabin and the pilots reacted very good. So since he still was close to the airport it was ok. Bu this electrical fire had nothing to do with the challenger. They are good planes and fit their purposes perfectly. I think Fischer just overreacted since he pis*** in his pants.
But if they want to buy new planes an A319 would be nice.
By the way the A310`s won`t be touched and the Challengers will never be used for MEDEVAC.
 
A342
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 34):
It is also mentioned in that report that the Goverment also has the unoffical offer of A340s long haul planes that Lufthansa acquiered from Swiss.


Can somebody confirm that LH flies ex Swiss A340s ?

That's extremely unlikely as LH is short on longhaul aircraft.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
PPVRA
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:32 am

Maybe they can make a deal with Embraer for Legacy 600s and a Lineage 1000?



Cheers

PS: Embraer is planning on 4 new Business jets. No idea when they plan on launching them, but they are already in the works.

[Edited 2006-07-09 23:41:11]
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columba
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:19 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 37):
That's extremely unlikely as LH is short on longhaul aircraft.

That is what I thought, too.
But maybe the deal is when LH takes delivery of its first 777-300ER as their A340 replacement  Silly

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):
Maybe they can make a deal with Embraer for Legacy 600s and a Lineage 1000?

Doubt that - A318Elite or A319 ACJ seem to be the most likely choice although I think they would be too big.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Devilfish
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:17 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 39):

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):
Maybe they can make a deal with Embraer for Legacy 600s and a Lineage 1000?
Doubt that - A318Elite or A319 ACJ seem to be the most likely choice although I think they would be too big.

Unlikely that a foreign company would be favoured, especially when the local offerings have better range and payload - not to mention the simpler deal facilitation.

The Elite and ACJ are a good combination, although it seems they have outgrown smaller aircraft, and are opting for flexibility in case two are required at the same time.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
fumanchewd
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:31 pm

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 1):

Would the Global Express fit into the �20M price-tag?



$47 million for a BD700 XRS.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
columba
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:34 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 40):
The Elite and ACJ are a good combination, although it seems they have outgrown smaller aircraft, and are opting for flexibility in case two are required at the same time.

Gulfstreams were mentioned before as a replacement for the Challengers, but I doubt that they will be ordered if they go for the Elite or ACJ.
Which would be a pitty since there would be no small aircraft anymore but only larger Airbuses.
So I can think that the Challengers - that are not so bad after all - will continue to serve with the military as a small transport and medevac aircraft like it is used now, too and the VIPs will only fly on the Airbuses.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Devilfish
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 41):
$47 million for a BD700 XRS.

That's already the list price for the Elite!

Quoting Columba (Reply 42):
Gulfstreams were mentioned before as a replacement for the Challengers,

So this is still very much uncertain?.....

Quoting Columba (Reply 34):
Favored is the acquisition of two A319s
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
columba
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:30 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 43):
So this is still very much uncertain?.....

In May I have read an article in a German aviation magazine about the replacement of the Challengers with the picture of a Gulfstream V and a small remark to it.
This Sunday there was an article in the news magazine "Der Spiegel" mentioning the A318 and A319.
This article did not seem very accurate though. First of all it as stated that the A318 is flown by the French President secondly that the Goverment has an inofficial offer from Lufthansa for an ex Swiss A340-300 which I doubt since LH is short on long haul aircraft.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
NoUFO
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:55 am

How about the all new Grob spn?


http://www.grob-spn.com
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fumanchewd
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:11 pm

I've always believed that the best bang for the buck is the CL605/604 (at $27M) with a max fuel available payload range of 4000nm at 419 or a CL850ER(at $28M) 3100nm at 416. If there is alot of international travel, then the range may not be sufficient so they would HAVE to go with the G550 or Global. As for the Elite, I haven't heard any of the details concerning range, but it wouldn't match either one of those. The BBJ2 ($70M) has a max fuel with available payload range of 5620 nm at a speed of 446. The A319CJ ($55M) has a max with available payload range of 5085nm at 439. The G550 ($47M) spanks them with a range of 6698nm at 453 and the Global ($47) 6020nm at 479.

So I believe that if they do alot of international then they either need the G550 or the Global as the BBJ2 is too expensive.

If they do not need to hop around the globe non-stop then they have to decide if they need the extra space. A 319 is reasonable in price but if something that big is overkill, then a CL850 or CL605 is the best buy.

Does anyone have any idea what the range and cost on the Elite is supposed to be? If it has the range of a BBJ2 with a better price then it might be something to look at.

Edit: Ooops. I actually know that the Elite is $45M. Still do not know the range.

[Edited 2006-07-12 05:14:22]
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fumanchewd
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:17 pm

I left out the DA7X ($39M) because I have heard some horror stories concerning parts and service from Dassault. Other than that, it might be a good bird.
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PADSpot
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:13 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 45):
How about the all new Grob spn?

Too small and not enough range. They need something for transatlantics ..

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 47):
I left out the DA7X ($39M)

And that might even one of the most likely solutions. A nice way to again practice the German-French friendship and a good plane for minor ministers on long haul journeys
 
fumanchewd
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RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment

Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:26 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 48):

And that might even one of the most likely solutions. A nice way to again practice the German-French friendship and a good plane for minor ministers on long haul journeys

I believe that they would be extremely foolish to allow political influences to factor too much into their decision making process. They need to first decide what they need the aircraft to do and then find the best priced/quality one to fill those specifications. Size, range, and cost should be the only factors, not German-French friendship.
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